Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Phil,

 

A factor, but by no means a decisive one. The SR needed to electrify the SE suburban as fast as it could, and had to choose quickly between at least three, possibly four live options. The OHLE was what killed the HV ac and dc options, because it took so much longer to string up the knitting than to slap down CR. Maybe a seasoning of ‘not thought of here’ too, in that the deciding minds were LSWR men, but very h”good ones indeed, in the form of Walker and his electrical engineer jones(?).

 

The SE suburban was bleeding money, so speed was seriously important.

 

Kevin

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Would there also be a matter of the loading gauge as well?  O/H wire often requires bridges to be raised and tunnel floors lowered to give sufficient clearance, whilst 3rd rail can usually be accommodated without major works (also helping with the speed of installation issue).  I believe the SECR was somewhat restricted in clearances.  The SR quite naturally wanted a unified system, so 3rd rail it was.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's a large part of why it took so long. Putting in the foundations for the masts/gantries, and erecting them wasn't quick either. And, it couldn't be done in short overnight bursts, which meant that it interfered with traffic (even if pictures do seem to show guys working on the OHL like a bunch of tightrope walkers, while steam trains chugged-by inches away).

 

The SR report was quite withering, pointing out that the LBSCR had electrified something like 18 miles in the same time it took the LSWR to electrify something like 60. It was a bit of a daft comparison, not normalised for different route conditions or circumstances, but the overall point was sound.

 

One of the big counter-points in favour of HV ac at the time was that it didn't need staffed, expensive to maintain, rotary-converter substations every few miles, which 660V dc did. Hence, it was good for long distances, like Getting to the seaside, which is what the LBSCR always intended.

 

That advantage was largely wiped-out by three technologies That were emerging in the mid-1920s, and we're fully exploited for the Brighton scheme: telecontrol (what we would now call SCADA), decent-sized mercury-arc rectifiers, and reliable outdoor HV ac switchgear. I'm fairly sure that it was seeing those coming that convinced the SR not only to cease extending the OHLE, but to junk the whole system.

 

The ever-vacillating national committee on railway electrification voltages eventually came down in favour of 1.5kV dc OHLE, because that suited British manufacturing industry, which was a bit behind the curve, but the SR 'waved two fingers' at the committee anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Would there also be a matter of the loading gauge as well?  O/H wire often requires bridges to be raised and tunnel floors lowered to give sufficient clearance, whilst 3rd rail can usually be accommodated without major works (also helping with the speed of installation issue).  I believe the SECR was somewhat restricted in clearances.  The SR quite naturally wanted a unified system, so 3rd rail it was.

 

The ex-SER part of the SECR was restricted in width: 8'6" max width of stock, 8' preferred. LBSC O/H electric stock would not have fitted. The SECR had fairly normal height clearance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They look good in tin.

 

Ace trains 0 Gauge, inspired by c1912 Carette in Gauge 1, courtesy of Mr Holmes.

 

 

Yes, many of the electric trains look well in tinplate, more so than hauled stock. I wonder why.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The ex-SER part of the SECR was restricted in width: 8'6" max width of stock, 8' preferred. LBSC O/H electric stock would not have fitted. The SECR had fairly normal height clearance.

 

Yes, I seem to recall that the LBSC stock was 9' 6" wide, which is wider than even the normal loading gauge allows. The converted stock (2 SL for South London and 2 WIM for Wimbledon routes) was restricted to particular routes.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Still haven't found any drawings for the NER Electric locos.

 

Any suggestions?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Try hunting in The Engineer, I think all of the NER electrics are covered. I've certainly got GAs and schematics in old electrical textbooks.

 

These first little ones were a standard GE catalogue design that was also sold in the USA, France, and a few other places.

post-26817-0-18284400-1516720648.jpg

Edited by Nearholmer
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And No.NER 13 has a small book about it - and the proposed main line electrification. I used to have a copy, but it might have wandered.

 

Chris H

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Try hunting in The Engineer, I think all of the NER electrics are covered. I've certainly got GAs and schematics in old electrical textbooks.

 

These first little ones were a standard GE catalogue design that was also sold in the USA, France, and a few other places.

BR electric locomotives in 4mm scale* by R.S. Carter has drawings of the NE steeple cab locomotives. *Model Railway Constructor Planbook 3 published by Ian Allen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Peter Crichton has a model of Holcombe Brook and Tottington in post-1917 state after the AC overhead was changed to 1200V DC third rail - I wonder if he ever runs it pre-grouping...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And No.NER 13 has a small book about it - and the proposed main line electrification. I used to have a copy, but it might have wandered.

 

Chris H

The Railway that never was is the book I think, I have just gone to look for my copy but can’t find it...

And No.NER 13 has a small book about it - and the proposed main line electrification. I used to have a copy, but it might have wandered.

 

Chris H

The Railway that never was is the book I think, I have just gone to look for my copy but can’t find it...
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, I seem to recall that the LBSC stock was 9' 6" wide, which is wider than even the normal loading gauge allows. The converted stock (2 SL for South London and 2 WIM for Wimbledon routes) was restricted to particular routes.

 

 

Only the initial stock for the South London Line was extra wide. When these three coach sets were changed to two coach units this was done by removing the first class carriages and putting them to mainline use, subsequently converted to the 2 Wim sets, and pairing each of the motor coaches with a new trailer, which was built to the normal narrower width, pre dating the Tadpole units by fifty years. All other electric stock was built to normal dimensions, the SL motor coaches being converted later into the 2SL units.

 

 

Still haven't found any drawings for the NER Electric locos.

 

Any suggestions?

I would have thought that Oakwood Press Locomotion Papers 167 would be a useful acquisition. In spite of its cryptic title "The Electric Locomotives of the North Eastern Railway" it surprisingly contains drawings for each of the three main types as well as over forty photographs! (Although the NERA book on locos has a better drawing of No 13) Reading it again, I realised I had forgotten that there was a fourth type of electric loco - built using an old steam loco tender chassis. This was so secretive that there are no known photos, and little evidence it actually existed, but would make an interesting talking point. The book also has fairly detailed drawings of a number of different proposed express locos of different wheel arrangements, which would all making challenging projects for 3D modelling, particularly as it would be acceptable to adjust wheelbases and fittings to suit easily available RTR, as no one can complain they are wrong.
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hav

 

The Railway that never was is the book I think, I have just gone to look for my copy but can’t find it...
The Railway that never was is the book I think, I have just gone to look for my copy but can’t find it...

 

I have that somewhere too, and Ken Hoole's books.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As mentioned above, I am designing a range of 3D printed models, and have already done quite a few pre-grouping Electric units. Trying to keep everyone happy, so move around regions/railways.

Finding decent info, and photos is most difficult part. The LNWR would produce plans, and then it is not certain if they were changed, before and after producrion. Measurements quoted in some sources are sometimes incorrect(including official BR documentation).

I mention this because when I started on the LNWR Oerlikon, I found that one coach was shorter than the other two. There were also enough drawings and photos to do the design, but today I found one photo of an early production one with different number of motor side vents(no, it wasn't a Siemens unit).

I am currently working on a design for the Siemens version. I have copies of original drawings, but there are virtually no photos showing them in pre-grouping days, and from what I can make out they match the plans. However when they moved north, and were modified to overhead AC ,and there are plenty of photos, there are differences other than the obvious changes to the motor coach, such as more roof vents, and no rain strips. As to when these changes were done I am not sure. Some modifications might have been done prior to grouping.

 

With respect to engineering magazines of the time, care has to be taken with respect to drawings. Sometimes they match the real train, sometimes not.

 

As for trams, then they are different, and much of the railway electrication was done to compete with the newly electrified trams. This was also a time of competion between AC and DC supply, rsulting in the railways experimenting with both. Westinghouse were right in there, and the Mersey Railway electrication was their baby, with the trains based on American design. The NER followed similar ideas with design. I am not anti trams, but tend to catatogue them differently. I suppose those tramways actually owned and run by the railways could be included.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

RdE

 

All of the post-1900 dc schemes in GB were, to a lesser or greater extent ‘American’, although not in the wholesale sense of the Mersey. Railway. British industry had not kept up very well, so couldn’t offer the latest thing in several respects, added to which British Westinghouse and British Thompson-Houston (General Electric) priced very aggressively as a way of securing the market for their new factories. The fact that the Tube railways had to be rescued with American money made for a very neat relationship.

 

Siemens did pretty badly in the British traction market post-1900, possibly having made a tactical withdrawal in the short period when their interests owned GE; three-phase electrification from Ganz fell at the starting line; so, only the MR and LBSCR potentially looking to European suppliers, although Westinghouse was well-up in single phase traction too.

 

Kevin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Still haven't found any drawings for the NER Electric locos.

 

Any suggestions?

There was an S scale drawing of the steeple cab in 'Model Railways' in the mid-1970s (1975 or 76 IIRC) and also a rather basic Skinley print, which as luck would have it, I gave away at the weekend. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you mean NER ES1, then there are drawings in Modern Locomotives Illustrated no 215, as are the other 2 NER electric locos. I would also assume NER society has drawings. I got all their carriage working drawings at York exhibition last year, but they can be bought online as well from the society.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ah well, I'll keep looking. Thanks for the heads-up with the Skinley though! It's better than nothing...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Oh, to see an EE1 at the head of the Flying Scotsman...

............ but don't you think sticking Pullman gangways on it - to permit non-stop operation - might spoil its looks a little ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ah well, I'll keep looking. Thanks for the heads-up with the Skinley though! It's better than nothing...

You could find accurate drawings of all the NER electric locos (apart from the mythical 0-6-0) in our kits....

Judith and Michael Edge

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Michael, but unfortunately I can't justify the cost of an etched kit at grest risk of wrecking it, and even less so just for a drawing!

 

I have so far managed to bash together a 7mmNG society kit for a slate wagon, but as of yet I have not progressed with building etched kits, simply because it's cheaper for me to knock up some CAD and get a 3D print done.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I suppose there's not many electric railways where lifebelts would be mandatory safety equipment!

 

No, but there is another railway where they were - the Alderney Railway, following an incident where one of its engines ran off the end of the breakwater. Model Rail's version of the Alderney Railway's Molly sadly omits these...

 

RdE

 

All of the post-1900 dc schemes in GB were, to a lesser or greater extent ‘American’, although not in the wholesale sense of the Mersey. Railway. British industry had not kept up very well, so couldn’t offer the latest thing in several respects, added to which British Westinghouse and British Thompson-Houston (General Electric) priced very aggressively as a way of securing the market for their new factories. The fact that the Tube railways had to be rescued with American money made for a very neat relationship.

 

Siemens did pretty badly in the British traction market post-1900, possibly having made a tactical withdrawal in the short period when their interests owned GE; three-phase electrification from Ganz fell at the starting line; so, only the MR and LBSCR potentially looking to European suppliers, although Westinghouse was well-up in single phase traction too.

 

Kevin

 

Charles Tyson Yerkes of what would become the Underground had a great deal of experience working with urban railways and tramways in Chicago, so he not only brought American money but also a certain degree of expertise. He was also so shady that one of his board meetings in Chicago was interrupted by a lynch mob, but that's another story.

 

The big hindrance to electrification on the Inner Circle was the fact that the Metropolitan and District just couldn't see eye-to-eye on the subject, so much so that they didn't even bother to make the live rails the same height - when a District train went on to the Met's section for the first time, its collector shoes were knocked off. All very embarrassing, particularly given the fanfare surrounding electrification.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Indeed, and you are talking about after the ‘peace’, where they agreed to use a conductor rail, d.c. system. Before that, they had been at even deeper odds, over exactly which system to choose, with the Met favouring, for good reasons, a 3-phase OHLE option.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, if Volk's Electric is included, I will put in a mention of the Hythe Pier Railway, electrified in 1922  (3rd rail 250V DC) so just pre-grouping. Still going, doing what it has always done, carrying passengers up and down the pier to connect to the ferry.

Since Pier Railways get a mention, how about one of the earliest to be electrified and become one of the busiest, with up to 4 trains running in summer.

 

The Southend Pier Railway, with an electric train running on it from 1889. As my home town, I well remember the 1949 stock, in the piers heyday.

 

http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/spr.html

 

In recent decades, the place has struggled, not helped by a string of fires on the pier and even attacks by ships!

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.