Dapol 4mm Scale Terrier

[sem34090]

Hi All,

 

I'm sure I'm not the first to wonder this, but I thought I'd create a thread on it.

 

Having asked Dapol this question, at least a year ago, I was told that, whilst it had been considered it had been discounted because of one thing:

The dated Hornby (ex-Dapol!) model.

 

The reason being is that, although charging high prices now, Hornby could very easily drop the A1x to the railroad range at a consequently cheaper price, Dapol said that they were basically worried that people would go for the cheaper model. They thought it likely that Hornby would do this as they had already dropped the 1400 (We saw how well that went, but at the time the model hadn't released), Class 73 and Class 90 (All announced by other firms, one by DJM, another by Dapol and the other by Bachmann). It seems this year has continued that trend, with Dapol's new class 121 and forthcoming class 59 now threatened with competition from Hornby.

 

I'm just curious what peoples opinions are on this, and whether they think this is Hornby intentionally pricing out a smaller manufacturer, or just a coincidence.

 

All the best,

 

sem34090

 

EDIT (24/03/2018): Since the announcement of Dapol making a new 00 'Terrier' range, I have renamed this thread to reflect this. For those wishing to look only at material relating to the newly announced model should skip straight to page 6.

Edited March 24, 2018 by sem34090

[Richard Lee]

When I noticed that Hornby had not announced any Terriers this year I speculated on another forum that they might be thinking of moving it to the Railroad range.  I had hoped that they might do another non-Isle of Wight one in SR Maunsell green.  Someone who also posts on this forum made what seemed to me to be an intelligent comment that they might choose to make on this forum as well.

 

By the way, I love the Hornby Terriers despite their flaws.  My first locomotive was a mainland Hornby Terrier in SR Maunsell green.  They are a bit noisier than some newer models, but they go nice and slow.  There is daylight under the boiler (not much because of the size of the loco).  You can pick them up without worrying about detail breaking off, which can be useful if you have a fiddle yard.  (I would be a bit wary of routinely picking up my Bachmann E4 or my Hornby M7s several times per routine operating session.)  At the same time they are a lot more detailed and generally nicer looking than, for instance, the old Hornby E2.

[sem34090]

Can't say I don't love them: I have four (OK, so one's been done as Beulah in her 2-4-0 form, and the other is on loan to a friend...) of them, and probably wouldn't replace them: just add more!

[PaulRhB]

You can't blame Hornby for keeping a model going they believe has a market. Many on here have said they would be glad to have a budget option for those who prefer operation rather than ultra detail or whose kids like terriers and can't justify giving them a £100+ model.

When Hornby replaced the HST they kept a Railroad version for a while so they do it within their own range.

[woodenhead]

The models in the Railroad range are generally older models that have paid for their toolings so are a bit of a cash cow as well as being a cheaper alternative to those who don't want to pay or cannot afford the higher end models.

 

I don't think they aim to undercut rivals but if there is a market for a model and they have that model in their inventory then why not produce it.  

 

Also if Dapol were that concerned about being undercut why do the 51/6100 models - Hornby have one of those too. 

[JSpencer]

Hi All,

 

I'm sure I'm not the first to wonder this, but I thought I'd create a thread on it.

 

Having asked Dapol this question, at least a year ago, I was told that, whilst it had been considered it had been discounted because of one thing:

The dated Hornby (ex-Dapol!) model.

 

The reason being is that, although charging high prices now, Hornby could very easily drop the A1x to the railroad range at a consequently cheaper price, Dapol said that they were basically worried that people would go for the cheaper model. They thought it likely that Hornby would do this as they had already dropped the 1400 (We saw how well that went, but at the time the model hadn't released), Class 73 and Class 90 (All announced by other firms, one by DJM, another by Dapol and the other by Bachmann). It seems this year has continued that trend, with Dapol's new class 121 and forthcoming class 59 now threatened with competition from Hornby.

 

I'm just curious what peoples opinions are on this, and whether they think this is Hornby intentionally pricing out a smaller manufacturer, or just a coincidence.

 

All the best,

 

sem34090

 

I have a hard time imagining this one. It would have been like Dapol announce their class 73 to replace the old Lima one, I order 2 them, then boom, Hornby sticks theirs in the railroad range causing me to cancel the Dapol 73 and go for the railroad models instead....

Nope - I cannot see myself doing that to be honest.

 

I have enough of the old Terriers that the only way I would buy another would be new tooling to modern standards. Hornby can put theirs in Railroad but I certainly would not buy another with a superior offering on the way.

 

I am certain class 59 fans will snap up the Dapol models rather buy additional Lima/Hornby ones too unless the livery or something is below standard.

[PatB]

In a theoretical sort of way I'd be interested in a Railroad priced Terrier as I have an idea (among so many ) for a pre-Grouping Minories using a fleet of Terriers hauling trains of Stroudley 4-wheelers and, maybe, a GEM Gladstone on a morning and evening prestige service. As noted above, operation over ultra-detail.

[sem34090]

If Hornby weren't suggesting an £85 RRP, then I might be inclined to agree.

 

I like the sound of that minories idea... might need to pinch that one!

[No Decorum]

I am certain class 59 fans will snap up the Dapol models rather buy additional Lima/Hornby ones too unless the livery or something is below standard.

For what its worth, some years ago I was sent a 59 by accident. It would have been easy to keep it and re-order what I should have been sent. However, I couldn’t reconcile myself to it and returned it. I have long felt that a decent 59 is long overdue and I can see myself buying fewer of the Dapols than I would like but more than I can afford.

 

A funny little detail. On the real 59s and 66s, the axlebox covers turn. On the Bachmann 66 they don‘t and I thought it too much to expect. Yet this is what Dapol has promised. It’s prominent on the real thing and on the model it is just the sort of little detail which suckers me in, pathetic case that I am.

[Richard Lee]

If Hornby weren't suggesting an £85 RRP, then I might be inclined to agree.

 

I like the sound of that minories idea... might need to pinch that one!

You are best shopping around for Terriers as they are frequently discounted.  I wouldn't to wish to stump up £85 for a Hornby Terrier either.  My latest (July 2017) was £54.99 from a certain Cornish model shop that sells over the internet, and has the Cornish name for Cornwall (with a 'K') as the major part of its name.  The Terrier is in a loverly SECR livery, and has pushed my smaller layout 6 years later than it was, and moved the fictional location eastward towards the border with the SECR.

Edited January 13, 2018 by Richard Lee

[Dunsignalling]

There is almost certainly an element of "Chicken or Egg" about this. I think it inevitable irrespective of Hornby's motives. 

 

The pressure is on Hornby to shift outdated models to Railroad when better versions become available elsewhere just as if they were to release an upgraded one themselves.

 

On the one hand, it looks look they are trying to undercut the new model, but on the other hand it reflects the reality that their existing model has been relegated to "budget" status by the emergence of a superior alternative. Isn't this is exactly the function that Railroad was intended to fulfil?

 

If Hornby themselves did a new Terrier, they would undoubtedly move the old one into their second division. The difference is that they would choose the moment to do so differently.

 

I'd certainly buy Terriers built to modern standards, whatever Hornby did with the existing one and however cheap it became.

 

John

Edited January 13, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[Roy Langridge]

You are best shopping around for Terriers as they are frequently discounted. I wouldn't to wish to stump up £85 for a Hornby Terrier either. My latest (July 2017) was £54.99 from a certain Cornish model shop that sells over the internet, and has the Cornish name for Cornwall (with a 'K') as the major part of its name. The Terrier is in a loverly SECR livery, and has pushed my smaller layout 6 years later than it was, and moved the fictional location eastward towards the border with the SECR.

For pities sake, why not just say Kernow? It is not, as far as I am aware, against any rules.

 

As for a new Terrier, yes please. I love them but will not buy the current model as it is too long outdated.

 

Roy

Edited January 13, 2018 by Roy Langridge

[adb968008]

last collectors club magazine discusses research topics and use of NRM archives.

it comes with a picture of the LBSCR Archive... make of it what you will, but the terrier is the only thing in the lbscr range i'd imagine Hornby might have an interest in.

[Ian J.]

Maybe Dapol do feel that they'd be competing with the older tooling, but conversely, and perhaps perversely, the main reason no-one else is doing a Terrier is probably because as soon as they announce it, even if the model is ready for sale, Dapol could very easily create a 4mm version from their research and CADs. Either way, it seems whoever did it is damned if they do, and damned if they don't.

 

FWIW, I do think there's space for a high detail accurate version, and a 'toy' version. They are very different markets, really.

[alfsboy]

Its up to Oxford then .Come in Oxford ,your time has come.

I think its terrible that we have to put up with a very old model when we have the market and technology to produce a classic and Iconic loco.

[Anglian]

I'm very surprised that Hornby hasn't yet updated the model and moved the older one to the Railroad range. However, I'm equally surprised that Dapol haven't made use of their research to make a 4mm version.

 

I can see it selling very well for either manufacturer, given the long service life of the real thing. Given that Hattons have shown that precise detail differences can be accommodated, over a range of liveries, with their P Class, makes me think that such a model would be a winner if handled in the same way. Who ever made them could run endless named LBSC versions for the collector's market.

 

With Hattons taking the P perhaps it might fall to another retailer to go for the Terrier. I sincerely hope somebody does as I would buy multiples and I'm sure others would do the same. 

 

Of course Hornby might also be considering updating their even older E2 model but I don't think that would sell nearly as well as the Terrier.

Edited January 13, 2018 by Anglian

[No Decorum]

The E2 might do well now that we have a couple of LBSC umber models available or on the way. As for the Terrier, yes please, but that comes with a warning. Unless a new model is without flaws, I won’t bother. On the other hand, if it is good and offered in as many varieties as, for example, Hatton’s P or Model Rail’s USA, who knows how many I might buy.

[Dunsignalling]

I'm very surprised that Hornby hasn't yet updated the model and moved the older one to the Railroad range. However, I'm equally surprised that Dapol haven't made use of their research to make a 4mm version.

 

 

I suspect that each is expecting the other to do it, and we won't get what we want until one of them blinks. 

 

John

Edited January 13, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[PatB]

If Hornby weren't suggesting an £85 RRP, then I might be inclined to agree.

 

I like the sound of that minories idea... might need to pinch that one!

 

Feel free. It's not as if I'm ever likely to do anything with it .

 

It simply occurred to me that the Terrier was designed for just the sort of suburban services that Minories is supposed to accommodate. Smallbrook Studio do some relatively easy to build Stroudleys (technically IoW versions but I tend towards the impressionistic side of railway modelling; if any inaccuracy offends there are other kits). Even a lengthy train of 4-wheelers can be quite short overall, which suits the somewhat foreshortened "classic" Minories without looking ridiculous. Given the Victorian habit of ballasting almost to the rail tops you could quite reasonably use Peco FB Streamline in either flavour and it still wouldn't look too bad. All up I can't see many downsides and it would be different .

[PatB]

It certainly seems that Terriers are in demand. This example has clearly been dropped, it's got various bits missing and it's a non-runner, and it's still got to better than 20 quid with a couple of hours to go.

[adb968008]

It certainly seems that Terriers are in demand. This example has clearly been dropped, it's got various bits missing and it's a non-runner, and it's still got to better than 20 quid with a couple of hours to go.

Worth £20 for the chassis, use it under an industrial.

[PatB]

Worth £20 for the chassis, use it under an industrial.

 

True, but the chassis doesn't  work. Sure, it might be (probably is) something simple but, OTOH, it might not and you can get any number of working low end locos for less than 20 quid from other sources.

[Richard Lee]

[snip]

 

It simply occurred to me that the Terrier was designed for just the sort of suburban services that Minories is supposed to accommodate. Smallbrook Studio do some relatively easy to build Stroudleys (technically IoW versions but I tend towards the impressionistic side of railway modelling; if any inaccuracy offends there are other kits). Even a lengthy train of 4-wheelers can be quite short overall, which suits the somewhat foreshortened "classic" Minories without looking ridiculous. Given the Victorian habit of ballasting almost to the rail tops you could quite reasonably use Peco FB Streamline in either flavour and it still wouldn't look too bad. All up I can't see many downsides and it would be different .

If you cut the battery boxes and truss rods off the Smallbrook Studio kits, it makes quite a difference to the looks.  Very easy to do if you have one of those cordless multi-tools from Lidl or Aldi, or something similar.

 

What I didn't do which I would if I was to do again was to is use a little bit of thin plasti-card to cover up the panelling on the guard's ducket.  That probably isn't so noticeable though.

 

When I painted mine, I undercoated with grey car primer first, and then mahogany from a shop that does spray cans for cars.  I understand that 'mahogany' then was a bit redder than some shades called "mahogany" now.  I didn't bother to do the lining, I am afraid.  One of the Brighton Circle members who posts on RMWeb was kind enough to let me have some transfers.

 

There are some very good etched brass kits from Roxey Mouldings that give more than the 3 types that Smallbrook Studio do.  Unfortunately, I don't think that I have the skills to make them, so I went for the Smallbrook ones.

 

If you are looking for loco crew, Langley Miniatures do Victorian/Edwardians, as well as suitable potential passengers.

[Synch]

I have been quite surprised that Dapol haven't announced one within the last 2-3 years, but given the discussion here I can understand their hesitation.  It does however seem a bit unfounded when you think about, given the age of the old Dapol/Hornby tooling not many people are going to be interested in more of that, even with a price reduction in the Railroad range (and more basic liveries to boot), in my mind aside from a handful of people looking for the cheap and cheerful option, there's nothing Dapol have to fear of going for the third scale with this prototype, seeing as this is definitely a type that people have been wanting an up to date version of.

[Edwardian]

Its up to Oxford then .Come in Oxford ,your time has come.

I think its terrible that we have to put up with a very old model when we have the market and technology to produce a classic and Iconic loco.

 

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!