Martin Shaw Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 I'm a bit late to this thread, but interesting nonetheless as I grew up in Orpington. I have a BR-SR locomotive route availability dated 1-12-62. Regarding the Tonbridge to Bopeep Jn line, the following classes were barred, N (allowed between Tonbridge and Grove Jn), U, W, E2, E6, K, G16, H16, MN, N15, O2, S15, V 8w tenders, WC original and rebuilt, Z, All Diesel Electric locos except narrow body Cromptons, All Diesel Hydraulic locos,BR Stds Cl4 4-6-0 and bigger, most of the smaller ones had major restrictions, all LM region locos, B1, WD 2-8-0. Actually it would have been quicker ti list what was allowed. Regards Martin 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted April 5, 2018 Author Share Posted April 5, 2018 Presumably if the latter was placed at the rear of the train, it presented a fourgon conclusion? Ho. I can't bring myself to dignify that with the 'Funny' button. Do you know, throughout the entire Orient Express digression on my layout topic I was Aching to find a pretext to use that phrase, but nobly, for the sake of the community, I put the temptation firmly behind me? Trust You, on the other hand ..... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Regularity Posted April 5, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 5, 2018 Ho. I can't bring myself to dignify that with the 'Funny' button. But clicking the button would have been so much easier.. Do you know, throughout the entire Orient Express digression on my layout topic I was Aching to find a pretext to use that phrase, but nobly, for the sake of the community, I put the temptation firmly behind me? Trust You, on the other hand ..... I shall take that, as well as Mr. Lea’s remark, as a compliment.Or maybe as a complement: a pinch of salt is often taken when I say something... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sem34090 Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 I don't know why people make such a fuss of the stock used on the Orient Express. I mean, the wording on the side is off-putting enough, simply telling you that the 'coach' is in fact a 'Wagon - Lit', or (in British terms) an illuminated wagon rather than any vehicle of great comfort. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted April 5, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 5, 2018 I don't know why people make such a fuss of the stock used on the Orient Express. I mean, the wording on the side is off-putting enough, simply telling you that the 'coach' is in fact a 'Wagon - Lit', or (in British terms) an illuminated wagon rather than any vehicle of great comfort. Come on, what could be grander than the full title as laid out along the eves panel: Compagnie Internationale des Wagons-Lits et des Grands Express Européens? Or indeed, Richard Rodney Bennett's music for the departure of the Simplon Orient Express from Istanbul Sirkeci? (See, I was paying attention.) 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Rixon Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 But Guy says these were saloons forming club trains - not, as I read it, boat trains. Were they actually operated by the CIWL or were the cars hired or leased to the railway companies and operated as company services (with supplement, of course)? They were day saloons, I think, not sleepers. I have only the second part of a two-part article (in Railways South East), and that doesn't pin down the ownership. However, the fact that the cars were stored on the SER after the service ceased, rather than returned to CIWL, suggests ownership by the SER or a long lease. I'll dig out the article tomorrow and check. I can't get at it now, there's a dog sleeping on the magazine. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted April 5, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 5, 2018 Let sleeping dogs lie. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sem34090 Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 That music is truly wonderful... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dana Ashdown Posted September 26, 2018 Share Posted September 26, 2018 (edited) A new (to me) source for Bradshaw is the February 1906 edition posted on archive.org by Bristolian - https://archive.org/details/Bradshaw1906. The file is HUGE, but it is much easier to view than the printed versions because you can easily enlarge the image. Dana Edited September 26, 2018 by Dana Ashdown Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted November 9, 2018 Author Share Posted November 9, 2018 I rarely, very rarely, buy vintage postcards, but I recently purchased this one ... 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted November 9, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 9, 2018 Interesting lining challenge. Closing one eye and filtering out the rather overdone lower panels, this carriage reminds one just how American the classic Wolverton diner was in its styling. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted November 9, 2018 Author Share Posted November 9, 2018 Interesting lining challenge. Closing one eye and filtering out the rather overdone lower panels, this carriage reminds one just how American the classic Wolverton diner was in its styling. Indeed, and it, too, is a British designed and built coach Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 Excellent card, showing an excellent car. The OTT decoration doesn't need to be filtered out to realise how American it is, because such decoration is classically American. Or, perhaps that's what you meant. I think that 'open' cars were actually known as American Cars in this country for a period. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted November 9, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 9, 2018 Excellent card, showing an excellent car. The OTT decoration doesn't need to be filtered out to realise how American it is, because such decoration is classically American. Or, perhaps that's what you meant. I think that 'open' cars were actually known as American Cars in this country for a period. I rather meant, the similarity to this car draws attention to the Americanness of the Wolverton diner style. It's a superficial similarity, though - Wolverton built its diners and sleepers in the conventional British way, as bodies on underframes, in contrast to the monocoque design of the Pullmans and the SECR Pullman-inspired cars. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted November 15, 2018 Author Share Posted November 15, 2018 (edited) Thanks to the Constance book, there is sufficient information for modellers to reproduce the Gilbert cars, originally used across SER services, but, after rebuilding in 1896, used to form the Hastings Car Train. Where I have a deficit of information is in relation to the "Vestibuled Cars", designed by Wainwright, in conjunction with W S Laycock (presumably he of the 'torpedo' roof vents), and built by the Metropolitan Carriage & Wagon Co. Parishioners might want to speculate upon the route the coaches took from Birmingham for delivery in 1897. My postcard, posted above and again below, I assume shows the sole First Class Drawing Room Car, No.201, of the set. There was a single US-built First Class Drawing Room Car acquired around the same time, but it did not form part of the Folkestone set. Below is a scratch-built model that Stephen Middleton showed me. It looks to me like the First Buffet, No.202. 6, then 7 of the 8 Vestibuled Cars ran as a set forming the Folkestone Car Train, officially introduced as the Folkestone Vestibuled Limited. I find that a number of authors, in captioning photographs, confuse the Hastings and Folkestone sets. There are noticeable differences between the two sets, particularly in the style of the windows and the fact that the British cars ran on Fox bogies and the Gilberts on American bogies. The giveaway feature is the fact that the British-built Vestibuled Cars included Third Brakes (complete with birdcages!), whereas the American-built Gilbert Cars had no brake compartments and had to run with various conventional SER/SE&CR brake coaches. Here is a colour postcard showing one of the brake ends of the set. Edited November 15, 2018 by Edwardian 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted November 15, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 15, 2018 (edited) So were all these cars originally branded "South Eastern Railway" in the eves panel? I'm thinking that "South Eastern and Chatham Railway" fits between the bits of ornamentation at the ends but the shorter title would leave a surprisingly large unornamented area. I can't imagine that nearly-new cars would have had a full repaint just to put the new branding in the eves panel. Edited November 15, 2018 by Compound2632 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted November 15, 2018 Author Share Posted November 15, 2018 So were all these cars originally branded "South Eastern Railway" in the eves panel? I'm thinking that "South Eastern and Chatham Railway" fits between the bits of ornamentation at the ends but the shorter title would leave a surprisingly large unornamented area. I can't imagine that nearly-new cars would have had a full repaint just to put the new branding in the eves panel. The Gilbert Cars were certainly originally marked 'South Eastern Railway', there is photographic evidence. Logically the Metropolitan Cars would also have been, but I have not seen this in a photograph so far. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted November 15, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 15, 2018 Continuing to be intrigued by these cars. How heavy where they? The D looks rather puny in front of them. I'm wondering if Harry Wainwright started to regret his involvement in their design once he was made responsible for providing locomotives to haul them. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Rixon Posted November 15, 2018 Share Posted November 15, 2018 Six or seven relatively-heavy cars would be no worse than 10 or 11 normal coaches on a boat train. I'm more interested in the length. If they went down to Folkestone Harbour then they would have to be no more than 44ft and they look longer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Burnham Posted November 15, 2018 Share Posted November 15, 2018 The Metropolitan RCW vestibuled cars were 56ft 1 in over vestibules. David Gould in his otherwise invaluable "Bogie Carriages of the SE&CR" doesn't appear to give weights. The Folkestone Car Train didn't run to Folkestone Harbour, i.e. it was a residential rather than a boat train. In 1906, for example, it formed the 8.30 am Folkestone Central to Charing Cross and the 4.28 pm Charing X to Dover Harbour, thence empty to Folkestone Central. The motive power must have been adequate as in the Edwardian era the down train ran non-stop from Cannon Street to Folkestone and was the fastest train on the SE&CR (perhaps nothing to boast about...) Folkestone Harbour station was rebuilt about 1904, after which the length restriction on carriages used on Folkestone boat trains no longer applied. Tom Burnham, Staplehurst Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted November 15, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 15, 2018 That photo looks to be a cropped version of the one on which the postcard (first pic in Edwardian's post) is based. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted February 12, 2019 Author Share Posted February 12, 2019 A package arrived today from Turbosnail of this Parish, the first, I hope, of an eventual quartet of 4-4-0s to dedicate to all but the heaviest and fastest traffic on the Edwardian mainline. It is a very good print, comes complete with motor and gears, and is a significantly better finish than I am used to from Shapeways and at considerably less cost. Aside from representing an important prototype for anyone considering the SE&CR as a subject, my thought is that this format might represent a benign place start to locomotive kit-building. 11 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted April 8, 2019 Author Share Posted April 8, 2019 A bit more research .... Based on an accident report, we have the formation for a Dover Mail in 1909: 9.05am Cannon Street to Dover Harbour: E Class 4-4-0 No.165 50’ Second Brake No.952 (1907) 50’ PO Tender No.110 (1907) 50’ PO Tender No.111 (1907) 50’ PO Sorting Van No.693 (1904) 6-Wheel Mail Tender No.280 50’ 1st-2nd Composite No.931 (1907) 50’ 1st-2nd Composite No.934 (1907) 50’ First No.944 (1907) 50’ Second Brake No.951 (1907) Ref: Gould pp136-8; Drawings: (of Composites) Coutanche p50, (of First) Coutanche p18; Plans (of 2nd Brake) Gould p89 (see Worseley Works D154), (of Composites) Gould p96 (see Worseley Works D303), (Mail vans) Gould pp184-188, plates There do not seem to be published plans of the 2-compt. Brake Seconds, though they look like forthcoming sides and ends for Worsely Works. There are plans for the First, so I would imagine that WW could be induced to make sides and ends for these. However, I have no drawings for any of the mail vehicles and have a photograph only of the 1904 sorting van. O have yet to look at the NRM drawings index. Any information gratefully received. 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
1165Valour Posted April 11, 2019 Share Posted April 11, 2019 I like the idea of an SE&CR/Brighton layout, though I hestitate between including the Southern Belle or the SE&CR boat trains, and you really can't have both on the same layout realistically! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted April 11, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 11, 2019 5 minutes ago, GWRSwindon said: I like the idea of an SE&CR/Brighton layout, though I hestitate between including the Southern Belle or the SE&CR boat trains, and you really can't have both on the same layout realistically! Not that impossible that the boat train might have to be diverted via Crystal Palace LL. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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