Kings Cross New Approach Layout

[Chris116]

7 minutes ago, chris p bacon said:

 

Can you imagine a Deltic in Platform 0 

Be nice to see a Deltic in any platform! 

[ess1uk]

14 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I've seen signs reading "No Access to Electric Trains" in various places and lack of wiring is the obvious reason, but what's the problem with diesels in Platform 0 - the pollution?  If so, why would they be OK in the rest of the station?  Would specialist equipment like P/way trains also be banned?

 

I was a commuter into Kings Cross for about 30 years and thought I knew my way round but I get lost there these days.  In that time, the Widened Lines (York Road) connection has gone; Platform 11 came and went; platform 0 appeared; the power box has gone; the Indian Village has gone, replaced by  the fancy new concourse; Bridge 1 (the old footbridge) was taken down; the gasometers, milk dock & loco yards have gone; so now have the loco sidings by the former York Road platform.  The rolling stock has all changed.  Platforms changed names from Kings Cross Metropolitan to Midland City to Thameslink and have now closed altogether. The entrances to the tube & its booking hall have been rebuilt; the wooden escalators have gone; there's the new deep-level Thameslink station.  For a short while during various works, they uncovered an original sign to the "City & South London Electric Railway".  Even platform 9 3/4 has moved a few times ... then there's what they've done across the road at St Pancras.

the PSB building is still there, just not used for that anymore, control now being from York

[Ron Ron Ron]

25 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

......I was a commuter into Kings Cross for about 30 years and thought I knew my way round but I get lost there these days. .......

 

Someone could have said that about Waterloo around 1922/23.

 

...and what about London Bridge today?

A complete replacement with a totally brand new station.

 

It's the shifting sands of time and all that jazz.

 

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[chris p bacon]

1 hour ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

and all that jazz

[highpeakman]

I've been looking for a map/diagram  showing the new track layout at KC compared to the old. Haven't located one yet (That's probably just me), is there one please?

[Zomboid]

2 hours ago, chris p bacon said:

Yes. It's a confined space so exhaust is trapped, at least in the main train shed it is able to disperse.

 

Can you imagine a Deltic in Platform 0 

With the end of the HSTs and Hull Trains running 802s, the only trains that should be regularly burning diesel at KX will be the GC services, and they don't make up a very large proportion of the service. So it should have a generally pretty clean atmosphere in there now.

[woodenhead]

54 minutes ago, highpeakman said:

I've been looking for a map/diagram  showing the new track layout at KC compared to the old. Haven't located one yet (That's probably just me), is there one please?

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/kings-cross-remodelling-january-march-2020-infrastructure-discussion-aka-kings-uncrossed.158859/

[highpeakman]

5 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/kings-cross-remodelling-january-march-2020-infrastructure-discussion-aka-kings-uncrossed.158859/

Thank you very much for that. Just what i wanted.

[Ken.W]

2 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I've seen signs reading "No Access to Electric Trains" in various places and lack of wiring is the obvious reason, but what's the problem with diesels in Platform 0 - the pollution?  If so, why would they be OK in the rest of the station?  Would specialist equipment like P/way trains also be banned?

 

Yes, as Chris P Bacon has said, due to exhaust pollution. Remember, Pl.0 is in the former taxi drive, behind the wall from the main platforms, and below the east side offices, and so is a very confined space.

This isn't a new restriction, it's been the case ever since Pl.0 was opened. There was however an exception allowed for East Coast HSTs. The leading power car was to be shut down immediately on arrival, and not re-started till around 15 mins before departure. It applied to EC sets only as being full length sets the rear power car which was left running would be out in the open.

 

Even in the other platforms under the main train shed it was still normal practice due to noise and exhaust pollution, to shut down the leading power car on arrival, the rear power car being left running to maintain train supply and main air pressure.

[Michael Hodgson]

12 minutes ago, Ken.W said:

 

Yes, as Chris P Bacon has said, due to exhaust pollution. Remember, Pl.0 is in the former taxi drive, behind the wall from the main platforms, and below the east side offices, and so is a very confined space.

This isn't a new restriction, it's been the case ever since Pl.0 was opened.

They never worried about all the taxis and newspaper & mail vans - they were all diesel powered, though I suppose they must have been horse drawn when the station opened.

[Titan]

The existing platform 10 is being taken out of use and the current platform 11 is being renumbered to platform 10.  This now means there is a disused platform approx. 3/4 of the way between 9 and 10...

[woodenhead]

26 minutes ago, Titan said:

The existing platform 10 is being taken out of use and the current platform 11 is being renumbered to platform 10.  This now means there is a disused platform approx. 3/4 of the way between 9 and 10...

Which Tom Scott noted 7 years ago and that the planned work would make it a reality.

 

[phil-b259]

47 minutes ago, Titan said:

The existing platform 10 is being taken out of use and the current platform 11 is being renumbered to platform 10.  This now means there is a disused platform approx. 3/4 of the way between 9 and 10...

 

IIRC the island that formed platforms 10 & 11 was a tad narrow. It would have been sensible to widen it over the trackbed of the former platform 10 at the concourse end in much the same way as has been done at London Liverpool Street.

 

https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2021/04/21/liverpool-street-station-platforms-upgraded-for-crossrail/

[Foulounoux]

So in the original 1977 platform 11 was removed

Then later was brought back into use as demand necessitated its  use

So with the diversion to thameslink i guess demand is now at a point where they can take out of use

 

 

My concern is that the new layout is less flexible   Any work that takes a pair of tunnel lines oou will render a number of platforms also oou.  

 

Simplicity v Flexibility 

[woodenhead]

23 minutes ago, Foulounoux said:

So in the original 1977 platform 11 was removed

Then later was brought back into use as demand necessitated its  use

So with the diversion to thameslink i guess demand is now at a point where they can take out of use

 

 

My concern is that the new layout is less flexible   Any work that takes a pair of tunnel lines oou will render a number of platforms also oou.  

 

Simplicity v Flexibility 

There were platforms in the old 4 track design that couldn't access the other tunnel so it's not that much different.

 

And apart from planned works, how often has any tunnel been out of use for a long time due to problems?

[phil-b259]

33 minutes ago, Foulounoux said:

So in the original 1977 platform 11 was removed

Then later was brought back into use as demand necessitated its  use

So with the diversion to thameslink i guess demand is now at a point where they can take out of use.

Not so.

 

The old suburban platforms were limited to 8 carriages which is a tad impractical with 12 car formations (some of which being fixed formation 12 car Thameslink units needing to use Kings Cross.

 

Unfortunately there was insufficient space to retain platform 10 and simultaneously make platforms 9 &11 long enough for 12 car trains so 10 got removed.

 

The same fate befell platform 18 at Liverpool Street a month or so ago because keeping it prevented 11 car Crossrail trains from using 18 or 19 so 18 got removed to lengthen 19.

 

 

 

[phil-b259]

34 minutes ago, Foulounoux said:

 

My concern is that the new layout is less flexible   Any work that takes a pair of tunnel lines oou will render a number of platforms also oou.  

 

The old layout featured a large number of double slips  a piece of track work that has far more potential for faults than ordinary points and harder to maintain to boot.

 

Its all very well having ‘flexibility’ but if one of those slips fails and takes out half of Kings Cross throat due to flank locking then its not the panacea you think they are.

[Zomboid]

If a pair of tracks through the tunnels is unavailable then the limit to throughput probably isn't the number of platforms anyway, in both the old and new arrangements.

 

The traffic is presumably very different now compared to when the old layout was designed since a large proportion of the suburban service will be going to Moorgate or St Pancras instead of KX.

[Ron Ron Ron]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

.....The same fate befell platform 18 at Liverpool Street a month or so ago because keeping it prevented 11 car Crossrail trains from using 18 or 19 so 18 got removed to lengthen 19.

 

Shouldn't that be 9 car Crossrail trains?

 

Up until the Liverpool St. platforms were lengthened, TfL had to run the 345's in a temporary 7 car configuration. 

They're all 9 car trains  now.

 

 

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[stewartingram]

When the old taxi road was taken out and the new platform was installed, it was numbered Plat.0, due to constraints (expense was what I heard) of changing things in the signalling system to renumber all platforms 'across' to get logical numbering. It was also stated at the time,that the Plat.0 numbering was 'temporary' until the expected future resignalling took place - ie, it has now been done. However strangely, Plat.0 still remains - anyone know why?

 

Stewart

[Zomboid]

I don't know why, but if everyone is used to platform 0 (and 1-11) being where they are, then why change? The only thing that matters is that it's clear to everyone - if that's met, then you could call the platforms Roger, Jeff, Clive and Hugo.

 

It would be worth changing if things weren't in a logical order, but they are...

 

 

[Talltim]

50 minutes ago, stewartingram said:

When the old taxi road was taken out and the new platform was installed, it was numbered Plat.0, due to constraints (expense was what I heard) of changing things in the signalling system to renumber all platforms 'across' to get logical numbering. It was also stated at the time,that the Plat.0 numbering was 'temporary' until the expected future resignalling took place - ie, it has now been done. However strangely, Plat.0 still remains - anyone know why?

 

Stewart

 

[Nimbus]

2 hours ago, Zomboid said:

The traffic is presumably very different now compared to when the old layout was designed since a large proportion of the suburban service will be going to Moorgate or St Pancras instead of KX.

No, there are insignificant, insufficient even, numbers of suburban services off the GN onto Thameslink core. There are/were going to be some WGC starts, but otherwise through services serve Stevenage and Finsbury Park, anyone starting between those points requiring a change and spell of thumb-twiddling at Finsbury Park. At least that's the pattern evident around those times I've needed to plan journeys. I find it doubly irritating that the introduction of these reduced the frequency of the inner-suburban service from my two local stations!

 

The Nim. 

[Titan]

7 hours ago, woodenhead said:

Which Tom Scott noted 7 years ago and that the planned work would make it a reality.

 

 

Not exactly, he was surmising that all platforms would be renumbered, thus putting the existing homage to the fictional 9 3/4 in the right place.  However this won't happen as platforms 8 and 9 will stay where they are.  Instead there will now be a real albeit disused platform between 9 and 10, and thus the opportunity exists to make platform 9 3/4 a reality rather than imaginary.  Might even be possible to have some Maroon Mk1's parked in it and move the Harry Potter shop there, as well as moving the wall so it actually leads on to the platform... 

Edited June 7, 2021 by Titan

[DY444]

9 hours ago, Talltim said:

 

 

Hmm.  Signage fair enough however pretty much all the rest of it is going to be changed anyway due to the substantially changed layout.