Problems modelling pre BR eras

[Dorsetmike]

Just a thought, has any  manufacturer brought out RTR locos or stock which did not make it into BR livery? Having that one less livery option seems to kill any chance of older locos being produced.. I can't recall any in N gauge, (except maybe kits) I'm thinking mainly about loco classes scrapped before 1948. I model the SR 1930s and would love an Adams 4-4-0 or an Adams A12 0-4-2, at 83 my scratch building skills have deteriorated.

From reading this and other railway forums it would seem that the vast majority of layouts and posts in general feature BR period and later and steam is becoming a minority.

Looking at the Farish 2018 list tends to reinforce this view. I know the N Gauge Society ask for members modelling info, how about other clubs/societies; has this ever been published as percentages?

[298]

NRM/Bachmann "City"....?

 

(*starts stopwatch.....)

[Nick Holliday]

What about Triang's singles, GWR Dean and the Caledonian unique example? Hornby then produced the GWR 4-4-0 County, that succumbed to the cutters' torch in the thirties. How could one forget the ubiquitous GWR 0-4-0T, one of the most useful prototypes ever!

[Skinnylinny]

NRM/Bachmann "City"....?

 

(*starts stopwatch.....)

 

Arguably, one of them did make it into BR livery... albeit as an April Fool's joke!

 

[Worsdell forever]

The LNER P2s were completely rebuilt before BR and this didn't stop Hornby producing one.

[Edwardian]

Just a thought, has any  manufacturer brought out RTR locos or stock which did not make it into BR livery? Having that one less livery option seems to kill any chance of older locos being produced.. I can't recall any in N gauge, (except maybe kits) I'm thinking mainly about loco classes scrapped before 1948. I model the SR 1930s and would love an Adams 4-4-0 or an Adams A12 0-4-2, at 83 my scratch building skills have deteriorated.

 

From reading this and other railway forums it would seem that the vast majority of layouts and posts in general feature BR period and later and steam is becoming a minority.

 

Looking at the Farish 2018 list tends to reinforce this view. I know the N Gauge Society ask for members modelling info, how about other clubs/societies; has this ever been published as percentages?

 

They are certainly rare.

 

In 99% of the cases, the manufacturers' criteria seem to be that the prototype must have made it to British Railways days, or to preservation, or both.  Those that made it only to preservation are generally limited to high-profile cases preserved prior to Nationalisation, e.g. City of Truro and the Stirling Single, plus these models were tie-ins with the owners.

 

The apparent fetish for producing 'as preserved' rather than 'in service' condition models with some of the older liveries is often a function of the fact that, despite wearing an older, say pre-Grouping, livery, the locomotive is often  physically in a rebuilt state, the state she was when withdrawn from BR service. 

 

Even with an older example of preservation, the City of Truro, you are not on safe ground; she never ran in service in the pre-1906 livery in Indian Red frames in her preserved physical configuration. 

 

Aside from such 'exotics', the need to justify costs by selling in volume to BR-era modellers, dictates that the prototype must have seen service with BR and the tooling must generally be BR-era compatible.  This has two consequences.  First locomotives that did not make it to BR days, generally, will not be modelled. Every GW branch line from the 1870s to the 1930s actually needs a 517 class 0-4-2, but, because they were replaced by the 4800 (or 14XX as the Western region modeller thinks of it) class from the mid-thirties, there is little or no prospect of a RTR version.

 

So some very common types, even in the Grouping era, will remain unavailable.

 

The second consequence is that one can only back-date the liveries to the date of the last re-build.  E.g. the LBSC E4 class is represented in umber c.1911 (IIRC), because that is as far back as Bachmann can go given its BR-compatible tooling.  The J72 (as LNER and BR people think of it) will only go as far back as a 1914 batch, again, I suspect, to be compatible with the later state of the class. 

 

LSW locomotives suffer particularly badly, because Urie tended to rebuild, so you cannot use a Hornby Black Motor or T9 pre-WW1. The same is true with the Hornby ex-GE Claud.  The higher boiler pitches of the re-builds often means that the motors sit too high to accommodate a back-dated body shell, so Hornby couldn't produce back-dated versions even if they wanted to, and nor can you (EDIT: without considerable extra work) . Even the Radial in Adams livery is as preserved, though relatively easy to back-date.  The only LSW RTR loco so far available that a manufacturer can accurately re-livery to pre-WW1 days is Hornby's M7.

 

There is no sense complaining about this state of affairs, that is the way of the model railway world, because nostalgic Baby Boomers have dominated the market for many years (and, so the media tell us, have all the houses/money/pensions etc that we younger folk don't!).  It's just a fact of life, but it does mean that you have to cultivate an awareness of what will and what won't back-date and to be creative, supplement with kits etc.  Nothing wrong with expanding out from a small RTR core; it's a good way to learn to model. 

 

See it as an opportunity to be creative and end up with a loco stud that isn't the same as everyone else's. 

Edited January 11, 2018 by Edwardian

[Dunsignalling]

Arguably, one of them did make it into BR livery... albeit as an April Fool's joke!

 

She looked rather good in it, too. IMHO.

[Edwardian]

She looked rather good in it, too. IMHO.

 

Most things look good in LNWR livery, yes.

[Dunsignalling]

They are certainly rare.

 

In 99% of the cases, the manufacturers' criteria seem to be that the prototype must have made it to British Railways days, or to preservation, or both.  Those that made it only to preservation are generally limited to high-profile cases preserved prior to Nationalisation, e.g. City of Truro and the Stirling Single, plus these models were tie-ins with the owners.

 

The apparent fetish for producing 'as preserved' rather than 'in service' condition models with some of the older liveries is often a function of the fact that, despite wearing an older, say pre-Grouping, livery, the locomotive is often  physically in a rebuilt state, the state she was when withdrawn from BR service. 

 

Even with an older example of preservation, the City of Truro, you are not on safe ground; she never ran in service in the pre-1906 livery in Indian Red frames in her preserved physical configuration. 

 

Aside from such 'exotics', the need to justify costs by selling in volume to BR-era modellers, dictates that the prototype must have seen service with BR and the tooling must generally be BR-era compatible.  This has two consequences.  First locomotives that did not make it to BR days, generally, will not be modelled. Every GW branch line from the 1870s to the 1930s actually needs a 517 class 0-4-2, but, because they were replaced by the 4800 (or 14XX as the Western region modeller thinks of it) class from the mid-thirties, there is little or no prospect of a RTR version.

 

So some very common types, even in the Grouping era, will remain unavailable.

 

The second consequence is that one can only back-date the liveries to the date of the last re-build.  E.g. the LBSC E4 class is represented in umber c.1911 (IIRC), because that is as far back as Bachmann can go given its BR-compatible tooling.  The J72 (as LNER and BR people think of it) will only go as far back as a 1914 batch, again, I suspect, to be compatible with the later state of the class. 

 

LSW locomotives suffer particularly badly, because Urie tended to rebuild, so you cannot use a Hornby Black Motor or T9 pre-WW1. The same is true with the Hornby ex-GE Claud.  The higher boiler pitches of the re-builds often means that the motors sit too high to accommodate a back-dated body shell, so Hornby couldn't produce back-dated versions even if they wanted to, and nor can you (EDIT: without considerable extra work) . Even the Radial in Adams livery is as preserved, though relatively easy to back-date.  The only LSW RTR loco so far available that a manufacturer can accurately re-livery to pre-WW1 days is Hornby's M7.

 

There is no sense complaining about this state of affairs, that is the way of the model railway world, because nostalgic Baby Boomers have dominated the market for many years (and, so the media tell us, have all the houses/money/pensions etc that we younger folk don't!).  It's just a fact of life, but it does mean that you have to cultivate an awareness of what will and what won't back-date and to be creative, supplement with kits etc.  Nothing wrong with expanding out from a small RTR core; it's a good way to learn to model. 

 

See it as an opportunity to be creative and end up with a loco stud that isn't the same as everyone else's. 

Speaking as one of the aforesaid baby boomers, I didn't see any reason why Hornby couldn't have designed the 700 and T9 mechanisms to accept pure Drummond bodyshells as well as the taller rebuilt format.

 

Unfortunately there seems to be completely unrealistic expectation in some quarters that a model 4-4-0 should pull "prototypical" loads on a train set. They will given prototypical operating conditions but they can't reasonably be expected to pull 8 or 9 coaches round a No.2 radius curve on a 1-in-30 gradient. IIRC the permitted load for a T9, unassisted, on the 1-in-37 from Exeter St Davids to Central, about as close as one can get to a prototypical example of that, equated to 3 coaches and a 4-wheel van. 

 

In order that their products don't get attacked for not meeting hopeless expectations, Hornby stuff everything to the gunwales with metal but it shouldn't have to be like that.

 

John

[Dunsignalling]

Most things look good in LNWR livery, yes.

Imagine the furore if they'd changed the nameplates to LNWR pattern, too.

[Edwardian]

Speaking as one of the aforesaid baby boomers, I didn't see any reason why Hornby couldn't have designed the 700 and T9 mechanisms to accept pure Drummond bodyshells as well as the taller rebuilt format.

 

Unfortunately there seems to be completely unrealistic expectation in some quarters that a model 4-4-0 should pull "prototypical" loads on a train set. They will given prototypical operating conditions but they can't reasonably be expected to pull 8 or 9 coaches round a No.2 radius curve on a 1-in-30 gradient. IIRC the permitted load for a T9, unassisted, on the 1-in-37 from Exeter St Davids to Central, about as close as one can get to a prototypical example of that, equated to 3 coaches and a 4-wheel van. 

 

In order that their products don't get attacked for not meeting hopeless expectations, Hornby stuff everything to the gunwales with metal but it shouldn't have to be like that.

 

John

 

Good point concerning 'trainset' pressures affecting product design.

 

All joking about Baby Boomers aside, my anecdotal experience is that, once one steps outside generational nostalgia driven mainstream and looks at periods beyond memory, the age range of people modelling these subjects is very broad indeed.  A recent exchange on RMWeb saw a Baby Boomer, a Generation X-er and a Millenial stating in turn that they were pre-Grouping modellers.  Certainly the pre-Grouping section of RMWeb appears to attract a nice mix of folk of all ages, and is mercifully free of that condescension with which one generation can sometimes treat another. 

 

Life is fun outside the mainstream!

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...From reading this and other railway forums it would seem that the vast majority of layouts and posts in general feature BR period and later and steam is becoming a minority...

 

Could be true of N gauge, in which the post steam traction looks and works much better in model form than steam.

 

 

Just a thought, has any  manufacturer brought out RTR locos or stock which did not make it into BR livery? Having that one less livery option seems to kill any chance of older locos being produced.. I can't recall any in N gauge, (except maybe kits) I'm thinking mainly about loco classes scrapped before 1948. I model the SR 1930s and would love an Adams 4-4-0 or an Adams A12 0-4-2,

Add to above, ROCKET!

 

If we confine ourselves to the more recent productions, then there are a select few: DP1, Lion, Kestrel, the City 4-4-0 already mentioned, and the eagerly anticipated (by me at least!) Stirling Single. And the Ivatt C1 is a very near miss, going extinct in BR service by 1950.

[298]

Arguably, one of them did make it into BR livery... albeit as an April Fool's joke!

32 minutes (although to accurately model it in that livery you'd have to only paint one side and remove the motor).

[MarcD]

There is one O gauge loco that hits the mark and that's only because Dapol have brought out a number of versions of the same loco. Their Terrier comes in both A and AX versions and also there are other exchangeable parts so you can pull bits off and add things on. The A's were all rebuilt either by the LBSCR or SR well before they got to BR.

 

Marc  

[Spitfire2865]

Id think one of the big issues is the lack of anything easily comparable.  With something in preservation, you can take all the photos, measurements, and paint samples as you want.  For us lowly PreGrouping modellers, we have to make do with sometimes basic drawings, limited photos of varying timeframes, and lacking scratch-aids.

Id love to build a CR 670 class as I love the look of it, but I cant find anything better than a basic side view line drawing! Let alone making it to RTR quality levels.  No wonder the major manufacturers wont try it.

[Zomboid]

Id think one of the big issues is the lack of anything easily comparable.  With something in preservation, you can take all the photos, measurements, and paint samples as you want.  For us lowly PreGrouping modellers, we have to make do with sometimes basic drawings, limited photos of varying timeframes, and lacking scratch-aids.

Id love to build a CR 670 class as I love the look of it, but I cant find anything better than a basic side view line drawing! Let alone making it to RTR quality levels.  No wonder the major manufacturers wont try it.

 

But surely that's an advantage? No one alive will be able to come over and start a sentence about your model with "I think you'll find...".

[MarcD]

The challenge is the attraction of modelling pre-1923 that and the fact that you get more colour running around on your layout. We are taking our main layout in its Furness form to Bristol,in May, and the NEC, in November. Ironically later Furness locos have less information in them than the really early ones as they bought in their locos from Sharp Stewart's where alot of the drawings still exist. Other rolling stock is a little challenging as most of the info was burnt when British railways pulled out of the works in Barrow.

 

Marc       

[Northmoor]

She looked rather good in it, too. IMHO.

I can still recall the two pages of froth in Steam Railway magazine.  One of the best April Fools jokes ever pulled in the world of railways.

[BlueLightning]

There is one O gauge loco that hits the mark and that's only because Dapol have brought out a number of versions of the same loco. Their Terrier comes in both A and AX versions and also there are other exchangeable parts so you can pull bits off and add things on. The A's were all rebuilt either by the LBSCR or SR well before they got to BR.

 

Marc  

 

Except number 54 Waddon! Which was never rebuilt as an A1x and saw service until 1962 as a departmental engine.

 

Gary

[The Stationmaster]

Arguably, one of them did make it into BR livery... albeit as an April Fool's joke!

 

 

Agreed - but only on one side, the other side was not repainted and remained in green.

[kevinlms]

They are certainly rare.

 

In 99% of the cases, the manufacturers' criteria seem to be that the prototype must have made it to British Railways days, or to preservation, or both.  Those that made it only to preservation are generally limited to high-profile cases preserved prior to Nationalisation, e.g. City of Truro and the Stirling Single, plus these models were tie-ins with the owners.

 

The apparent fetish for producing 'as preserved' rather than 'in service' condition models with some of the older liveries is often a function of the fact that, despite wearing an older, say pre-Grouping, livery, the locomotive is often  physically in a rebuilt state, the state she was when withdrawn from BR service. 

 

Even with an older example of preservation, the City of Truro, you are not on safe ground; she never ran in service in the pre-1906 livery in Indian Red frames in her preserved physical configuration. 

 

Aside from such 'exotics', the need to justify costs by selling in volume to BR-era modellers, dictates that the prototype must have seen service with BR and the tooling must generally be BR-era compatible.  This has two consequences.  First locomotives that did not make it to BR days, generally, will not be modelled. Every GW branch line from the 1870s to the 1930s actually needs a 517 class 0-4-2, but, because they were replaced by the 4800 (or 14XX as the Western region modeller thinks of it) class from the mid-thirties, there is little or no prospect of a RTR version.

 

So some very common types, even in the Grouping era, will remain unavailable.

 

The second consequence is that one can only back-date the liveries to the date of the last re-build.  E.g. the LBSC E4 class is represented in umber c.1911 (IIRC), because that is as far back as Bachmann can go given its BR-compatible tooling.  The J72 (as LNER and BR people think of it) will only go as far back as a 1914 batch, again, I suspect, to be compatible with the later state of the class. 

 

LSW locomotives suffer particularly badly, because Urie tended to rebuild, so you cannot use a Hornby Black Motor or T9 pre-WW1. The same is true with the Hornby ex-GE Claud.  The higher boiler pitches of the re-builds often means that the motors sit too high to accommodate a back-dated body shell, so Hornby couldn't produce back-dated versions even if they wanted to, and nor can you (EDIT: without considerable extra work) . Even the Radial in Adams livery is as preserved, though relatively easy to back-date.  The only LSW RTR loco so far available that a manufacturer can accurately re-livery to pre-WW1 days is Hornby's M7.

 

There is no sense complaining about this state of affairs, that is the way of the model railway world, because nostalgic Baby Boomers have dominated the market for many years (and, so the media tell us, have all the houses/money/pensions etc that we younger folk don't!).  It's just a fact of life, but it does mean that you have to cultivate an awareness of what will and what won't back-date and to be creative, supplement with kits etc.  Nothing wrong with expanding out from a small RTR core; it's a good way to learn to model. 

 

See it as an opportunity to be creative and end up with a loco stud that isn't the same as everyone else's. 

What ought to be remembered is that while some classes of locos survived to become BR locos. The reality is that many classes (large and small quantities) had started the withdrawal process long ago. Indeed if it wasn't for WW2 and some severely weight/height restricted lines, many more classes would have disappeared, well before 1948. The LMS in particular was well into a modernisation & standardisation plan. But due to the large number of class members of many ex Midland & LNWR locomotives, there were still a lot left.

 

Meaning that the range of loco classes available to model post Nationalisation, is greater that had been intended by the railway companies.

[OnTheBranchline]

Most things look good in LNWR livery, yes.

 

Only because there's a copper cap chimney and a brass safety valve to brighten it up

[Zomboid]

Those are the worst bits.

[brianusa]

Sadly most of the reasons stated above are the reasons that there will be very little new pre grouping locos and rolling stock anytime soon.  Most modellers today grew up with diesels and BR bland Blue so the colourful liveries of earlier times mean little to them, nor do the trains themselves.  Others of a certain age who are fortunate to remember the last years before BR, are lucky to recall the groupings.  Even the noble British Railways with its cycling lion crest succumbed to Britrail and a couple of meaningless (to most) arrows. 

 

Brian.

[tractionman]

Sadly most of the reasons stated above are the reasons that there will be very little new pre grouping locos and rolling stock anytime soon.  Most modellers today grew up with diesels and BR bland Blue so the colourful liveries of earlier times mean little to them, nor do the trains themselves.  Others of a certain age who are fortunate to remember the last years before BR, are lucky to recall the groupings.  Even the noble British Railways with its cycling lion crest succumbed to Britrail and a couple of meaningless (to most) arrows. 

 

Brian.

There's some interesting discussion around modelling interests and age here,

 

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/129998-unscientific-not-guaranteed-to-be-representative-age-versus-modelled-era-poll/page-1

 

 

Cheers,

 

Keith