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SE&CR Traffic on the Sevenoaks-Tonbridge Line


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The O class is already available in 4mm scale, from Branchlines. I have one in the queue. It's an old-school whitemetal kit with an etched chassis and some of its fittings, like the safety valve and steam-pump for the reverser, are what could be got for an etches-only F. There's also resin parts for an O1 from Golden Arrow.

 

Concerning the F, if a new master had to be made for the boiler, I suspect that it might sink a small-batch project. It would be easy enough to get a boiler, smokebox and firebox printed, if the budget is not too tight. If the etches for the rest can be procured I would gladly provide the prints.

 

I was aware of the Golden Arrow resin body, but not the Branchlines O - the problem of not having a website! - so thanks for that. I would have thought that an O, O1 and C would do for the goods side of things, and, indeed, I've seen pictures of Fs on goods services too.

 

So, the F/F1 is the major omission, otherwise representative locomotives for this line seem reasonably attainable.

 

The challenge, as ever, will be the coaching stock.

 

The other Golden Arrow body that interests me is the LSWR 395 - but that's another story!

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JP

 

I think that Knockholt has the better setting than Chelsfield. Even quite recently (well, fifty years ago!) the chalk face of the cutting on the down side made quite a good backdrop. It is heavily overgrown now, so not so spectacular.

 

Not only that, but as we've discussed before in one of these threads, one gets Edith Nesbit thrown in for good measure, which in turn would justify a very small JA. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4414156/House-inspired-Railway-Children-market.html

 

No Junction, though, at either, which cuts the interest a bit.

 

All that chalk would work in a layout that showed the quarry line as well, of course, as a sort of unifying theme ....... The North Downs Extravaganza.

 

K

post-26817-0-15716200-1516712877_thumb.png

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JP

 

I think that Knockholt has the better setting than Chelsfield. Even quite recently (well, fifty years ago!) the chalk face of the cutting on the down side made quite a good backdrop. It is heavily overgrown now, so not so spectacular.

 

Not only that, but as we've discussed before in one of these threads, one gets Edith Nesbit thrown in for good measure, which in turn would justify a very small JA. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4414156/House-inspired-Railway-Children-market.html

 

No Junction, though, at either, which cuts the interest a bit.

 

All that chalk would work in a layout that showed the quarry line as well, of course, as a sort of unifying theme ....... The North Downs Extravaganza.

 

K

 

 

That is not a bad idea, as it is difficult otherwise to identify a unifying theme, or, indeed, title, for such a layout.

 

Hmmm ... in an age of naff titles for layouts, that would give us "A Tale of Three Mainlines"!

 

Or, "Rails through the Chalk"

 

Or, of course "Down on the North Downs",

 

or, for Up services, at least, "North by North Downs",

 

or, with apologies to Stendhal, "The Umber and the Green"

 

or, with apologies to Richard Curtis "Three Mainlines and a Quarry"

 

I could go on, but I have little enough will to live as it is  at the moment ....

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JP

 

I think that Knockholt has the better setting than Chelsfield. Even quite recently (well, fifty years ago!) the chalk face of the cutting on the down side made quite a good backdrop. It is heavily overgrown now, so not so spectacular.

 

Not only that, but as we've discussed before in one of these threads, one gets Edith Nesbit thrown in for good measure, which in turn would justify a very small JA. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4414156/House-inspired-Railway-Children-market.html

 

No Junction, though, at either, which cuts the interest a bit.

 

All that chalk would work in a layout that showed the quarry line as well, of course, as a sort of unifying theme ....... The North Downs Extravaganza.

 

K

 

Agreed, Knockholt also a good candidate although a bit more length between the obvious scenic breaks.

 

I do like the traditional staggered platforms at Chelsfield, so typical of the SER.

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Excellent, thank you.

 

I notice that the route is shown as via Ludgate Hill, Herne Hill, and Tonbridge.

 

Presumably this would have required through running on the Metropolitan from St Pancras, via Snow Hill tunnel, to connect with the SE&CR at Holborn viaduct?

 

From thence the service could continue south to Herne Hill, passing under the SE&CR's London Bridge to Victoria line.  At Herne Hill the line turned to the south east, and would join the mainline at Orpington, in time for the Midland service to appear on the line to Tonbridge and run through Chelsfield, Knockholt and Dunton Green. .   

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Edwardian

 

I think you’ve got the route right.

 

What interests me about this train is motive power. The route via the Widened Lines and Snow Hill is notoriously twisty and steep (about 1:40) so that, even in diesel days, there was a banking engine stationed at Farringdon to shove the, short and weight restricted, goods trains up hill. So, what on Earth was needed, and available, to pull a, presumably heavy, through passenger train?

 

I’m guessing double-heading with a pair of 0-4-4 condensing tanks, but it would have been a slow transit, so maybe a goods tank and an 0-4-4T. I don’t think they would have dared ‘rush it’ as far as Farringdon, the shove from the back, as was done with goods, because stalling on the sharp dip below Ray Steet gridiron with such a posh train would have been bad for their reputation.

 

Kevin

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Folks,

 

The SECR built three series of Bk Compo carriages for through running to other companies.  Two series were tri compos, the third for the MR were bi compo. 

 

Now for some supposition.  The through carriage would start at Bradford, probably last vehicle, and be detached at some point (St Albans, Kentish Town ???).  It would be attached to a local MR train through the Widened Lines to Herne Hill, where it would be attached to an SECR express.  The staff at Herne Hill were pretty nifty, because the timetable only gave a couple of minutes to couple up, connect the gangways and set a vacuum.  The SECR train was fairly unusual, because it started at Victoria on the LCDR and used the (fairly new) Bickley loop to the SER; in effect the Boat Train 1 route.  The LCDR and SER were still effectively operated as two railways in 1911.

 

I'm guessing that if there were problems with connexions, the shunting engine at Kentish Town (?) or Herne Hill would whip the carriage through the Widened Lines as a special train.

 

I've probably got this wrong and am happy for a MR or SECR expert to correct me.

 

Bill

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Hmmm ...... maybe the train was leaner than I’d supposed, and it certainly didn’t take the restaurant through the tunnel, but the way I read the ‘flyer’ it’s got several coaches, because of the multiple points of origin.

 

Cancel that: you could be right.

 

(My oop north Railway geography is weak, so I thought Leeds and Bradford needed separate portions ..... sorry!)

 

On the other hand, the train is shown in the 1910 Bradshaw as a train with a portion from the LNW (LC&D via WLER?), rather than combined with a portion from Victoria. Somewhere, I’ve seen a photo of a LCD/SECR loco with LNW coaches in south London, and it was a substantial rake.

 

Two photos of Herne Hill, of the right vintage, which illustrate that it had enough points and signals to allow anyone to play trains!

post-26817-0-67397100-1517488958_thumb.jpeg

post-26817-0-13375700-1517488974_thumb.jpeg

Edited by Nearholmer
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As I wrote earlier in the thread, the history of these through services is complicated with many changes over the years.

 

But certainly, the train from the Midland consisted of more than one carriage at times, as did the train from the LNW. The maximum length of the total train would be 8/9 carriages as there is not a lot of space at Herne Hill. The staff there were, of course, well versed in joining/separating trains as it was LC&D practice to split all of its mainline trains into a Victoria and a Holborn Viaduct section.

 

So far as I know, the carriages were transferred from Kentish Town to Herne Hill on their own, not attached to a local service. With just three or four coaches, a banker would not normally be needed for the run up to Ludgate Hill.

 

PS: Love those photos of Herne Hill.

Edited by Joseph_Pestell
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Kevin,

 

So you sent me off to find my Gould. He confirms there was also a through carriage for the LNWR, this of course would be a Tri Compo, detached at Herne Hill and onto a Manchester London Roads express at Willesden.

 

Gould has the carriage for the MR attached to a Manchester Central train! But he isn't always correct.

 

Herne Hill could get busy. Bill

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Edwardian

 

I think you’ve got the route right.

 

What interests me about this train is motive power. The route via the Widened Lines and Snow Hill is notoriously twisty and steep (about 1:40) so that, even in diesel days, there was a banking engine stationed at Farringdon to shove the, short and weight restricted, goods trains up hill. So, what on Earth was needed, and available, to pull a, presumably heavy, through passenger train?

 

I’m guessing double-heading with a pair of 0-4-4 condensing tanks, but it would have been a slow transit, so maybe a goods tank and an 0-4-4T. I don’t think they would have dared ‘rush it’ as far as Farringdon, the shove from the back, as was done with goods, because stalling on the sharp dip below Ray Steet gridiron with such a posh train would have been bad for their reputation.

 

Kevin

 

 

There is a photograph showing MR and LNWR through carriages together at Herne Hill, in 1914 IIRC. I think there are two from each railway, but will check details later today. The engine is an 0-4-4T (just the one!), which I presume had brought one of the portions into Herne Hill, was assembling the train at the time of the photo, and would then yield to a 4-4-0 for the run to the coast.

 

I'm not aware of any full, through trains from the Midland. There was, in 1914, a short, through train from the LNWR, but this went round via the WLER and never had to deal with the bad banks.

 

We should remember that the LCDR 0-4-4T were quite capable. If they could move 12-14 four-wheeled coaches up from Snow Hill they would handle 5-6 bogie vehicles without problems. And there was always a banking engine to help them up.

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Kevin,

 

So you sent me off to find my Gould. He confirms there was also a through carriage for the LNWR, this of course would be a Tri Compo, detached at Herne Hill and onto a Manchester London Roads express at Willesden.

 

Gould has the carriage for the MR attached to a Manchester Central train! But he isn't always correct.

 

Herne Hill could get busy. Bill

 

The Gould text I'm reading isn't that clear, but I took him to mean what you have said; that a SE&CR through coach from the LNW, rather than a LNW through coach, was joined at Herne Hill. 

 

So, I have 2 of the 50' 1907 SE&CR corridor brake comps, one 1st/3rd and one Tri-comp.  I now need to consider the question of to what they were joined for the run down to Tonbridge. 

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There is a photograph showing MR and LNWR through carriages together at Herne Hill, in 1914 IIRC. I think there are two from each railway, but will check details later today. The engine is an 0-4-4T (just the one!), which I presume had brought one of the portions into Herne Hill, was assembling the train at the time of the photo, and would then yield to a 4-4-0 for the run to the coast.

 

I'm not aware of any full, through trains from the Midland. There was, in 1914, a short, through train from the LNWR, but this went round via the WLER and never had to deal with the bad banks.

 

We should remember that the LCDR 0-4-4T were quite capable. If they could move 12-14 four-wheeled coaches up from Snow Hill they would handle 5-6 bogie vehicles without problems. And there was always a banking engine to help them up.

 

Indeed, the LCDR was very much a tank engine line within London, even to the extent, according to Ahrons, of working expresses in and out of London termini using tank engines in the late Nineteenth Century.  The SER, by contrast, was apparently content to work even suburban services with tender engines, and tender first! 

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The Gould text I'm reading isn't that clear, but I took him to mean what you have said; that a SE&CR through coach from the LNW, rather than a LNW through coach, was joined at Herne Hill. 

 

So, I have 2 of the 50' 1907 SE&CR corridor brake comps, one 1st/3rd and one Tri-comp.  I now need to consider the question of to what they were joined for the run down to Tonbridge. 

 

 

In modelling terms, it's worth noting that there are three variants of the SECR corridor brake composites - three different diagrams in SR days - and kits for two of the types. Roxey do the bicomposite  (first and third classes) built to work to the MR. Worsley Works do one of the two tricomposite types but I can't rememebr whether it was the one aimed at the LNWR or that aimed at the GWR.

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In modelling terms, it's worth noting that there are three variants of the SECR corridor brake composites - three different diagrams in SR days - and kits for two of the types. Roxey do the bicomposite  (first and third classes) built to work to the MR. Worsley Works do one of the two tricomposite types but I can't rememebr whether it was the one aimed at the LNWR or that aimed at the GWR.

 

Gould does not start too hopefully where he says "Presumably the coaches entered service on their intended workings"!

 

Gould says that the final batch of four were built for the GW service.  In addition, it seems that in 1911, two of the seven Midland-service Bi-Comps had 3rds upgraded to 2nds to run to the GW!

 

As built, we have:

 

-  Midland Service Bi-Comps, Nos. 902-908, of May 1907 (2 1sts, 4 3rds) (Roxy: http://www.roxeymouldings.co.uk/product/140/4c35-secr-50ft-brake-composite/)

-  LNW Service Tri-Comps, Nos. 913-916, of July 1907 (2 1sts, 1 2nd, 2 3rds)

-  GW Service  Tri-Comps, Nos. 909-912, of September 1907 (2 1sts, 2 2nds, 2 3rds)

Edited by Edwardian
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They would have been very used to joining and dividing trains at Herne Hill, as for many years LC&DR trains on the main line going beyond the inner suburbs mostly had portions from/to both Holborn Viaduct and Victoria which were shunted about at Herne Hill.  That's why Holborn Viaduct station had 6 not very long platforms, as it usually only handled half trains.  The Southern had to rebuild it in the 1920s to cope with the withdrawal of through passenger services via Snow Hill to the Widened Lines and HV becoming a terminus for 6- or 8-car electric suburban trains.
Incidentally, when the Queenborough Pier-Flushing steamer service was introduced in 1876, the 8.45 pm boat train from Victoria stopped at Herne Hill, where some carriages from Victoria were detached and transferred to the 8.43 pm Holborn Viaduct to Bickley local.  Fair to say that the Chatham didn't like running two trains when one would do...

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I found the pictures I was looking for.

 

post-22875-0-92681700-1517500483_thumb.jpg

 

post-22875-0-53567900-1517500529_thumb.jpg

 

In the first picture both LNWR and GWR coaches have come from Victoria to Herne Hill, having got to Victoria via the WLER.

 

In the second, the train is just the Midland portion heading north and 3 coaches is an easy load for an A class, even up 1 in 40. The coaches are low roofed, not clerestory. This is possibly because the clerestory stock was out of gauge for the the Widened Lines.

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Gould does not start too hopefully where he says "Presumably the coaches entered service on their intended workings"!

 

Gould says that the final batch of four were built for the GW service.  In addition, it seems that in 1911, two of the seven Midland-service Bi-Comps had 3rds upgraded to 2nds to run to the GW!

 

As built, we have:

 

-  Midland Service Bi-Comps, Nos. 902-908, of May 1907 (2 1sts, 4 3rds) (Roxy: http://www.roxeymouldings.co.uk/product/140/4c35-secr-50ft-brake-composite/)

-  LNW Service Tri-Comps, Nos. 913-916, of July 1907 (2 1sts, 1 2nd, 2 3rds)

-  GW Service  Tri-Comps, Nos. 909-912, of September 1907 (2 1sts, 2 2nds, 2 3rds)

 

I am not familiar with this Gould book but from what I have read elsewhere there were MR & LNWR coaches that ran through on these services. That would be in line with what usually happened on inter-regional services: each railway company supplied the coaches on alternate days.

 

Edit: As proved by the photos above, posted as I was typing.

 

Such a pity that there are no obvious scenic breaks which would allow one to model Herne Hill in a reasonable space. What a great layout it could be visually and operationally. Perhaps it could be done if viewed from the east side as there is a large pub building which could be a view block.

Edited by Joseph_Pestell
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I am not familiar with this Gould book but from what I have read elsewhere there were MR & LNWR coaches that ran through on these services. That would be in line with what usually happened on inter-regional services: each railway company supplied the coaches on alternate days.

 

Edit: As proved by the photos above, posted as I was typing.

 

 

Alternating stock is certainly possible, and is confirmed in Gould for some of the GWR through trains. However, the picture I posted above are c.1900 and the SECR's fancy, gangwayed coaches weren't built until 1907. I speculate that they were only built because of a new agreement for the SECR to provide stock in corridor trains of other railways. No other gangwayed stock was built in Mr. Wainwright's tenure.

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Final pic of an LNWR through train (apologies for the wonky scan):

 

post-22875-0-50686700-1517503287_thumb.jpg

 

This is on the ex-LCDR bit, but west of Chislehurst, so it's not completely certain which way it will go when it gets there. The "two double-ended break composites" are quite likely 9' wide which raises loading-gauge issues on the ex-SER section. EDIT: the LNWRS site lists D212 and D242, both built in 1913, which are double-ended brake composites to 8'6" width.

 

Note the dining saloon!  :O 

Edited by Guy Rixon
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I thought that too, but if you follow the footnotes I think the train went complete, and the rest are connections, which tallies with Bradshaw.

 

Agree.  I struggled until I worked out that clicking on the image made it large enough for me to read the changes:

 

Tonbridge for Tunbridge Wells, Bexhill, St Leonards and Hastings 

 

Ashford for Canterbury West

 

Herne Hill for Margate West and Ramsgate Harbour

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