Marches Line & 1936 WTT questions

[Fleetfoot Mike]

Living only a few minutes from the location being discussed, this makes for interesting reading. It had crossed my mind that a fictional N&W station influenced by Marsh Brook (the space seems strange!) like you're planning would make a nice 'railway in the landscape' layout, and that putting said station at Marsh Farm Junction would add interest with traffic to and from Much Wenlock joining or leaving the main line. If such a station had existed, perhaps Marsh Brook never would have. I've put this idea on the backburner for now as I could do with a location more suited to my joint WR/SR focused fleet, but I do hope to return to it one day.

 

Still somewhat torn, I have to admit There's also the 8'x1'6" plan for Longville... Decision time by Christmas. 

 

In an ideal world I've always wanted to do Craven Arms, but that's a retirement project once I get the workshop tenant and a wall removed, neither of which I really want to do right now (the tenant's nice, and the wall's holding his shelving up!) Besides, I want to practice on something smaller first

Edited November 26, 2018 by Fleetfoot Mike

[Fleetfoot Mike]

Answering one of my initial questions, I find this photo in the LNWR society catalog: http://www.lnwrs.org.uk/Photographs/PhotoDetails.php?Cltn=ECL&Pnum=183 - a Prince Of Wales obviously pulling a joint train

 

 

No. 25751 LNW cab roof, Ross pop safety valves, LMS lamp irons. Number on cab side, LMS on tender. Shed plate 4A - Shrewsbury. Standing in the station with a southbound train of four GWR bogie clerestories. Single pitch awning on left, ridge and furrow roof across tracks on right. GW cattle wagons in yard beyond railings on right. Craven Arms. R3F

 

A Prince of Wales would be quite fun to have in 00 - methinks that's a kit job

[Fleetfoot Mike]

As a slightly amused aside, despite being a GWR fan for the most part, I appear to be developing a considerable obsession for LNWR engines in LMS service. (Apart from anything else, they do seem to contribute a lot to the motive power of the lines through Craven Arms.)

 

I foresee quite a bit of kit-building in my future, somehow.

[Rising Standards]

Yes, I imagine you'll have to be pretty creative as I don't recall much RTR motive power in the photos I've seen from the time period you're after. LNWR afficionados would probably consider me a heretic, as personally I think the last of the LNWR classes looked the best they ever did in BR days with a second handle on the smokebox door instead of a wheel. That and the local connection has resulted in me picking up both of Bachmann's excellent LNWR efforts so far in that form.

 

If in a sudden change of heart you decide that both wall and tenant have to go and you'd like a play with Craven Arms, give me a shout; Craven Arms and District Model Railway Circle have 25-30 or so feet (I forget!) of under refurbishment but operational Craven Arms which I'm sure we could arrange for you to see if you're over this way some time.

[Fleetfoot Mike]

Yes, I imagine you'll have to be pretty creative as I don't recall much RTR motive power in the photos I've seen from the time period you're after. LNWR afficionados would probably consider me a heretic, as personally I think the last of the LNWR classes looked the best they ever did in BR days with a second handle on the smokebox door instead of a wheel. That and the local connection has resulted in me picking up both of Bachmann's excellent LNWR efforts so far in that form.

 

If in a sudden change of heart you decide that both wall and tenant have to go and you'd like a play with Craven Arms, give me a shout; Craven Arms and District Model Railway Circle have 25-30 or so feet (I forget!) of under refurbishment but operational Craven Arms which I'm sure we could arrange for you to see if you're over this way some time.

 

 

The OR Dean Goods (subject of much controversy in this parish) appears to have a rather handily spaced wheelbase for certain 0-6-0's, which might be interesting.

 

Re CADMRC, I just found you on FB the other day, and as I'm long overdue for a trip up the Mynd to blow the cobwebs away sometime next year, I'd love to take you up on that while I'm in the area 

Edited November 30, 2018 by Fleetfoot Mike

[Methuselah]

There seems to be quite a clutch of models of the S&H line;- I've seen models of Leominster, Ludlow, Craven Arms, Brassy is doing Berrinton & Eye, you are doing Marsh Brook, and myself and another chap on RM are doing Woofferton - his in 2mm, mine in 4mm. Coincidentally - we have also been bidding on the same items on eBay too..... I'm setting my infrastructure to the time of the Grouping, but I'll be happy to run groups of trains for any decade up to 1947.

 

As an aside - does anyone have any documentary evidence as to the colour scheme used for infrastructure on Joint GWR/LNWR lines in around 1922...?

 

S.

[Brassey]

 

As an aside - does anyone have any documentary evidence as to the colour scheme used for infrastructure on Joint GWR/LNWR lines in around 1922...?

 

S.

 

 

I doubt that any documentary evidence has survived.  Responsibility for certain elements switched between the two parties over time.  IIRC responsibility for the signalling and permanent way switched from the LNWR to the GWR around 1907.  I could have read or might have assumed that in return the LNWR took over buildings as a result.  Therefore buildings would have been repainted in the LNWR colour scheme of the time (if at all) probably up to the grouping.  The LNWR used "buff" on buildings which would be hard to discern from Stone 1 and 2 in B&W photography particularly after weathering.  The LNWR had a lot of wooden structures and their schemes pertained to that but those on the S&H are mainly brick or stone.

 

I have some photos of Ford Bridge in which the woodwork would appear to be finished in chocolate which the GWR is reputed to have used for a brief period.  Many years after closure under BR, colour photographs I have of Berrington & Eye show the booking hall still in GWR colour ways!  Whether the GWR repainted the LNWR signals is also questionable though it might have happened. They certainly replaced worn out gear so the Signalbox at B&E got a new GWR lever frame.  I am assuming that the box got a repaint too at about the same time but as I have no photograph of the box whatsoever I have no proof.

[Methuselah]

I doubt that any documentary evidence has survived.  Responsibility for certain elements switched between the two parties over time.  IIRC responsibility for the signalling and permanent way switched from the LNWR to the GWR around 1907.  I could have read or might have assumed that in return the LNWR took over buildings as a result.  Therefore buildings would have been repainted in the LNWR colour scheme of the time (if at all) probably up to the grouping.  The LNWR used "buff" on buildings which would be hard to discern from Stone 1 and 2 in B&W photography particularly after weathering.  The LNWR had a lot of wooden structures and their schemes pertained to that but those on the S&H are mainly brick or stone.

 

I have some photos of Ford Bridge in which the woodwork would appear to be finished in chocolate which the GWR is reputed to have used for a brief period.  Many years after closure under BR, colour photographs I have of Berrington & Eye show the booking hall still in GWR colour ways!  Whether the GWR repainted the LNWR signals is also questionable though it might have happened. They certainly replaced worn out gear so the Signalbox at B&E got a new GWR lever frame.  I am assuming that the box got a repaint too at about the same time but as I have no photograph of the box whatsoever I have no proof.

 

 

Thanks for that. I've just found an excellent website that goes into some detail about LMS and constituent company station colours;-

 

https://stationcolours.com/lms

 

Attached is an image of I think B&E signal cabin...? - It may in fact be one you posted, as I have so many saved photos I can never remember where they came from...!

 

S.

[Fleetfoot Mike]

Thanks for asking at least one of my followup questions

 

I was about to wonder both about building style/colour, as well as who was responsible for the signalling (although my interest is 10 years post-Grouping).

[Brassey]

Thanks for that. I've just found an excellent website that goes into some detail about LMS and constituent company station colours;-

 

https://stationcolours.com/lms

 

Attached is an image of I think B&E signal cabin...? - It may in fact be one you posted, as I have so many saved photos I can never remember where they came from...!

 

S.

 

Yes that is my photo; cropped from an early 1930's shot of B&E so in LMS days. The signal box window frames are predominantly white.  Can't make out much else.  (I do have a better shot of the next box on the line).  The tall signal is LNWR and would still appear to be in LNWR colour scheme with a brown base.

 

My interest is strictly pre-grouping so I know nothing of the LMS and have no interest in it due to how the Midland usurped the organisation to the detriment of the LNWR.

[Methuselah]

Thanks for asking at least one of my followup questions

 

I was about to wonder both about building style/colour, as well as who was responsible for the signalling (although my interest is 10 years post-Grouping).

 

     I have collected quite a few images that clearly show that the LNWR signalling was replaced by GWR, firstly by the square-section wooden-post type, then later by the tubular metal type.

     Many photos are, sadly, undated, however, the SRS do give specific dates that the frames in the boxes were changed - a good indicator I think. The SRS state with regard to Woofferton for example;-

 

'The joint LNWR/GWR type 1 box here had a replacement 75 lever HT3 frame installed in February 1914.'

 

     This seems to fit pretty well with the photos that I have, so, unless other data surfaces, the date the frames were changed can probably be used as a pretty good indicator as to when the signals themselves 'could' have been changed for GWR types - but that's not to say that some didn't survive for some time of course....

    The date of the image of Woofferton below is unknown for sure, but it looks pre-Great War, say 1900 - 1914, and the LNWR signalling can be seen. Most images show GWR signalling in place.

 

    On the whole, undated images of this line are very hard to fix in time, as so little changed. The changes to the signalling equipement are one of the few areas where some dating can be applied.

 

    In your scenario - it's pretty certain all the signals would have been GWR types, however, I think you are modelling pretty-much the exact period when the older wooden signals were starting to be replaced by the tubular metal types - but you will need to research that some more to be able to choose the correct type.

 

S.

[Brassey]

The Church Stretton model railway group built a layout of that station.  Here is their version of the old station building:

 

 

I would question the window colours as these appear to have been white:  B&E close up:

 

 

 

This is B&E in LMS days.  The running in board looks still to be in LNWR colours.  The Pagoda shelter could be in GWR Stone 1 and 2.  Interestingly on the stationcolours.com the writer states for LNWR Light Brown he would use Precision GWR dark stone! So essentially it is the same colour irrespective of which company.

 

[Fleetfoot Mike]

Just been furnished with a couple of example workings from the era. I think I need a bigger fiddle yard!

 

13.10 Crewe – Taunton

Engine
CK (GW) Liverpool – Bristol
BTK(GW) Liverpool – Bristol
BCK (GW) Shrewsbury (Birkenhead) – Taunton
BTK (LMS) Liverpool – Taunton
CK (LMS) Liverpool – Taunton
RC (GW/LM alt) Liverpool – Taunton
BTK (LMS) Liverpool – Taunton
BCK (GW) Manchester – Taunton
CK (GW) Manchester – P. Road (Pembrey)
BTK (GW) Manchester – P. Road (Pembrey)
BCK (GW) Birkenhead – P. Road (Pembrey)
BC (GW) Bristol - Taunton
T (GW) Bristol – Taunton

08.45 Plymouth – Crewe
All GWR stock
Engine
BCK Pontypool Rd (Cardiff) – Shrewsbury (Birkenhead)
BCK Plymouth – Shrewsbury (Birkenhead)
RC Weston SM – Shrewsbury
BCK Plymouth – Crewe (Glasgow)
BTK Plymouth - Crewe (Liverpool)
CK Plymouth - Crewe (Liverpool)
BTK Plymouth - Crewe (Liverpool)
BCK Newton A (Paignton) – Crewe (Manchester)
BTK Newton A (Paignton) - Bristol (Bradford)
CK Newton A (Paignton) - Bristol (Bradford)
BTK Newton A (Paignton) - Bristol (Bradford)

[Methuselah]

Do you have a date for this?

[Fleetfoot Mike]

Do you have a date for this?

 

Sadly, no: as I understand it 'early '30s', as that's what I was asking about.

[Methuselah]

Sadly, no: as I understand it 'early '30s', as that's what I was asking about.

 

Thanks. It'd be nice to see some scans of the documents, period stuff is always filled with juicy little details. :-) I've been searching for photographic evidence of train-formations, but there is almost nothing pre-war with a decent clear view of what's behind the loco, especially Pre-Grouping. Most images seem to be post-war. Maybe I've just been looking in all the wrong places..... :-/

[Brassey]

Just been furnished with a couple of example workings from the era. I think I need a bigger fiddle yard!

 

13.10 Crewe – Taunton

Engine

CK (GW) Liverpool – Bristol

BTK(GW) Liverpool – Bristol

BCK (GW) Shrewsbury (Birkenhead) – Taunton

BTK (LMS) Liverpool – Taunton

CK (LMS) Liverpool – Taunton

RC (GW/LM alt) Liverpool – Taunton

BTK (LMS) Liverpool – Taunton

BCK (GW) Manchester – Taunton

CK (GW) Manchester – P. Road (Pembrey)

BTK (GW) Manchester – P. Road (Pembrey)

BCK (GW) Birkenhead – P. Road (Pembrey)

BC (GW) Bristol - Taunton

T (GW) Bristol – Taunton

 

08.45 Plymouth – Crewe

All GWR stock

Engine

BCK Pontypool Rd (Cardiff) – Shrewsbury (Birkenhead)

BCK Plymouth – Shrewsbury (Birkenhead)

RC Weston SM – Shrewsbury

BCK Plymouth – Crewe (Glasgow)

BTK Plymouth - Crewe (Liverpool)

CK Plymouth - Crewe (Liverpool)

BTK Plymouth - Crewe (Liverpool)

BCK Newton A (Paignton) – Crewe (Manchester)

BTK Newton A (Paignton) - Bristol (Bradford)

CK Newton A (Paignton) - Bristol (Bradford)

BTK Newton A (Paignton) - Bristol (Bradford)

 

Note the dominance of break composites; something not easily obtainable in model form.  The Bradford section would probably have come off at Bristol so not run over he S&H

 

Thankfully the local trains, which outnumbered the expresses, were shorter

[Brassey]

Thanks. It'd be nice to see some scans of the documents, period stuff is always filled with juicy little details. :-) I've been searching for photographic evidence of train-formations, but there is almost nothing pre-war with a decent clear view of what's behind the loco, especially Pre-Grouping. Most images seem to be post-war. Maybe I've just been looking in all the wrong places..... :-/

 

The LNWR Society reprinted the Marshalling Circular for July, August and September 1910.  This includes the North to West expresses.  Copies sometimes come up on eBay

 

They may have later copies including the LMS period in their archives at the Study Centre which is open to the public at certain weekends throughout the year.  Some GWR records are also at Kew

Edited December 22, 2018 by Brassey

[Fleetfoot Mike]

The LNWR Society reprinted the Marshalling Circular for July, August and September 1910.  This includes the North to West expresses.  Copies sometimes come up on eBay

 

They may have later copies including the LMS period in their archives at the Study Centre which is open to the public at certain weekends throughout the year.  Some GWR records are also at Kew

 

I have a query in with Search Engine at the NRM - overdue a visit

[Methuselah]

I was trawling through some newly-acquired old books and spotted a few interesting references to the Marches Line. One which particularly caught my eye was in relation to Churchward Counties, and mixed-stock trains.

 

County 4-4-0, 3814, County of Chester, between Shrewsbury and Bristol. 

Typical formation;-

One GWR 6-wheeler.

One LNWR 8-wheeler.

One LNWR 6-wheeler.

Six GWR 8-wheelers.

One LNWR 8-wheeler.

Two GWR 8-wheelers.

 

Twelve vehicles in all with a tare of about 300 tons.

 

The Counties were sometimes double-headed with 2-4-0's such as No.240.

 

Amazing to think the Counties hauled eight to twelve vehicle trains.