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Motor Rail & Tramcar Co. Standard Gauge Locomotives


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I was reading NeilHB's Burnside Tramway thread, here http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/117525-burneside-tramway-in-7mm-scale/page-4 and thought rather than derail it with more about Motor Rail petrol and diesel locomotives we ought to have a thread especially about them as there is a lot to the subject, even before we get on to the Kent Construction copies, the Hibberd copies and the rebuilds...

 

The company was known as Motor Rail & Tramcar Company Ltd. from its formation in 1911 until 1931 when it became Motor Rail Ltd.

The first standard gauge loco was built in 1919.

 

The 1932 catalogue featured 3 standard gauge types - the 8-ton 40/50HP petrol, the 10-ton 40/50HP petrol  and the 65/85HP 12-ton diesel. The first two looked alike but the diesel was  quite different. All used the 2-speed Simplex patent gearbox, which was mounted transversely and drove the axles through roller chains.

 

The petrol engines would no doubt have been the Dorman 4JO units, which were used in the company's wartime 60cm gauge 40HP tractors (open, protected and armoured variants), known by enthusiasts as "Tin Turtles". The manufacture of the diesel engine is not stated in the catalogue but was probably also a Dorman.

 

post-494-0-68360900-1515691811_thumb.jpg

10-ton 40/50HP as shown in the 1932 catalogue. Note handrail position and split-spoke wheels. The split-spoke wheels look very old fashioned and make me wonder if this is a photo of a loco much earlier than 1932.

 

post-494-0-84168500-1515692210_thumb.jpg

An undated photo taken in Motor Rail's Elstow Road works in Bedford. I have no details of the loco but it's clearly the same type with slight alterations in the handrails and wheels and buffers of a different style.

 

post-494-0-39001900-1515692392_thumb.jpg

No doubt this is the same locomotive as above but with the background airbrushed out for a publicity shot.

 

post-494-0-54198200-1515692661_thumb.jpg

A slighty later version of the petrol locomotive. The radius rods for the suspension have been relocated from the ends to a central position, with alterations to the frame to suit.

 

And now the 65/85HP locomotives.

post-494-0-81262300-1515693259_thumb.jpg

12-ton 65/85HP loco from the 1932 catalogue.

 

post-494-0-96840700-1515693349_thumb.jpg

Clearly an aribrushed photo, taken in the works yard. Note the full-length step/running board and the huge cast iron weights cabside and front. The black cylinder is most probably an air brake reciever. Another small difference is the number of panes of glass in the cab end window.

 

I have more photos of other types, and drawings of these but I've done enough for now. Enjoy and discuss...

Edited by Ruston
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Thank you Ruston for the new thread - this makes me very happy. I love Motor Rails - they are such dainty machines that are very much undervalued.

 

That’s a cracking photo (even if it is airbrushed) of the 12-Ton 65/85HP loco, I haven’t seen that photo before and it shows up the details nicely.

 

There are some loco preserved examples that have been restored to working order - 2 Motor Rails (Ubique and Morris) and one of the Worthington Hibberd copies at Chasewater, plus the second Hibberd at the Bass Brewery Museum.

 

There is also the lovingly restored ‘Burt’ at Amberley Narrow Gauge Museum - complete with his own dedicated railway in the area around the restored De Witt Lime Kilns:

 

burt01.jpg

 

I think operational wise there is also one (ex WD) at the East Lancs Railway, though this one is rather different with a taller, completely enclosed cab that is somewhat reminiscent of the Great Western owned Motor Rails.

 

Non-operational wise there are far more, and many that are, let’s face in, in not particularly good condition. The two ex ICI Tunstead ones at the Midland Railway Centre are a prime example! Sadly though I don’t think that many of the bigger Railways feel there is much need for a loco of this size.

 

Perhaps we need a Motor Rail care facility where they can be given some much needed tlc and a chance to roam free... :-)

Edited by NeilHB
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20 and 40hp petrol locos we’re 2 or 4 JO W H Dorman units, later these were updated as a model to the JOR which were an updated model with separate ‘Recardo’ heads. The JO was a WD subsidy engine.

Diesels were often Dorman 2 or 4 DWD units but others are used.

Sadly The Dorman of Stafford name was lost a few years ago following take over by Perkins.

 

Dorman also provides the route that W G Bagnall enetered the English Electric, in that Dormans purchased Bagnalls then English Electric purchased Dormans.

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Thank you Ruston for the new thread - this makes me very happy. I love Motor Rails - they are such dainty machines that are very much undervalued.

 

That’s a cracking photo (even if it is airbrushed) of the 12-Ton 65/85HP loco, I haven’t seen that photo before and it shows up the details nicely.

 

There are some loco preserved examples that have been restored to working order - 2 Motor Rails (Ubique and Morris) and one of the Worthington Hibberd copies at Chasewater, plus the second Hibberd at the Bass Brewery Museum.

 

There is also the lovingly restored ‘Burt’ at Amberley Narrow Gauge Museum - complete with his own dedicated railway in the area around the restored De Witt Lime Kilns:

 

 

 

I think operational wise there is also one (ex WD) at the East Lancs Railway, though this one is rather different with a taller, completely enclosed cab that is somewhat reminiscent of the Great Western owned Motor Rails.

 

Non-operational wise there are far more, and many that are, let’s face in, in not particularly good condition. The two ex ICI Tunstead ones at the Midland Railway Centre are a prime example! Sadly though I don’t think that many of the bigger Railways feel there is much need for a loco of this size.

 

Perhaps we need a Motor Rail care facility where they can be given some much needed tlc and a chance to roam free... :-)

I always thought the one at the ELR was new to Woolworths. At least the ICI ones at the Midland Railway Centre are still with us; ISTR that the Chasewater were so careless as to allow the frames of  the former Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway example to be stolen by scrap metal thieves!

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I always thought the one at the ELR was new to Woolworths. At least the ICI ones at the Midland Railway Centre are still with us; ISTR that the Chasewater were so careless as to allow the frames of the former Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway example to be stolen by scrap metal thieves!

And a wheel set, sadly when the pikeys turn up alsorts go we even lost about a 1/4 of a mile of track that was at the rear of a row of houses but no one thought to call the police.

Edited by Beatty 139
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Thank you Ruston for the new thread - this makes me very happy. I love Motor Rails - they are such dainty machines that are very much undervalued.

 

That’s a cracking photo (even if it is airbrushed) of the 12-Ton 65/85HP loco, I haven’t seen that photo before and it shows up the details nicely.

 

There are some loco preserved examples that have been restored to working order - 2 Motor Rails (Ubique and Morris) and one of the Worthington Hibberd copies at Chasewater, plus the second Hibberd at the Bass Brewery Museum.

 

There is also the lovingly restored ‘Burt’ at Amberley Narrow Gauge Museum - complete with his own dedicated railway in the area around the restored De Witt Lime Kilns:

 

burt01.jpg

 

I think operational wise there is also one (ex WD) at the East Lancs Railway, though this one is rather different with a taller, completely enclosed cab that is somewhat reminiscent of the Great Western owned Motor Rails.

 

Non-operational wise there are far more, and many that are, let’s face in, in not particularly good condition. The two ex ICI Tunstead ones at the Midland Railway Centre are a prime example! Sadly though I don’t think that many of the bigger Railways feel there is much need for a loco of this size.

 

Perhaps we need a Motor Rail care facility where they can be given some much needed tlc and a chance to roam free... :-)

Nice to see where the Amberley standard gauge track is. I was involved in conservation work many years ago, and West Sussex CC used us a lot, so I spent a couple of weekends at Amberley. We cleared most of the bricks out of the old kiln(made a change from cutting down trees), so assume that is the location.  Unfortunately did not have a chance to properly look around(spare time spent eating and drinking!).

There are a few mods compared to the original loco, in particular the upright hand rails/roof supports.

 

I gather the East Lancs one was working(just?) last week, earning its keep. I was going to visit to measure it up, but then found drawings of an original, and there are quite a few photos of the ELR one, online. There were quite a few variations with the higher cab, and the ELR one does now have what looks like a more comfortable(well at least padded) seat.

 

I know the Moseley Trust have most of the Motor Rail documentation, but not sure if that is just the narrow gauge items, or everything.

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Another type, which appears to be a slightly modernised version of the 65/85HP loco but with welded plate frames.
post-494-0-81928400-1516133228_thumb.jpg

There was another version of the above that had a full-length engine compartment, that worked at Hindlow lime works. I saw it in about 1987 when it was preserved at Buxton. Does anyone know what became of it?

 

This one I know nothing about it other than it resides at the Foxfield Railway.

post-494-0-60201000-1516133497_thumb.jpg

 

And now the small stuff, though not the smallest.

post-494-0-11524500-1516133791_thumb.jpg

This one is probably w/n 9921 of 1959, at Hemel Hempstead Concrete Works. It weighed 8 tons and was powered by a 3-cylinder Dorman 3LB diesel of 50 HP. A challenge to model in 4mm.

 

Another of the same type, but presumably built after 1972, due to the Simplex branding, which was used afterMotor Rail Ltd. was taken over and traded as Simplex Mechanical Handling. The loco is shown, presumably just after delivery, at Fort Dunlop.

post-494-0-10990700-1516134309_thumb.jpg

 

And now the smallest standard gauge Motor Rail and probably one of the smallest production standard gauge locomotives to have been used in the UK. This loco was based on Motor Rail's smallest narrow gauge type, the 20HP, Petter diesel-engined G-series and was built for use at British Rail's Wolverton Works.

post-494-0-15555200-1516134714_thumb.jpg

 

.

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The Foxfield loco looks like a 65hp loco, there is a photo in WJK Davies book. Unfortunately the drawing in the book is of a metre gauge one which is slightly shorter, but does look similar width.

 

Those small SG locos look fun. Who said they could not be done in 4mm scale? If only I had some drawings! As they are presumably post 1931, there is nothing about about them in the book. Was a second volume ever written? It does suggest there was one planned.

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Does anyone have further dimensions, or a sketch, for Hemel Hempstead Concrete No. 9921/59

e.g.

wheelbase, diameter of wheels, length over buffers ?

.

I'd certainly give one a go in 7mm, 4mm would be pushing it, but not impossible.

.

Brian R 

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Alan Keef Ltd. in Ross-on-Wye took over Motor Rail in 1987. Alan, who holds their archives, has recently had two books published on Motor Rail Simplex by Lightmoor Press.

 

post-6861-0-17105100-1516199752_thumb.jpeg

 

 

post-6861-0-05738500-1516199825_thumb.jpeg

 

I know Alan and he brought copies round just before Christmas. I haven’t bought them yet but they are published to a very high standard, like all Lightmoor Press books, and contain an immense amount of information and numerous photographs. Not cheap but well worth having a look at.

 

.

 

.

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The Foxfield loco looks like a 65hp loco, there is a photo in WJK Davies book. Unfortunately the drawing in the book is of a metre gauge one which is slightly shorter, but does look similar width.

 

Those small SG locos look fun. Who said they could not be done in 4mm scale? If only I had some drawings! As they are presumably post 1931, there is nothing about about them in the book. Was a second volume ever written? It does suggest there was one planned.

I actually discussed this with Keith Davies and there were to be one or more further volumes to to take the story beyond the original volume. Sadly with his passing that was not to be, so Alan Keef took on the mantle.

 

I also discussed with Keith about reissue of his "Light Railways of the First World War" book published by David & Charles but he explained to me the problems that prevented that idea.

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Part of a Motor Rail brochure in my collection, showing the 99xx type and the 65/85HP with full bonnet, as I mentioned in my last post. The 65/85 has now become 100HP. This brochure would have been from the 1960s. Any ideas on the location of the 50HP working under the wires?

post-494-0-89206500-1516219007_thumb.jpg

The claimed haulage capacity of the 50HP loco is quite impressive on the level when compared to the similar weight (7.5 tons) and power of the Ruston 48DS, in ist gear, which is only 166 tons but on gradients there is not such a great difference:  1 in 100 77 tons, 1 in 75 62 tons, 1 in 50 46 tons and 1 in 30 29 tons.

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Any ideas on the location of the 50HP working under the wires?

 

 

I think its taken at the London Brick Company's Coronation Brickworks, Kempston Hardwick, just south of Bedford           

 

The works was served by standard gauge sidings which used an unusual two wire overhead system, similar to that used for trolley buses.  A similar system was used on the narrow gauge system at Llechwedd Quarry, Blaenau Ffestiniog.  The details of the overhead system appear to be similar in the Motor Rail photo.  

 

London Brick were good customers of Motor Rail for narrow gauge locomotives but had very few standard gauge Motor Rails.

  

Edited by PGH
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Not one of the company's standard gauge designs, but a standard gauge conversion, was works No 5355. This was used at Southampton Docks but ended up in a private backyard 'collection' ( it was basically a big heap). I saw it parked by the roadside when the site was being cleared. Full story here (second item) http://www.hias.org.uk/Focus/focus64.htm#A Simplex locomotive from Southampton Docks.

 

I have no idea what happened to it since.

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Not one of the company's standard gauge designs, but a standard gauge conversion, was works No 5355. This was used at Southampton Docks but ended up in a private backyard 'collection' ( it was basically a big heap). I saw it parked by the roadside when the site was being cleared. Full story here (second item) http://www.hias.org.uk/Focus/focus64.htm#A Simplex locomotive from Southampton Docks.

 

I have no idea what happened to it since.

 

I believe it is now being restored at Twyford Waterworks Museum in Hampshire, and has been converted back to 2ft gauge.

 

Andy

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I'm hoping to do something with some of these Simplex's in 4mm scale... can anyone point me in the direction of some drawings to work from? Especially the 12-ton 65/85HP and the smaller 8-ton 50HP?

 

I've been modelling a 40S narrow gauge one in 7/8ths scale (see my thread) and have done lots of 009 modelling and kit design... I'd love to try a standard gauge industrial next!

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I did a 3D print design for original standard gauge version(in scales from N up to G1) drawings online, but subsequently found they were slightly changed in production, so I altered the roof profile. 

There are drawings in book by Davies, but I think many designs were changed to customer specification. The single ended ones have variations, looking at photos. For the bigger version 65hp version ,there are drawings for a metre gauge version, which is similar,but different to the standard gauge version.

The Moseley Trust produced a book for the narrow gauge versions, which has drawings for those, but it might be possible to deduce standard gauge versions from these.

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I'm hoping to do something with some of these Simplex's in 4mm scale... can anyone point me in the direction of some drawings to work from? Especially the 12-ton 65/85HP and the smaller 8-ton 50HP?

 

I've been modelling a 40S narrow gauge one in 7/8ths scale (see my thread) and have done lots of 009 modelling and kit design... I'd love to try a standard gauge industrial next!

I've got drawings for both versions. I'll post them here some time.

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Just receive the other twobooks on Simplex/Motor Rail. Fascinating stuff.Pity there are no drawings of Helen , now at Foxfield. Also the 14 ton 85hp loco would make a nice model, but again no drawings. Can't tell if it is just a beafed up standard gauge 40hp loco. 

But there are drawings of the 5ohp 8ton loco, which I gather is based on the narrow gauge 60S loco. There is a photo showing a narrower body on a standard gauge loco. Not sure if it is a cut and paste job, but it looks like a 60S on wider gauge(can't see how they fitted wheels ).

Knocked up a design this afternoon. A pretty basic design, no frills.

sg-50hp-8t-simplex-loco-1a.jpg

There are a couple of smaller locos. One is the one based on a G, at Wolverton carriage sheds. Looks like it is not much more tat a wider bigger cab, and buffers added. The other is the less successful Unilok, which was OK with continental wagons , but could not work very well with British ones. It would be a challenge to make a working model in any scale.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I was reading NeilHB's Burnside Tramway thread, here http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/117525-burneside-tramway-in-7mm-scale/page-4 and thought rather than derail it with more about Motor Rail petrol and diesel locomotives we ought to have a thread especially about them as there is a lot to the subject, even before we get on to the Kent Construction copies, the Hibberd copies and the rebuilds...

 

The company was known as Motor Rail & Tramcar Company Ltd. from its formation in 1911 until 1931 when it became Motor Rail Ltd.

The first standard gauge loco was built in 1919.

 

The 1932 catalogue featured 3 standard gauge types - the 8-ton 40/50HP petrol, the 10-ton 40/50HP petrol  and the 65/85HP 12-ton diesel. The first two looked alike but the diesel was  quite different. All used the 2-speed Simplex patent gearbox, which was mounted transversely and drove the axles through roller chains.

 

The petrol engines would no doubt have been the Dorman 4JO units, which were used in the company's wartime 60cm gauge 40HP tractors (open, protected and armoured variants), known by enthusiasts as "Tin Turtles". The manufacture of the diesel engine is not stated in the catalogue but was probably also a Dorman.

 

attachicon.gifMRTC04.jpg

10-ton 40/50HP as shown in the 1932 catalogue. Note handrail position and split-spoke wheels. The split-spoke wheels look very old fashioned and make me wonder if this is a photo of a loco much earlier than 1932.

 

attachicon.gifMRTC02.jpg

An undated photo taken in Motor Rail's Elstow Road works in Bedford. I have no details of the loco but it's clearly the same type with slight alterations in the handrails and wheels and buffers of a different style.

 

attachicon.gifMRTC01.jpg

No doubt this is the same locomotive as above but with the background airbrushed out for a publicity shot.

 

attachicon.gifMRTC03.jpg

A slighty later version of the petrol locomotive. The radius rods for the suspension have been relocated from the ends to a central position, with alterations to the frame to suit.

 

And now the 65/85HP locomotives.

attachicon.gifMRTC05.jpg

12-ton 65/85HP loco from the 1932 catalogue.

 

attachicon.gifMRTC06.jpg

Clearly an aribrushed photo, taken in the works yard. Note the full-length step/running board and the huge cast iron weights cabside and front. The black cylinder is most probably an air brake reciever. Another small difference is the number of panes of glass in the cab end window.

 

I have more photos of other types, and drawings of these but I've done enough for now. Enjoy and discuss...

 

Which came first the standard gauge or the narrow gauge? The standard gauge 'tin-turtle' came first, but what about the other? Were the designs changed for 2 foot or the other way round?

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