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RR&Co, my control panel & the basics of automation


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Guest Digital

Thanks for all the help. This evening did my first foray into RRandCo with the demo/offline version while I had a quiet moment at work. Must say so far so good.

 

Another question which I apologize immediately for being off-topic but do you know if and how one can wire LEDs to the LDT RS-8? I would like to built an LED panel for the benefit of friends and visitors. BTW, where did you buy your LDT RS-8? Promise I will retire to the quiet corner after this...... unsure.gif

 

 

Hi Kenneth,

 

I got my LDT RS8 Feedback module from Digitrains.

There is no facility on the module to connect LED's to.

 

John

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I buy my RS8's & LS-DEC-NS which are signal modules direct from LDT in Germany. They are very quick and always willing to help if you have any questions. The LS-DEC-NS are ideal for British signals up to three aspect and useful for other projects such as route indicators etc.

 

Look here for their products. http://www.ldt-infocenter.com/english/home_frame_e.htm

 

As John has said, there is no facility to connect LED's to the RS8's.

 

Regards

 

Andy Jack

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I buy my RS8's & LS-DEC-NS which are signal modules direct from LDT in Germany. They are very quick and always willing to help if you have any questions. The LS-DEC-NS are ideal for British signals up to three aspect and useful for other projects such as route indicators etc.

 

Look here for their products. http://www.ldt-infocenter.com/english/home_frame_e.htm

 

As John has said, there is no facility to connect LED's to the RS8's.

 

Regards

 

Andy Jack

 

I found myself lead to the RS8s through SWD and their listing of ESU products. Now that I have taken a look at the LDT site, I think I learn that there are versions aimed at Lenz feedback bus, and another at the s88 bus. Seeing that the ECoS handles s88 inputs it seems a good choice. If you are already using RS8s, Andy, they are presumably of the Lenz variety, so does this mean that you will have to change them if you move over to ESU?? Or am I missing something?

 

Cheers

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Hi Geoff,

 

Yes, its a system change all the way. The RS8's will go but for a while I will run a dual system through RR&Co with the track control being taken care of by the ECoS and feed back via the RS8's and LZV100.

 

Not sure yet if I will use the S88 side of things as I have to sort out completely in my mind which way is best to go as there a few options in the ESU ECoS world with a few new things on the horizon. The ECoS detector looks interesting but not 100% sure of its capabilities yet. The Railcom side of things seem a little limited at the moment for what I want.

 

But I have to get my sticky digital interface on the hardware yet before going to phase 35468283846782373782646580308466365478 :lol:

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I am probably getting ahead of myself now as I don't have any actual block detectors, no interface for them anyway, and no interface between my digital controller and the PC. However, I am fascinated by the program, so have created a semaphore signal image, set up a starting signal at one of the stations, tied it to the pointwork necessary for a clear road, set a schedule starting in the station block and continuing through three more blocks to complete a loop of track back to the station. I have assigned a train to the station block, and shown it occupied. I then hit start for the schedule in the dispatcher window and the second block immediately shows a train in it - I think that is the software just reserving that block. I hit the first block detector icon to show the block as no longer occupied - but nothing else happens. I have tried the simulator, but that doesn't do anything.

 

Am I just fooling myself, thinking that I will see a train image go from block to block around the dispatcher window, or am I just doing something wrong?

 

I wish I had a PC interface. I think that I will purchase an ESU controller, but there do not seem to be any available anywhere at this time.

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Guest Digital

I am probably getting ahead of myself now as I don't have any actual block detectors, no interface for them anyway, and no interface between my digital controller and the PC. However, I am fascinated by the program, so have created a semaphore signal image, set up a starting signal at one of the stations, tied it to the pointwork necessary for a clear road, set a schedule starting in the station block and continuing through three more blocks to complete a loop of track back to the station. I have assigned a train to the station block, and shown it occupied. I then hit start for the schedule in the dispatcher window and the second block immediately shows a train in it - I think that is the software just reserving that block. I hit the first block detector icon to show the block as no longer occupied - but nothing else happens. I have tried the simulator, but that doesn't do anything.

 

Am I just fooling myself, thinking that I will see a train image go from block to block around the dispatcher window, or am I just doing something wrong?

 

I wish I had a PC interface. I think that I will purchase an ESU controller, but there do not seem to be any available anywhere at this time.

 

 

Geoff

 

Here is a quick example done in offline mode.

 

A train is allocated to Block B2 and the occupancy detector for that block set to show the block is occupied.

 

I have then started a schedule form B2 through B7 and beyond. The signal before Block 7 turns Green and the software reserves Block 7.

 

I then click on the occupancy detector of Block 7 to show the train moving from Block 2 to Block 7 this then shows Block 7 occupied. Block 2

is still showing occupied as part of the train is still in the block.

 

When the train has fully left Block 2 I click on its occupancy detector to show the block is now unoccupied

 

 

Hope this is of Help

John

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Hi,

 

I have been using RR&Co for about three months (Gold version) and have really only just got to grips with the basics.

 

Having read the manual a number of times it is great to discover this forum as I have found the official forum is only of help when something goes really wrong.

 

Now that I have found you guys I will be reading all the posts to try and pick up all the help I can as so far I have been working in isolation.

 

Dave

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Geoff

 

Here is a quick example done in offline mode.

 

Hope this is of Help

John

 

Thanks for the illustrations, John. I have now discovered Run with Interlock and automatic reverse. Things still only run in the Switchboard Window, but with the simulator on, I can see trains running around my virtual layout with the Train Controller seemingly enjoying itself as much as I do with the real thing. All I need now is an interface to the PC. I will have to wait though, if I am to move over to an ESU machine as there don't seem to be any available at the moment.

 

Cheers

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Hi Geoff,

 

The simulator is a rather clever little trick. It does give you a chance to see what happens to all the elements in a schedule to see if every thing runs as it says on the tin.

 

But, don't depend on it to test schedules or running multiple schedules thinking it is like it is on the layout. There are a few factors to take into consideration. One being the oddities that a train has that the calibration of the loco has not quite taken into account.

 

I ran a six schedule operation that has six trains all running at once with conflicting routes, waiting points and a loco that goes from a siding in to a loop to allow the passing of a train then runs up to the engine shed via the turntable and into a storage track. It ran without fault on the simulator but the acceleration of some of the trains and the lack of resistive wheel sets on all of my coaches at the time allowed a route to release under a train and it set off down two different parallel tracks at once. Crash, bang wallop as the song says. :O

 

All solved now and I have this schedule routine operated by what I call my show off button. :icon_wow:

 

It is impressive see all this happen with only one mouse click. Just like being a 4mm train spotter :lol:

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Greetings Dave, welcome to the funny farm and the world of RR&Co.

 

So don't forget, you are not alone. Tell us all how you are getting on and if you do get into a pickle we are all here to have a good laugh. No, not really we will try our best to help. :)

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Hi Geoff,

 

The simulator is a rather clever little trick. It does give you a chance to see what happens to all the elements in a schedule to see if every thing runs as it says on the tin.

 

But, don't depend on it to test schedules or running multiple schedules thinking it is like it is on the layout. There are a few factors to take into consideration. One being the oddities that a train has that the calibration of the loco has not quite taken into account.

 

I ran a six schedule operation that has six trains all running at once with conflicting routes, waiting points and a loco that goes from a siding in to a loop to allow the passing of a train then runs up to the engine shed via the turntable and into a storage track. It ran without fault on the simulator but the acceleration of some of the trains and the lack of resistive wheel sets on all of my coaches at the time allowed a route to release under a train and it set off down two different parallel tracks at once. Crash, bang wallop as the song says. ohmy.gif

 

All solved now and I have this schedule routine operated by what I call my show off button. icon_wow.gif

 

It is impressive see all this happen with only one mouse click. Just like being a 4mm train spotter laugh.gif

 

 

Hi TTG

 

That sounds awesome. Its exactly what I am aiming for (not the crash bang bit I can do that already) but I dont have quite enough continuous track laid yet to allow more than two trains moving at the same time.

 

Could you tell us how you launch each of the six trains. I assume the button triggers a sequence and the complex single train movement you describe will be a succesion of schedules for that train but if for example you have two trains in a station and there are two tracks how do you get them to start simultaneously or almost. Do you start a schedule for train 2 as an operation at the start of the schedule for train 1 or when train 1 clears or enters a block

 

I guess I will be able to work it out when the time comes but it would sure be hepful to know your solution

 

Kind Regards

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Hi John, its very simple really.

 

First put a push button on your switch board. That's the easy bit. Don't worry it all easy really.

 

In the connection tab make sure the mode is set to perform operations. OK ?

 

Then in the operation tab select schedules in the drop down box of the operations tab. Yes ?

 

Then just select the schedules you want by selecting it and then pushing the add button further down. Easy yes ?

 

But this is the bit you need to engage the grey matter for. When you have a list of schedules selected and in the right hand box of the window, you need to put them in some form of order. This can be done using the up and down buttons.

 

Why I expect you are asking ? Well if you have two trains both heading into a converging track, conflicting route, you will want to tell the software which one will have priority. As you know a schedule has a look ahead feature to reserve blocks so if the first schedule reserves the block that both trains are trying to occupy at once, the train set in motion by the second schedule will naturally pause at a predefined position, signal at red controlling the entrance to the block, until it is clear and released by the first train.

 

Yes, no. So the order of the schedules in the right box is important to get the trains running in the right order. Six trains run by pushing the button on my layout with three of them all having to stop due to conflicts in the routes with the the other three out of the six.

 

I'm going to tweak this to improve the visual aspect and introduce another conflict that involves opposing trains at a double slip at the western end of my station. All that is need is to move a schedule down the list to delay slightly the departure of a train so by causing the conflict.

 

As I said above, its the extra bits of in schedules and calibration of trains that effect the simulator and by tweaking the weight settings for different trains you can get some excellent effects that the simulator cannot handle in the off line mode and you need to see these for real to make sure they all work when you have so many trains running.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Andy Jack

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Andy, thanks for the reply and info here. At least running the simulator makes me get on with configuring all of the detectors and blocks properly. It has also made me think about how I will physically connect up the occupancy detectors. So far, I have not found any snags, so once I have purchased some, I should be able to get them in circuit fairly quickly.

 

Talking of blocks, I have two large areas of pointwork - one at each end of my junction station. At the one end there are some 20 turnouts covering a distance of over 4ft for 4 parallel tracks. The other end is shorter at just a couple of feet or so, but still has 9 turnouts as 4 tracks come down to 2 and a junction diverges. The question is should I be looking at putting a detector or two or more in there somewhere to show occupancy over some of the turnouts given the distance covered.

 

What I am thinking is that I could have a light engine crossing from one track to another staying within the overall pointwork, and I (rather RR&Co) would not know where it had got to unless it left the pointwork altogether to reach an adjacent block, and that would not be necessary for the locomotive to complete its operation.

 

Thoughts?

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Hi Geoff,

 

I am in a similar situation as you with point work and a single loco can get lost in it all from a software point of view if you don't take the required precautions.

 

Yes the software if you read all the manual should be able to cope with routes in a simple situation but where there are multiple routes from A to B or multiple routes through points, it can get a bit bent out of shape and go on strike and lead to the crash bang wallop situation.

 

Ways to get over it. as you mention, fit occupancy detectors to your point work. It takes a bit of working out especially if you have double slips in the middle of complex point work. Look carefully at your pointwork, work out all the possible routes and then see about fitting detectors in strategic places.

 

I totally isolate my double slips from all the rest of the point work and fit a single detector to each one. There are so many routes that can be taken through one I found it best to do this. Of course some one else may have a different opinion on this but it works best for me.

 

But it can get very detector intensive as you need to fit detectors either side as well of the slip if there is not a block that the slip leads into.

 

This then goes onto the requirement for resistive wheel sets on stock. If you have long sections of point work you can loose a train in there as well as a single loco. For me the resistive wheel sets and detectors in point work is a must.

 

There is a knock on effect as well with signalling as well a block release for automatic operation if you are not careful with all this. Signals can be at green even if the path ahead is blocked. Also look out for parallel routes and the way signals are configure. This is were the conditions tab comes in useful in setting up your signalling.

 

Think about it all and see what you can work out from it. Look at your point work and see in your mind what is going on. It takes a bit of grey matter to do it but all of a sudden it will click and then you have the key to working out what is going on with your own layout.

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PUSH BUTTONS: Thanks TTG.............the penny has dropped.......I have been running all my test schedules from the block diagram......in fairness its typically one train starting a schedule that is actually a sequence of maybe 10 movements as it runs round or shunts.....then I started a second train as a successor to a a schedule in the middle of the sequence. A Push button and fine tuning of the start delay makes a ton of sense.

 

As an aside what are the possible uses of the contact options in Push Button Properties?

 

POINT DETECTION: RR&Co doesnt care about the length of blocks they could be just 1". So you can insert them (electrically isolated obviously) between two series of points......they then must become intermediate blocks in your schedules thus breaking up the length of the routes and not compromising TCs train detection (deduction) system......in the case of your light engine Geoff if they were long enough they would be a destination or start block and then you can move it in and out automatically. Make the max length the actual length so nothing longer can stop there and make them critical sections so they cant be entered unless the following block is clear...................I do this in a very small way in the branch but have yet to try it at the terminus (track has to be laid!)

 

With RR&Co there are inevitably 3 or 4 ways of solving the problem...........eventuallybiggrin.gif

 

Kind Regards

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One of the problems of having the mini blocks in schedules is that when for example a train approaches a station platform and has to go through all the point work and the platform is blocked by another train, the train will stop in the mini block and not in the block preceding it which is big enough to take the whole train.

 

Then you have to add another level of protection by locking exits to blocks with conditions, such as a platform being occupied. Its a multi solution problem. I used the mini block bit and went back to only detectors in routes. Same occupancy detectors, just removed the blocks from the track plan, dispatcher.

 

I found it got too complicated with all the possible routes, blocks, locks, conditions, extra flagman etc with the mini blocks. I never did reach the end of all the extra programming to get it to work fully. Too many glitches, lost the plot etc.

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Hi Guys

 

Have you seen this in the RR&Co Forum.....Its under "Locos and Loco Depots" and is an elegant way of having control of say 4 locos in a siding without having to have 4 occupancy detectors..................you have 4 blocks and 4 flagmen and conditions......very cool

 

 

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1664162/Arkiv.zip

 

 

There is also a good thread about occupancy detection and points

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Yes, I read this and I like what it does. But on a through station where a train is waiting to enter a track that is occupied by a train that leaves in the other direct, it change a few things.

 

The article is more to do with joining trains and entering occupied blocks to put a loco on a train to take control of it.

 

But, as has been said, so many ways to do things and we have different setups that require different solutions.

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One of the problems of having the mini blocks in schedules is that when for example a train approaches a station platform and has to go through all the point work and the platform is blocked by another train, the train will stop in the mini block and not in the block preceding it which is big enough to take the whole train.

 

Then you have to add another level of protection by locking exits to blocks with conditions, such as a platform being occupied. Its a multi solution problem. I used the mini block bit and went back to only detectors in routes. Same occupancy detectors, just removed the blocks from the track plan, dispatcher.

 

I found it got too complicated with all the possible routes, blocks, locks, conditions, extra flagman etc with the mini blocks. I never did reach the end of all the extra programming to get it to work fully. Too many glitches, lost the plot etc.

 

I was so excited about my discovery on RR&Co that I didnt see you had already replied TTG.

 

I am sure your comments were correct for 5.8 but now that 7.0 has introduced critical sections I am not convinced. Make the mini block a critical section (one entry in block properties) and thats it...............if the platform block is occupied by train 1, train 2 will not be allowed to enter the mini block.....it will stop clear of the pointwork in " the block preceding it which is big enough to take the whole train" rolleyes.gif

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Really. V5.8 had critical sections in it and I had the same problems then. Did you get this to work as I tried it in the middle of point work and it did not solve the problem. That's one of the reason why I went back to occupancy detector without blocks in the middle of point work, almost.

 

I just retried using critical marked blocks in the simulator applied to my track plan and it allows the train to enter the mini block and stops the train in there, not the preceding block.

 

I have two small blocks about 12 inches long only so I can stop a loco or train at a signal before a set of points at a complex section of track. I toyed over this for a while and wondered if trains did stop on top of points at signals and then I thought they must in tight areas where land, space were limited.

 

A very nice man on the Bluebell railway showed me on the indicator board a red light that came on to show that a train was sat on top of the point work he controlled and not to try to change it. I think it locked the point any way but it was there to show the signal man that the points had rather a lot of weight on it.

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Really. V5.8 had critical sections in it and I had the same problems then. Did you get this to work as I tried it in the middle of point work and it did not solve the problem. That's one of the reason why I went back to occupancy detector without blocks in the middle of point work, almost.

 

I just retried using critical marked blocks in the simulator applied to my track plan and it allows the train to enter the mini block and stops the train in there, not the preceding block.

 

 

 

Nothing like a challenge on a Wet Saturday Afternoon ................yes it worksrolleyes.gif

 

I took screen shots.....the whole 9 yards but RMWeb is currently sulking and wont let me upload them

 

I created a simple 4 block track plan with a schedule starting in Block 1 and ending in Block 4. Checked the schedule worked by putting loco1 in block 1 and starting the schedule with the simulator and loco 1 finished as expected in Block 4

 

Put loco 2 in Block 1 and started the schedule.......loco 2 stops in Block 3 because block 4 is reserved for loco 1 (occupied)

 

Changed Block 3 to a critical section............and you get a horizontal blue line right thru the block

 

Put loco 2 back in Block 1......terminated the schedule and started it again

 

Loco 2 stops in Block 2..................... QED

 

The pictures were much easier to understandangry.gif

 

 

Regards

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Hi John,

 

Thanks for the explanation but had tried all that with no success.

 

Its odd really as my layout files don't always play as they should. I wish I knew why one block in particular does not behave as it should and trains constantly over shoot, undershoot and generally misbehave. I have deleted it, added a new version of it, change settings in it, talked nice to it and bought it chocolates but it still will not play ball.

 

Have now called this block Anne as it behaves just like a girl I once knew years ago as she was totally unpredictable and different from every once else.

 

It has been suggested a few times by others posting on the RR&Co forum that it is not always a good idea to upgrade the software when there are major version changes like from V5.8 to V7 as the data does not always readily transfer. Settings etc seem to be ok but its something deeper in the code that gets screwed up and sends things a little ga ga.

 

But I will persevere as I have a workable solution already with mine by doing as I have already said. I'll have a go as well when I get home to see what happens for real on the layout as the sim as I said the other night is not always the best way to test things. Only got another two weeks away before I can play again. :(

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Thats really weird. My first thought was the occupancy detectors if its overshooting but that wont wash if you are using the simulator. Dumb question but when you deleted the block did you save, close down,have a glass of wine (very important part of the solution) and then reboot

 

Have you asked Mr Freiwald?..............whatever good luck.....let us know how you get on

 

Kind Regards

 

 

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Hi john.

 

Yes, many a glass of wine was used in the making of the movie, my block and other animals.

 

Rebooted, booted out of the window, booted back in. Still the same.

 

As for Mr Friewald, well its one of those problems that cannot happen according to him. There are times when the excellent service offered on the forum falls apart as he some times lives in a world devoid of faults with his software being perfect.

 

One of the problems of perfect software is it does not take into account the users configuration of which there must be many out there. This I fear is my problem and in the long run it will mean a rebuild of my layout in the software, not for real. Too many little niggles are becoming a headache and some simple tests at times proves it is my current set up.

 

I am going to persevere for now until I take the plunge and go ECoS. Then as it is a new DCC system, I will do the same and start from scratch with my layout files. This then will be it and hopefully some if not all of the faults will have gone. None of the old upgraded files will be in there to casue problems.

 

Oh well, back to the land of dreams. Now where is that bottle :wacko:

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