Pre-Grouping Electric Trains!

[Kelly]

No, but there is another railway where they were - the Alderney Railway, following an incident where one of its engines ran off the end of the breakwater. Model Rail's version of the Alderney Railway's Molly sadly omits these...

 

 

Charles Tyson Yerkes of what would become the Underground had a great deal of experience working with urban railways and tramways in Chicago, so he not only brought American money but also a certain degree of expertise. He was also so shady that one of his board meetings in Chicago was interrupted by a lynch mob, but that's another story.

 

The big hindrance to electrification on the Inner Circle was the fact that the Metropolitan and District just couldn't see eye-to-eye on the subject, so much so that they didn't even bother to make the live rails the same height - when a District train went on to the Met's section for the first time, its collector shoes were knocked off. All very embarrassing, particularly given the fanfare surrounding electrification.

 

Hi involvement is also why traditionally the Underground uses American parlance, such as trucks for bogies and cars instead of carriages.

[Regularity]

Charles Tyson Yerkes of what would become the Underground had a great deal of experience working with urban railways and tramways in Chicago, so he not only brought American money but also a certain degree of expertise. He was also so shady that one of his board meetings in Chicago was interrupted by a lynch mob, but that's another story.

Sounds a bit like he was confused over the meaning of “underground”...

[pete_mcfarlane]

If you mean NER ES1, then there are drawings in Modern Locomotives Illustrated no 215, as are the other 2 NER electric locos. I would also assume NER society has drawings. I got all their carriage working drawings at York exhibition last year, but they can be bought online as well from the society.

 

This book has plans of the NER electrics: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Railway-Constructor-Planbook-Electric-Locomotives/dp/0711015015/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1519410757&sr=8-1&keywords=electric+planbook

 

I'm not sure how reliable the drawings are - there's a drawing of one of the Southern class 70s (20003) in BR blue with double arrows, which the real loco never carried. But it's probably a good place to start. 

[rockershovel]

Fascinating topic. I do like the EE1

[rockershovel]

Fascinating to learn that at least one pre-grouping electric locomotive survived into revenue service with BR

 

https://www.lner.info/locos/Electric/ef1eb1.php

 

Also that the LNER effectively designed the concept of the Bo-Bo diesel electric for heavy freight, as early as 1928

[PhilJ W]

1 hour ago, rockershovel said:

Fascinating to learn that at least one pre-grouping electric locomotive survived into revenue service with BR

 

https://www.lner.info/locos/Electric/ef1eb1.php

 

Also that the LNER effectively designed the concept of the Bo-Bo diesel electric for heavy freight, as early as 1928

Perhaps that explains why British railway companies were slow to adopt diesel power.

By July 1928, it was clear that there would never be sufficient traffic for all ten locomotives, and Gresley proposed that one locomotive should be rebuilt as a diesel-electric for the Peterborough to London coal traffic. The proposal kept the original bogies and motors, but included a new superstructure with end cabs. This would have housed a Beardmore 1000hp diesel engine running at 900rpm, and an English Electric generator with a 1500V output. An order was placed with English Electric Co., but the project was cancelled when Beardmore expressed doubts as to whether their engine would have been suitable.

After all Beardmore had provided the engines for the first main line diesel-electric locomotive but that operated in Canada with its generous loading gauge. A contemporary d-e locomotive of similar configuration,  the three BTH locomotives provided to the Ford motor company had a mere 150 HP each. It might be that the diesel engines delivering adequate power available at the time were just too big to fit within the restricted British loading gauge.

[Nearholmer]

Engine weight and size, along with generator and traction motor weight and size, were controlling factors way into the 1960s, possibly even the 70s/80s.
 

A 1000hp combo, light and compact enough to create a Bo-Bo didn’t come into being until the early 1950s, so Gresley’s thinking was c20 years ahead of industry capability.

 

The SR look at using a “milk van” power car from the LBSCR overhead stock to produce a DE at about the same date hit exactly the same problem: the achievable rating within weight and size limits was too low to be useful for even a goods (= slow) road locomotive.

 

 

[Tom Burnham]

The ex Ford BoBo loco of 1931 on the K&ESR has a W H Allen 550 bhp diesel engine. Similar design to American box-cab switchers of the period and I believe the oldest diesel-electric surviving in working order in the UK. When new it was tested on the LMS Tilbury line and I'd be very interested to see any reports from that.

[Nearholmer]

It’s famously very slow, so I hope they went to the seaside on a quiet day, and took a picnic.

 

Im out of date with whether it’s working again. It suffered a flashover in I think 2019 and money was being raised for a re-wind.

Edited November 16, 2021 by Nearholmer

[Tom Burnham]

Yes, I recall donating to the appeal. I certainly haven't seen it working since 2019. The springing was a bit temperamental at one time, resulting in some minor derailments on pointwork. All at slow speed as you suggest...

[PhilJ W]

3 hours ago, Tom Burnham said:

The ex Ford BoBo loco of 1931 on the K&ESR has a W H Allen 550 bhp diesel engine. Similar design to American box-cab switchers of the period and I believe the oldest diesel-electric surviving in working order in the UK. When new it was tested on the LMS Tilbury line and I'd be very interested to see any reports from that.

I read that it was 150 HP. Its possible though that figure was based on the RAC system for rating road vehicles which was based on piston area alone. Under that system an car rated at 8 HP would give about 30 bhp so that would account for the difference..

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

It’s famously very slow, so I hope they went to the seaside on a quiet day, and took a picnic.

 

Im out of date with whether it’s working again. It suffered a flashover in I think 2019 and money was being raised for a re-wind.

Its quite a big job as I understand it involves removal of the power unit and generator. It was reputedly capable of 35 mph. It would be interesting to find any pics of it on the LT&S.

Edited November 16, 2021 by PhilJ W

[PhilJ W]

Here is a pic of one of the Ford/BTH box cabs on a main line. It could be LT&S.

On 06/05/2017 at 13:47, sej said:

And here's a photo with the single headlight.

 

Cheers

Simon

 

[Tom Burnham]

Very likely. Looks like an official photo.

[PhilJ W]

They were built in the North West so I was wondering if they travelled to Dagenham under their own power or were hauled 'dead'.