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Ground signal nightmare


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Hi folks,

 

Would any of the fine folk of RM Web be able to offer me some guidance on where the ground signals should be placed on the attached layout plan.  The semaphore's seem straight forward - each platform has a starter and out to the right is a home for the main platform and a bracket with the home for the bay road.  Its the pesky ground signals that is confusing me.

 

I am also unsure how they work,  The bracket home makes sense.  Its either all stop, proceed ahead or proceed left to the bay road, but the NER ground signals I have to control shunting are either stop or go... so how do you know which way on a crossing your being routed?

 

I have already spotted a place where there should be a ground signal - coming off the loco shed.

 

Confused.com...

 

Cheers,

 

D.

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Dale all the Goods Yard points would be hand worked and no signals, and in all probability also the points Headshunt + Goods Yard. Coming out of the Bay Platform would be a Full size arm.

 Discs often read to several routes, or can be placed side by side or "Stacked". What year approx are you modelling? I have a lot of NERly info. Yours, Mick.

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Is this looking any better then?

 

I admit i remain confused.  Should there be a shunt signal at all three points of a turnout?

 

Edit: 1930's LNER, ex NER 

 

So the signal at the far right of the headshunt should be a small-arm semaphore being painted yellow with a black stripe?  That allows you to pass either to that stub siding or out onto the main running line?

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Edited by Dale
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Dale, here is a complete signalling layout, and how I would personally model it, note, being fictisus, there is no final answer. I have removed one of the X Overs, it serves no purpose, and I have also moved the cattle dock into the Depots. The points at the far end of the platform are pressumed to be either Sprung or hand worked.In all 11 signals, 3 points and 3 Facing Point Locks, 20 lever locking frame with 3 spares. By 1930, the LNERly may have made the Distant signal "Fixed" and possibly dispensed with the Starting signal, if so 15 working levers, 5 spare. In error, I have omitted the signal "Bay to Shed".

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Dale, here is a complete signalling layout, and how I would personally model it, note, being fictisus, there is no final answer. I have removed one of the X Overs, it serves no purpose, and I have also moved the cattle dock into the Depots. The points at the far end of the platform are pressumed to be either Sprung or hand worked.In all 11 signals, 3 points and 3 Facing Point Locks, 20 lever locking frame with 3 spares. By 1930, the LNERly may have made the Distant signal "Fixed" and possibly dispensed with the Starting signal, if so 15 working levers, 5 spare. In error, I have omitted the signal "Bay to Shed".

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I think you have also omitted a ground signal at the exit from the headshunt, given that movements into and out of the run round loop, which overlap movements from the headshunt to both the loop and the sidings, are signalled. Unless geographical constraints prevent it, the points at the loop end of the crossover and into the sidings are a prime candidate for a "Barry Slip" -

 

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(Culled from a post by Martin Wynne on the previous incarnation of RMWeb)

 

using one avoids the issues of having a hand worked point in the signalled route from the main line to the run round loop. It also simplifies the signal for exiting the headshunt in that can, depending on your time period, be made a yellow shunt signal, cleared only for moves from the headshunt to the loop. The same can be said of the shunt signal relating to moves from the loop to the main line.

 

Turning to the spring points at the other end o fthe loop, the question needs to be asked as to how goods trains will be operated. If the intention is to run them directly into the loop from the main line, then these points will need to be worked, as the locomotive will need to run round via the platform line, and the shunt signal will be needed. Alternatively, if goods trains are run into the platform, the loco run round, and the train then drawn back onto the mainline before being propelled into the loop, then the points could be left as sprung.

 

Jim

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Jim, thanks for your comments, the Spring points and signal are taken from Hornsea, hypothetical on a model, they would obviously need to be "Worked". Siding to Depots, I omitted the signal, not all locations had one, example Beverley Cherry Tree, though here the LNERly rectified the matter in 1939, possibly because there was a level crossing involved. At Withernsea, there were hand points within a signalled move, and also after the turntable was removed Spring Points the same as Hornsea.

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Jim, thanks for your comments, the Spring points and signal are taken from Hornsea, hypothetical on a model, they would obviously need to be "Worked". Siding to Depots, I omitted the signal, not all locations had one, example Beverley Cherry Tree, though here the LNERly rectified the matter in 1939, possibly because there was a level crossing involved. At Withernsea, there were hand points within a signalled move, and also after the turntable was removed Spring Points the same as Hornsea.

The problem with signalling, especially when looking at stuff going back into the pre-Group era is that there wasn't a single set of rules and changes occurred only slowly, especially when the layout in question was never modified. The result is a lot of ifs, buts, maybes and company differences.

 

Jim

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Thanks for all the input folks and I can certainly appreciate the comments about the middle cross over but the track is already laid as per my initial drawing.  This is an existing layout to which I am trying to add as prototypical signalling as both the plan and the operational intent will allow for.  I am sure modellers licence will need to be applied in spades but such is life, i'm OK with that.

 

D.

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Nice idea but my partner in crime wants to be able to use that crossover for an engine to run around its coaching stock whilst a second engine can continue to shunt the yard.

 

Goods trains arrive on the platform road.  The train engine shunts the brake van out of the way, into the cattle dock or engine release if using the first crossover, or any siding it likes if using the second.  It can then propel the goods train into any of the goods sidings by using the outer crossover. And thus the platform is quickly cleared for passenger action.

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I am also unsure how they work, The bracket home makes sense. Its either all stop, proceed ahead or proceed left to the bay road, but the NER ground signals I have to control shunting are either stop or go... so how do you know which way on a crossing your being routed?

 

 

By and large the the standalone ground signal is an " authority to proceed " and does not in the main indicate route. The driver has an understanding of the shunt destination , so it's not like he's expecting directions !!

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By and large the the standalone ground signal is an " authority to proceed " and does not in the main indicate route. The driver has an understanding of the shunt destination , so it's not like he's expecting directions !!

 

Add to that statement "As far as you can see the line to be clear and stop short of any obstruction" to be 100% correct.

 

To all budding signal designers out there, please note that a main signal arm in the 'off / proceed' position does indeed guarantee to the driver that the entire portion of line as far as the next main signal arm and that all points within the route are set correctly (with all Facing point locks correctly engaged in the case of moves involving passener trains). A shunt signal guarantees none of these things - particularly where it reads into yards where handpoints are employed.

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