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SE&CR Traffic on the Sevenoaks-Tonbridge Line


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His involvement in multiple railways at home and abroad should have made him a distinguished figure of the era, but the single-stage Watkin’s Folly and 2000-yard Channel Tunnel told a tale of a man with unrealistic aims.

 

He simply died at the wrong moment. Both projects could have been seen through to completion at the time and we'd have been much better off for one of them.

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I doubt the Channel Tunnel was possible using Victorian technology, it was hard enough a century later. There was also the little matter of traction given that in Watkin's day electrical traction was still experimental. Powering a light tramcar at 15 mph was a long way from powering express trains at 60 mph.

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Trains through the St Gottard tunnel, a bit over 9 miles long, were hauled by steam from its opening in 1882 until 1920. Although nowhere near as long, the Severn Tunnel provided an example of a successful underwater tunnel despite difficult geological conditions. The geology of the Channel Tunnel was much easier for tunnelling and, I believe, sufficiently well understood at the time. The problems facing Watkin's Channel Tunnel Company were not primarily technical.

Edited by Compound2632
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He simply died at the wrong moment. Both projects could have been seen through to completion at the time and we'd have been much better off for one of them.

Yep.  If the "Folly" had been completed, we wouldn't have had Wembley Stadium!

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It's not like me to interrupt a discussion by bringing it closer to the ostensible topic - I can only apologise (!) - but here is what I have gleaned so far, mainly from trawling through Gould's entries on individual diagrams.

 

I believe that inter alia the following services would have used the Tonbridge cut-off:

 

Hastings Car Train, Train No.8, 1907-1914

8 Coaches:

 

45’ No.2304 3-compt Third (upgraded to Second) Brake (1900),

 

Gilbert Cars Nos.35 & 47 (First), No. 36 (Second), Nos.32-34 (Third),

 

45’ 3-compt Third Brake (1900)

 

Ref: Gould 93, Cars p28, Third Brakes pp61 & 63

Drawings: (of Third Brakes) Coutanche, Gould 93 p62

 

 

Folkestone Car Train, Train No.7, 1907-1914

7 Coaches (Vestibuled Cars of 1897):

 

No.208 Third Brake, No.203 Second, Nos.202 & 201 Firsts, Nos.205 & 206 Thirds, No.207 Third Brake

 

 

Set No. 17, 7.40 am Tonbridge to Cannon Street & 5.40pm London Bridge to Penshurst, 1909-1913

5 coaches:

 

No.1922 SER 42’ 1st/2nd Composite,

 

No.2911 LCDR 42’ Second,

 

No.2637 LCDR 42’ First,

 

No.3410 LCDR 45’ Third Brake,

 

No.3415 LCDR 45’ Third Brake.

 

Ref: Gould 93, p17, pp46-7

 

 

London – Hastings “Fixed Train”, Set 59, 1908-1910

5.35am Cannon St – Hastings, 11am Hastings – Victoria, 2.42pm Victoria – Ashford, 6pm Ashford – Hastings, 9pm Hastings – Charing X

3-coach set:

 

No.2295 45’ 3-Compt. Third Brake (replaced by No.831 50’1” 5-Compt. Third Brake (1905) in 1911 or 1912),

 

No.888 51’1” Tri-Composite (1906),

 

No.160 (replaced by No.162 from Oct. 1910) 46’ Tri-Composite Brake (1905)

 

Ref: Gould 93, p61, p117, pp77-78, p126.

 

 

 

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Trains through the St Gottard tunnel, a bit over 9 miles long, were hauled by steam from its opening in 1882 until 1920. Although nowhere near as long, the Severn Tunnel provided an example of a successful underwater tunnel despite difficult geological conditions. The geology of the Channel Tunnel was much easier for tunnelling and, I believe, sufficiently well understood at the time. The problems facing Watkin's Channel Tunnel Company were not primarily technical.

 

However its unlikely that any Victorian tunnel would have been large enough to cope with road vehicle shuttles - which as the current operation shows is where the money is to be made. The numbers and revenue accrued from international passenger services and particularly international rail freight is pretty dismal in comparison.

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It's not like me to interrupt a discussion by bringing it closer to the ostensible topic - I can only apologise (!) -

 

I don't know, if Watkin had seen the Channel Tunnel through to completion there would have been some interesting coaches (Wagon-lits?) running over the Tonbridge cut-off

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Trains through the St Gottard tunnel, a bit over 9 miles long, were hauled by steam from its opening in 1882 until 1920. Although nowhere near as long, the Severn Tunnel provided an example of a successful underwater tunnel despite difficult geological conditions. The geology of the Channel Tunnel was much easier for tunnelling and, I believe, sufficiently well understood at the time. The problems facing Watkin's Channel Tunnel Company were not primarily technical.

 

Since the test borings for the Channel Tunnel revealed the presence of the Kent coalfield perhaps the geology was not that well understood.

 

I think you are right though that political and financial problems killed the Watkin tunnel way before the technical problems caused trouble.

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However its unlikely that any Victorian tunnel would have been large enough to cope with road vehicle shuttles - which as the current operation shows is where the money is to be made. The numbers and revenue accrued from international passenger services and particularly international rail freight is pretty dismal in comparison.

 

But that certainly wasn't the situation in the late nineteenth century! No doubt in the fullness of time it would have been duplicated by a road/rail tunnel (as in the Alps) or a road crossing of some sort - per the Severn and Forth bridges. 

 

For the record, though Watkin is best remembered for the Manchester Sheffield and Lincolnshire's London Extension, in addition to being Chairman of the Manchester company he was on the boards of the Metropolitan Railway, South Eastern Railway, and Chemin de fer du Nord, among other lines less relevant to the Channel Tunnel project.

 

 

It's not like me to interrupt a discussion by bringing it closer to the ostensible topic - I can only apologise (!) - but here is what I have gleaned so far, mainly from trawling through Gould's entries on individual diagrams.

 

I believe that inter alia the following services would have used the Tonbridge cut-off:

 

Hastings Car Train, Train No.8, 1907-1914

8 Coaches:

 

45’ No.2304 3-compt Third (upgraded to Second) Brake (1900),

 

Gilbert Cars Nos.35 & 47 (First), No. 36 (Second), Nos.32-34 (Third),

 

45’ 3-compt Third Brake (1900)

 

Ref: Gould 93, Cars p28, Third Brakes pp61 & 63

Drawings: (of Third Brakes) Coutanche, Gould 93 p62

 

 

Folkestone Car Train, Train No.7, 1907-1914

7 Coaches (Vestibuled Cars of 1897):

 

No.208 Third Brake, No.203 Second, Nos.202 & 201 Firsts, Nos.205 & 206 Thirds, No.207 Third Brake

 

 

Set No. 17, 7.40 am Tonbridge to Cannon Street & 5.40pm London Bridge to Penshurst, 1909-1913

5 coaches:

 

No.1922 SER 42’ 1st/2nd Composite,

 

No.2911 LCDR 42’ Second,

 

No.2637 LCDR 42’ First,

 

No.3410 LCDR 45’ Third Brake,

 

No.3415 LCDR 45’ Third Brake.

 

Ref: Gould 93, p17, pp46-7

 

 

London – Hastings “Fixed Train”, Set 59, 1908-1910

5.35am Cannon St – Hastings, 11am Hastings – Victoria, 2.42pm Victoria – Ashford, 6pm Ashford – Hastings, 9pm Hastings – Charing X

3-coach set:

 

No.2295 45’ 3-Compt. Third Brake (replaced by No.831 50’1” 5-Compt. Third Brake (1905) in 1911 or 1912),

 

No.888 51’1” Tri-Composite (1906),

 

No.160 (replaced by No.162 from Oct. 1910) 46’ Tri-Composite Brake (1905)

 

Ref: Gould 93, p61, p117, pp77-78, p126.

 

I do like it when one can identify the exact carriages used on a particular service over a century ago. In my Midland researches, the nearest one can get is the carriage diagram, though for restaurant cars or the like that usually narrows the field down to three or so.

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For the record, though Watkin is best remembered for the Manchester Sheffield and Lincolnshire's London Extension, in addition to being Chairman of the Manchester company he was on the boards of the Metropolitan Railway, South Eastern Railway, and Chemin de fer du Nord, among other lines less relevant to the Channel Tunnel project.

 

No empire building there, then!
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[ reproduction of section through 'cut & cover' French proposal for Channel Tunnel ]

Good job, when you think about it ....

I suppose I might just as well go OT here as on Edwardian's Castle Aching thread

I spent about an hour on Easter Sunday walking along Watkin's London Extension at Rugby listening to my 17 year old grandson enthusing about his research  into Thomas Cochrane, 10th Earl of Dundonald.   (I admit I'd originally broached the Edwardian Channel tunnel topic waffling on about Watkin's grand plan, the tower project on the site of  Wembley stadium.and Churchill and co. stopping it all for secirity reasons - did I invent that bit?)

But I'd never before connected the model for Captain Horatio Hornblower, known also as a radical politician, with a collaboration with Frenchie Marc Brunel and the invention of the tunnelling shield for the the Thames tunnel  (and the subsequent tunnelling through tipped fill above the invert level of Thames mud as shewn under la Manche)

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A little nearer the topic. I recall, when commuting from Otford into Brixton (sometimes while on long leave in the 1960s) having to wait quite frequently before  Swanley for the up Night Ferry to trundle past the junction with all its breakfasters aboard. Presumably, comiing up via Farningham Road, that was on the old Chatham.

Was that one of the Southern's 4 Boat Train routes mentioned earlier in this thread?.

dh

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Yes, that was one of the Boat Train Routes, but I’ve forgotten which number, and it was ‘non preferred’, because of the squiggly-ness and business of the line through the Medway towns.

 

The normal route for the NF when I can remember it, in the 1970s, was via Tonbridge, but depending how early in the 1960s you are talking about there might still have been major works going on at various places, causing frequent use of the other routes.

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Yes, that was one of the Boat Train Routes, but I’ve forgotten which number, and it was ‘non preferred’, because of the squiggly-ness and business of the line through the Medway towns.

The normal route for the NF when I can remember it, in the 1970s, was via Tonbridge, but depending how early in the 1960s you are talking about there might still have been major works going on at various places, causing frequent use of the other routes.

BTR 3.
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Yes, that was one of the Boat Train Routes, but I’ve forgotten which number, and it was ‘non preferred’, because of the squiggly-ness and business of the line through the Medway towns.

 

The normal route for the NF when I can remember it, in the 1970s, was via Tonbridge, but depending how early in the 1960s you are talking about there might still have been major works going on at various places, causing frequent use of the other routes.

The first spell (at Regent House, Stockwell Rd) Brixton was in 1964, the last would be 1969. We actually rode the Night Ferry in summer 1961 back from Paris, breakfasting through Tonbridge.

dh

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It's not like me to interrupt a discussion by bringing it closer to the ostensible topic - I can only apologise (!) - but here is what I have gleaned so far, mainly from trawling through Gould's entries on individual diagrams.

 

I believe that inter alia the following services would have used the Tonbridge cut-off:

 

Hastings Car Train, Train No.8, 1907-1914

8 Coaches:

 

45’ No.2304 3-compt Third (upgraded to Second) Brake (1900),

 

Gilbert Cars Nos.35 & 47 (First), No. 36 (Second), Nos.32-34 (Third),

 

45’ 3-compt Third Brake (1900)

 

Ref: Gould 93, Cars p28, Third Brakes pp61 & 63

Drawings: (of Third Brakes) Coutanche, Gould 93 p62

 

 

Folkestone Car Train, Train No.7, 1907-1914

7 Coaches (Vestibuled Cars of 1897):

 

No.208 Third Brake, No.203 Second, Nos.202 & 201 Firsts, Nos.205 & 206 Thirds, No.207 Third Brake

 

 

Set No. 17, 7.40 am Tonbridge to Cannon Street & 5.40pm London Bridge to Penshurst, 1909-1913

5 coaches:

 

No.1922 SER 42’ 1st/2nd Composite,

 

No.2911 LCDR 42’ Second,

 

No.2637 LCDR 42’ First,

 

No.3410 LCDR 45’ Third Brake,

 

No.3415 LCDR 45’ Third Brake.

 

Ref: Gould 93, p17, pp46-7

 

 

London – Hastings “Fixed Train”, Set 59, 1908-1910

5.35am Cannon St – Hastings, 11am Hastings – Victoria, 2.42pm Victoria – Ashford, 6pm Ashford – Hastings, 9pm Hastings – Charing X

3-coach set:

 

No.2295 45’ 3-Compt. Third Brake (replaced by No.831 50’1” 5-Compt. Third Brake (1905) in 1911 or 1912),

 

No.888 51’1” Tri-Composite (1906),

 

No.160 (replaced by No.162 from Oct. 1910) 46’ Tri-Composite Brake (1905)

 

Ref: Gould 93, p61, p117, pp77-78, p126.

 

Have you seen the SE&CR Society's book A Car Called Constance? Its got a fairly complete record of the Hastings Car Train, complete with diagrams and pictures.

 

Now if only they could do the same with the Folkestone Car Train.

 

Dana

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Have you seen the SE&CR Society's book A Car Called Constance? Its got a fairly complete record of the Hastings Car Train, complete with diagrams and pictures.

 

Now if only they could do the same with the Folkestone Car Train.

 

Dana

 

I must seek it out, because I have no drawings of these cars, thank you.

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I don't know, if Watkin had seen the Channel Tunnel through to completion there would have been some interesting coaches (Wagon-lits?) running over the Tonbridge cut-off

 

Wagons-lits did run on the Tonbridge line. There were, for a few years in the 1890's, two "club trains", one on the SER and the other on the LCDR. They were formed of continental stock bought or leased from the Wagons Lits company. The trains were very short, typically three saloons plus a fourgon-fumoirs (a brake coach with the passenger section formed as a smoking saloon). The service didn't pay and the stock was put into store, then, much later, returned to the continent where it ran for a while in Belgium. I have a magazine article with more details of the coaches if anybody's interested.

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Wagons-lits did run on the Tonbridge line. There were, for a few years in the 1890's, two "club trains", one on the SER and the other on the LCDR. They were formed of continental stock bought or leased from the Wagons Lits company. The trains were very short, typically three saloons plus a fourgon-fumoirs (a brake coach with the passenger section formed as a smoking saloon). The service didn't pay and the stock was put into store, then, much later, returned to the continent where it ran for a while in Belgium. I have a magazine article with more details of the coaches if anybody's interested.

 

I seem to recall seeing a picture of the stock, apparently abandoned on a siding.

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Wagons-lits did run on the Tonbridge line. There were, for a few years in the 1890's, two "club trains", one on the SER and the other on the LCDR. They were formed of continental stock bought or leased from the Wagons Lits company. The trains were very short, typically three saloons plus a fourgon-fumoirs (a brake coach with the passenger section formed as a smoking saloon). The service didn't pay and the stock was put into store, then, much later, returned to the continent where it ran for a while in Belgium. I have a magazine article with more details of the coaches if anybody's interested.

 

The problem though was that the train ferry didn't start service till years - decades later. A sleeping car service where you didn't need to leave your bunk anywhere between London and Paris might have paid, one where you had to detrain after a couple of hours, get onto a boat and then resume your kip two hours later was probably not so popular.

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The problem though was that the train ferry didn't start service till years - decades later. A sleeping car service where you didn't need to leave your bunk anywhere between London and Paris might have paid, one where you had to detrain after a couple of hours, get onto a boat and then resume your kip two hours later was probably not so popular.

 

But Guy says these were saloons forming club trains - not, as I read it, boat trains. Were they actually operated by the CIWL or were the cars hired or leased to the railway companies and operated as company services (with supplement, of course)?

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The trains were very short, typically three saloons plus a fourgon-fumoirs (a brake coach with the passenger section formed as a smoking saloon).

Presumably if the latter was placed at the rear of the train, it presented a fourgon conclusion?

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