RTR North Eastern Railway Locomotives - A discussion.

[JaymzHatstand]

A J21 would be nice but.....

 

 

Having a J21 kit on my workbench, Im guessing you're hinting atvthe myriad of detail variations the class had. Trying to find one with the right combination of bits, shedded in the right place for my tastes was a task and a half (and I'm still not sure I'm 100% right!)

 

I'm sure if some of the variations are left out of the equation, but thought about enough at design so that enterprising modellers can use the RTR version as a conversion base, that a very nice model could be produced.

 

Obviously that would leave it open to the 'they aren't doing the version I want' brigade, but that is something to take into account at the design phase and try to minimise.

 

The standards of RTR livery application now is superb and really lends itself to the ornate pre-grouping colour schemes, oh to have some Saxony Green, factory painted locos in my fleet! I'm just not brave enough to try it myself, yet!

 

Cheers

 

J

[Edwardian]

Dome cover and shape aren't difficult to do- the dome is a separate part.  There are also two chimney heights and a variation of whistle position.

 

I did say you would need two boilers- the early ones (diagram 57) not only had the dome 1'1" further forward but I'm not sure if these also had different washout plugs.  There were boiler changes from diagram 57 to 57A and back again, and the last diagram 57 boiler ran until 1958.

 

Most expensive is the need for two boilers if you are to cover right back to 1906.  All the other details are effectively slides (cab front) or detail mouldings (domes, chimneys etc)

 

There were 35 superheated J27s out of 115 plus 50 J26s.   The J26 became identical with the J27 between 1910 and 1925 except for 28 that retained their round cab spectacles.  I would be tempted to ignore the superheated locos  as from 1943 onwards all but six reverted to saturated, 

 

I was only thinking of J26 and J27 in the first instance.  The J25 is 11" shorter in the frame than J26, and the J24 is much smaller again.  A J21 would be nice but.....

 

I model in OO and in N and am fortunate to have Union Mills J25, J26 and J27 (and D20) in N to a passable standard, though all three need work doiung to their tenders.

 

All the best

Les

 

This sums up the difficulty for me.

 

In a world where going "right back to 1906" is a daring and exotic undertaking in the world of RTR, even if NER releases are made, they are unlikely to provide more than the basis for extensive bodgery!

 

Go back as far as 1906?!?  Goodness, you won't tempt me further forward than 1904; I prefer my goods engines green!

 

I will probably make a start by way of W Worsdell livery, but, really, TW's more opulent livery would be better!

 

Mind you, I'd be wanting plenty of Fletcher and Bouch motive power!

 

There is so much that the late steam-age modeller misses out on!

[Jol Wilkinson]

To what extent would RTR versions of classes already available as kits affect the viability of the kit manufacturers? I'm not going to argue for protectionism!

1. Will RTR mostly be bought by people who would not consider attempting an etched/whitemetal kit?

2. Will kit-builders ignore RTR because what they enjoy doing is building kits?

3. Will the increase in interest in modelling the NER (Railway and/or Region!) as a result of the availability of RTR in fact boost kit sales?

Discuss...

 

 

IMO what you need is some basic RTR to get a layout started, then plenty of decent kits for the rarer, area specific items to allow development of the concept, whatever it is. RTR always draws people in, whether they want to move on to actually modelling ie building things/detailing things, or not. Either way, we need to get people interested and actively making layouts, and in that respect RTR is always the springboard.

 

My experience, from assisting a Small Supplier with a fairly wide range of of Pre-group etched locos and carriages, is that the introduction of a RTR model has virtually no effect in drawing modellers into building additional complementary models from kits. The Bachmann 2-4-2T prompted a small and temporary interest in L&Y coach kits, while the LNWR Coal Tank had no observable effect on sales of LNWR coach kits (perhaps the more complex LNWR Carriage livery was a deterrent).

 

This topic has shown that there is considerable interest in NER locos, though their life spans. Yet, despite the wide range of kits available from several different suppliers through the years, there seems to be little enthusiasm to for building your own  NER (or LNER) models. In the past those with a strong interest in pre-group railways either recognised that they would have to make their own models (or commission a professional to do it for them).

 

While the well reasoned arguments put forward for more NER models may have some influence on the RTR manufacturers future plans, I think that the likelihood of a significant range of NER models becoming available a ten year span is very limited We have a huge back catalogue of different prototypes for different companies. If anything Bachmann, Hornby and the others will produce something from different geographic areas to get the greatest spread of interest. Add to that the apparent preference for manufacturing models of preserved locos (making 3D scanning possible and reducing the amount of research and development) and it would seem that some of the prototypes on wish lists are unlikely to see the light of day as a model. 

[micklner]

. If anything Bachmann, Hornby and the others will produce something from different geographic areas to get the greatest spread of interest. Add to that the apparent preference for manufacturing models of preserved locos (making 3D scanning possible and reducing the amount of research and development) and it would seem that some of the prototypes on wish lists are unlikely to see the light of day as a model. 

 

We are lucky that there are a few NER Locos surviving if above paragraph is correct in the future. Shame there are no B16 and variants surviving . 

[Compound2632]

My experience, from assisting a Small Supplier with a fairly wide range of of Pre-group etched locos and carriages, is that the introduction of a RTR model has virtually no effect in drawing modellers into building additional complementary models from kits. The Bachmann 2-4-2T prompted a small and temporary interest in L&Y coach kits, while the LNWR Coal Tank had no observable effect on sales of LNWR coach kits (perhaps the more complex LNWR Carriage livery was a deterrent).

 

This topic has shown that there is considerable interest in NER locos, though their life spans. Yet, despite the wide range of kits available from several different suppliers through the years, there seems to be little enthusiasm to for building your own  NER (or LNER) models. In the past those with a strong interest in pre-group railways either recognised that they would have to make their own models (or commission a professional to do it for them).

 

While the well reasoned arguments put forward for more NER models may have some influence on the RTR manufacturers future plans, I think that the likelihood of a significant range of NER models becoming available a ten year span is very limited We have a huge back catalogue of different prototypes for different companies. If anything Bachmann, Hornby and the others will produce something from different geographic areas to get the greatest spread of interest. Add to that the apparent preference for manufacturing models of preserved locos (making 3D scanning possible and reducing the amount of research and development) and it would seem that some of the prototypes on wish lists are unlikely to see the light of day as a model. 

 

Jol, as I suspected, you would appear to think the answers to my questions are yes, yes, and no. It's moderately encouraging to think that availability of RTR will have no detrimental effect on kit manufactures, if disappointing to think it will have no positive effect.

 

The forthcoming Bachmann Midland 0-4-4T is an interesting exception to the "preserved example available to scan" rule; in this case it would seem that the existence of the very detailed monograph by Hunt et al. has been a key factor. 

[Jol Wilkinson]

Jol, as I suspected, you would appear to think the answers to my questions are yes, yes, and no. It's moderately encouraging to think that availability of RTR will have no detrimental effect on kit manufactures, if disappointing to think it will have no positive effect.

 

The forthcoming Bachmann Midland 0-4-4T is an interesting exception to the "preserved example available to scan" rule; in this case it would seem that the existence of the very detailed monograph by Hunt et al. has been a key factor. 

 

 Whether it will increase sales of MR coach kits will be of interest. The Ratio MR suburban kits are probably the best candidates, cheap, plastic and simple MR livery. I can't see much improvement for sales of etched kits (although there aren't that many AFAIK).

[Compound2632]

 Whether it will increase sales of MR coach kits will be of interest. The Ratio MR suburban kits are probably the best candidates, cheap, plastic and simple MR livery. I can't see much improvement for sales of etched kits (although there aren't that many AFAIK).

 

In my case, the cart is before the horse - I have one on pre-order to go with the Ratio suburbans I built 30 years ago!

 

Wizard/51L have a number of etched kits for Clayton arc-roofed carriages, including those converted c. 1910 for motor train operation with the 0-4-4T sandwiched in the middle. On the other hand, it's not a motor-fitted engine Bachmann are currently doing.

[R Marshall]

We are lucky that there are a few NER Locos surviving if above paragraph is correct in the future. Shame there are no B16 and variants surviving . 

 

There are 13 at the last count, with a new build well advanced to make the lucky number!

 

Albeit, 2 of the same class and 1 electric. We're luckier than (say) the Glasgow and South Western - the Manson 4-6-0s in particular were good looking locomotives

 

I agree that the S3 (B16) is a big miss, so too the A (F8), Z Atlantic (C7), the R (D20) and the W (A6 - much more attractive than the A8s, in my opinion).

 

Regards,

 

Roy

[The Black Hat]

My experience, from assisting a Small Supplier with a fairly wide range of of Pre-group etched locos and carriages, is that the introduction of a RTR model has virtually no effect in drawing modellers into building additional complementary models from kits. The Bachmann 2-4-2T prompted a small and temporary interest in L&Y coach kits, while the LNWR Coal Tank had no observable effect on sales of LNWR coach kits (perhaps the more complex LNWR Carriage livery was a deterrent).

 

This topic has shown that there is considerable interest in NER locos, though their life spans. Yet, despite the wide range of kits available from several different suppliers through the years, there seems to be little enthusiasm to for building your own  NER (or LNER) models. In the past those with a strong interest in pre-group railways either recognised that they would have to make their own models (or commission a professional to do it for them).

 

While the well reasoned arguments put forward for more NER models may have some influence on the RTR manufacturers future plans, I think that the likelihood of a significant range of NER models becoming available a ten year span is very limited We have a huge back catalogue of different prototypes for different companies. If anything Bachmann, Hornby and the others will produce something from different geographic areas to get the greatest spread of interest. Add to that the apparent preference for manufacturing models of preserved locos (making 3D scanning possible and reducing the amount of research and development) and it would seem that some of the prototypes on wish lists are unlikely to see the light of day as a model. 

 

Model companies used to make one engine for an area, and then another for a different area the next year, etc years ago but that has not been the case for the last few years. When they did this, they would make and announce a grouping engine or BR standard, that would satisfy a whole region, when these were done they then have announced and made engines that can support their range, by selecting types from areas they think would be popular, or by making the range for an area modellers can then buy the engines and model an areas as its possible.

 

​For years I have known people up north modelling down south - not through choice, but because the range of engines to do it was available. Hornby have always been more Southern region centric, but know Bachmann have rushed to fill the gaps and corner areas of the market, such as slam door 3rd rail units (even if Hornby do make some too after Bachmann started here). I have never thought that areas of the Great Central, or some areas of the midland scene were too popular, and wish list polls would seem to back me up. The GC has never polled as well, and the Midland vote has been decimated in the last few years as Bachmann have made many engines for here. It does point to the idea that companies will release engines and modellers will still buy them even if not first choice, but because an area can be modelled and the range is there to do it.

 

However, the idea could work just as well if the few NE designed engines were made that lasted to the end of steam. The main range as I have said is there already and just needs a few releases such as J21/25, J27, G5, B16. That's just four and the region is more or less done and sorted. That's why I am surprised it actually hasn't been done already...

[phil gollin]

.

 

........ Hornby have always been more Southern region centric, ....

 

.

 

This is your myth that has been demonstrated to be untrue.

 

Maybe they have done a slightly larger proportion in the last 10 to 15 years, but that is PRESUMABLY because they sell (and partly because there have been so many classes available as so few had been modelled in the past).

 

.

[DougN]

I know this might take a little wind form Jol's sails, the dynamometer car by Rails and Rapido is based on the standard NER clerestory so the possibility of a release of the standard run of these coachs with 90% of the research done along with a fair %age of the mounding could produce a lovely run of these coaches.

[Jol Wilkinson]

I know this might take a little wind form Jol's sails, the dynamometer car by Rails and Rapido is based on the standard NER clerestory so the possibility of a release of the standard run of these coachs with 90% of the research done along with a fair %age of the mounding could produce a lovely run of these coaches.

 

Doug,

 

so why haven't they done that?

 

Jol

[micklner]

Doug,

 

so why haven't they done that?

 

Jol

 

 

 Perhaps?

 

They haven't sold enough of the Dyno car to risk the cost on pre orders, and are waiting to see if they sell all of them when available.

 

Or they don't want too, or haven't even thought of selling NER Coaches. 

 

Time will tell, it seems like good idea they haven't  got much competition form anyone else, there aren't even kits around anymore , unless D&S do a rerun. Not that everybody makes kits or wants kits  either. 

[Dick Turpin]

I know this might take a little wind form Jol's sails, the dynamometer car by Rails and Rapido is based on the standard NER clerestory so the possibility of a release of the standard run of these coachs with 90% of the research done along with a fair %age of the mounding could produce a lovely run of these coaches.

 

The clerestories were very distinctive of North Eastern stock, and were also cascaded into Great Eastern territory, and due to that area's status as a RTR hotspot, anything's possible, so who knows? 

[Compound2632]

But there seems to be a rule with RTR that anything which is unique or a rarity attracts more attention and sells much better than the common-or-garden.

[Dick Turpin]

But there seems to be a rule with RTR that anything which is unique or a rarity attracts more attention and sells much better than the common-or-garden.

 

Well that settles it then, a 4CC is the clear winner!  Woo hoo, bring it on.  

[R Marshall]

Well that settles it then, a 4CC is the clear winner!  Woo hoo, bring it on.  

 

 

 I agree - I want one in any gauge, but in NER livery, please!

[DougN]

Jol, yes it is quite topic. As the Dynomometer car has yet to hit the shop, I would suggest that one or both companies will not yet have seen the possibility of the larger market along with the investment. Lets just do one coach first then look at the possibilities. There is also the way that Bachmann do things as commissions and then do a run 3 years later as a standard issue.I admit I do not know anything about Rapido at all so the later may be a possibility or may be not!

 

If a run was to be made of these coachs I for one would be placing an order depending on a couple of things one being the bank account health as at the current 100quid for the Dyno is a little outside the pocket money for a rake at the moment. But one or even 2 yes if the price came down to a reasonable level of say 60quid I could (Maybe on pain of death) get 3 in one go with more in the future! 

[The Black Hat]

.

 

This is your myth that has been demonstrated to be untrue.

 

Maybe they have done a slightly larger proportion in the last 10 to 15 years, but that is PRESUMABLY because they sell (and partly because there have been so many classes available as so few had been modelled in the past).

 

.

 

Here we go... My myth? Lets see just how it can be demonstrated.

 

Taking the Rebuilt Merchant Navy as a starting point, Hornby have led the charge into the Southern region. However, first we need to think why this engine produced in 2000 should be seen as the starting point for comparisons.

 

Its release was a step change in both production standards and detail. It marked a new era where super detailed engines could be done at a good price. It also showed up the flaws in older models that were made from previous methods. It consigned a load of older models to a role as being good for those with massive collections running on analogue and happy to have these engines working still, or moved down to a different range aimed at where detail and price matched accordingly - which led to the birth of Railroad. This means that with this engine and the subsequent digital revolution which swept the hobby, the state was almost wiped clean. Its also no surprise that most of the previous good selling engines from the time before this, have all been retooled and upgraded to digital. Yet, this doesn't mean that every engine from before 2000 should be discounted. Some are able to match the standard of what has been made since, the Terrier, for example, even if this too could do with being retooled to make digital operation far easier - and again the calls for this to be done are quite popular.

 

Another reason to consider why this time is the best place to start a new benchmark for comparisons is that it marked the move of production to overseas. This has swelled the range of engines produced by manufacturers. Instead of the catalogue focusing on certain engines and types - i.e. big express engines or group standard designs from all the big four - it marked a means to develop a range of releases aimed at complimenting each other. Also, it gave chance to develop more engines for different periods, again complimenting their overall range, and moving some areas in the current scene away from the train set releases to also join the super detailed model ranges.

 

So comparisons ought to kick off from the release of the rebuilt Merchant Navy, which ironically even this is now being requested for a retool, showing how far standards have risen. When this is considered the release of Southern steam engines is quite large, but not actually the largest. The Eastern and Western region take the lead when it comes to steam engine releases done so far, although the reason for this is the link to all those Western region tank designs that have been produced to cater for the 'branch line terminus' hangover. The Eastern lead is very disingenuous as it lumps together Group Standard releases for the LNE, but then also catches Great Eastern and Great Central releases, with the latter released by Bachmann clearly done to also hit those modelling midland region areas when engines from GC areas wandered over towards the west midlands.

 

Southern regions fans would then be thinking that they are in the clear! The myth must be true. Wrong! In fact Southern steam releases only fall behind the Eastern and Western in terms of just two engines and polling data from the last few years has put other Southern engines to the forefront. Given that the companies tend to select engines on lists from a few years ago as their next choice, it then takes time to get them made and released. So theres a lag between poll and the market. As a result, I expect that someone, maybe not Hornby, but someone will produce the U-class or Q-class engines. That would easily close the gap.

 

Your myth gets busted when you consider who has made what, and to my count Hornby have made 14 of the 24 Southern steam releases since 2000, which is over 50%. Also consider that so far, only steam releases have been mentioned – there’s more bad news to follow.

 

The other way in which the gap has been closed in the way in which the market has changed now that magazines, shops and start up companies have cherry picked small tank designs to add to the range of Southern engines released. This has quickly closed the gap on the other two regions and massively overtaken those that are going without, which is mainly the Scottish and North Eastern regions.

 

The issue with these last two is that they form their own spheres of influence, although Scotland can get some areas like Glasgow modelled well given both many Midland and Eastern grouping engines have been done, it again is rather unfair to group these releases together as purely all Scottish when you pull the count from two of the big four. Likewise North Eastern region engines also can count all the big four express engine types, the V2 plus other grouping designs, but it still shows that these two areas are falling way behind and would only need a few releases to balance the range and offer them the chance to catch up.

 

When you consider BR standards, Southern again does rather well. Here the number of engines made matches the average total of those that could be seen in the region, but the region gets one, the 5MT that was pretty much allocated to just that region. Others see their classes shared against other regions, which slants the totals across this range.

 

However, slots in production are scarce when you consider all the needs and choices placed upon companies – even with the growth in ranges made and the number of engines produced. The question then is – where are all the slots taken up? While some obviously have gone into the diesel and unit scene these are wanted by many as it sees a great many of the older types modelled that cater for the all-important transition period. The issue here is that an engine like a class 37 can operate across many areas. It sees the engine running in both North Eastern, Scottish, Eastern, Midland and Western regions. That’s a design that hits a lot of demand as the release is general across most of the country and thus can be seen alongside all the transition period engines from 4 different areas. Engines like class 47 are the same. You get some diesels which are more geographically specific such as the Class 55 Deltic, or the Western regions diesel hydraulic sets, but these don’t redress the massively general trend that when you consider diesel engines very few are made for any specific area. Units start to get a little specific, with some for the Western region again standing out, but, again these could be seen elsewhere, such as areas of the midlands and for these western units, they match in number those that were produced for elsewhere almost evenly.

 

The way that results get skewed and how the Southern region asserts its dominance is the amount of units and electrics produced for the 3^rd rail system. While its fair that some would need to be made to cater for the area and that these would obviously be more specific to the region, the number of units alone doubles that which are offered for other regions, and by my count there are 10 made and there are two electric/ED engines, the class 71 and 73 both made for the Southern region too and both made by Hornby. The issue is that all this 3^rd rail stock has been made for the transition period for the Southern region solely in mind. There are no ranges that can easily be crossed to other areas and if they were, it’s by happy coincidence rather than a released aimed at trying to satisfy two areas.

 

Southern fans might think that they are able to reap the bounty of such efforts, but now with so much made for the region that polled well, the issue is turning to over saturation of the market when models are made by main ranges, shops and magazine commissions. Its also a disadvantage to have so many units specifically for one sole region, and when you look away from Southern engines and take into account the broader range of southern stock, that’s where you see that there’s an oversupply of models made and as such some start sitting on shelves. I question whether there is demand for run after run of slam door EMUs for the Southern region, the same as there is demand for plenty of runs of something like a DMU, or a regional freight engine that would require a lot less in cost terms to produce, rather than a 4 coach unit.

 

That’s why people bemoan yet more made for the Southern region as everything is so specific and it removes a production slot which could have benefited others or rebalanced a range that is now causing demand for areas not served, like the North East, and over supply for some engine choices for the South. That’s not a myth, its analysis from looking at the ranges produced, from studying the poll data and from looking at the lists of engines sat reduced or on shelves on the 2^nd hand market too. The idea of this skewed and damaging Southern dominance is clear and companies should diversify more to areas untouched, rather than supply yet more which I expect to be the case, as there will be a delay between the companies realising this from the reaction and polls in the market within the last two years. Still, that won’t stop some sycophantic Southern fans decrying this, despite the fact that this is based on sound reasoning and information that has been seen in polls and can be a seen in the market. The truth hurts and its time that the Southern region gave way to give other areas a chance so that companies can make models high in demand and get good quick sales to improve cash flow which is all the more important as selections get harder and prices rise. But that won’t happen as they will point to models selling and justify them wanting more – but these now are fast getting into the regional pre-grouping areas and companies that split the Southern vote, just as the Eastern vote gets split amongst its constituents. When that’s the case, those Southern engines all become choices of ‘limited geographical coverage’, where as those in the North East can be found over a wide area and did have some that could be seen elsewhere – which can’t be said for Southern pre-grouping engines anywhere near as much.

 

That’s when the case for the NER demolishes that for engines down south. Your market is saturated, our case is stronger for future choices. Its time they woke up to the fact that the pendulum is swinging and our turn is due. That’s not myth its hard reality and that’s why you don’t like it.

Edited February 12, 2018 by The Black Hat

[phil gollin]

.

 

So, you "explode" the myth by just taking a nominal starting point, which I acknowledged anyway.

 

IF you insist on ignoring lots of models, of course you will get your bias.

 

I will ask again, has the newly announced Scottish model sold out on pre-order yet ?  Your efforts would be better focussed on arranging that than trying to spread misinformation.

 

.

[ezza]

I also believe the Robinson A5 covered a large geographical location. For me they were found on the Saltburn branch and at Darlington.

Agree my dream  loco and one whos time surely must of come.Also anything post 1923 has little interest for me.

[micklner]

A5, the one Oxford should have done, not the N7 which had a very limited area of use.

[spackz]

A5, the one Oxford should have done, not the N7 which had a very limited area of use.

I certainly echo these Class A5 posts/requests. They were seen all over the eastern. Grantham to Nottingham to Darlington. What better link locomotive to have to start the NER revolution. I don't model the NER but a B16 and G5 would be on the shopping list. Along with a J6 and C12. Here's hoping.

[9402 Fredrick]

A J21, J27, Q7, B16, or G5 would work for me in terms of NER locos honestly.

[The Black Hat]

.

 

So, you "explode" the myth by just taking a nominal starting point, which I acknowledged anyway.

 

IF you insist on ignoring lots of models, of course you will get your bias.

 

I will ask again, has the newly announced Scottish model sold out on pre-order yet ?  Your efforts would be better focussed on arranging that than trying to spread misinformation.

 

.

 

 Are you for real? 

 

You accuse me of bias for excluding lots of models, yet you then acknowledge the need for a comparison point to be made. Its no good counting every single model that's ever been made. No one is rushing to go and buy a Lima class 37 anymore to then fit with sound, lights and chips. Things have moved on and the super detail era and the start of digital is the best time to do it as it makes a level playing field. For the information I collated, I surveyed the various ranges and took the most model release to count. A lot of the new engines announced have already been over and done engines that existed before the Merchant Navy in 2000. Hornby's B1 has taken over from Bachmann's, Hornby updated their version of the A3 and A4. Bachmann expanded their range to bring new classes to the market, but it still meant that many engines that were done before hand had been retooled and done again. That's not ignoring them, that's counting the most up to date version. Really, its yet more ammunition to say that again the Southern lot have got more by comparison with others and its time to move on as the region is saturated with releases. 

 

Meanwhile, why are you trying to use the Scottish J36 as an example in a thread about the range of releases for the North East Railway or Region? I would like to see it sell well for the Scottish contingent like those lobbying for the North East to be rewarded for the patience and gratitude, but for those in the North East its not much use, save for if your modelling areas of Northumberland or the boarders. Its like me asking you if all the Bachmann 64xx pannier tanks have sold out, because they operated somewhere roughly south of Birmingham so that's sort of the right area. It's not. Its not even close so I wouldn't do it. Yes the J36 is a new release, but its one for Scotland, not the North East. The reason its getting a mention is that polling information puts several North Eastern designs higher in terms of popularity as shown above, so if the J36 can be made and is seen as viable then so too can engines like the J21, J25, J27, B16, and G5. 

 

None of this is misinformation, its simple analysis based of information I have collated, most of which has been derived from the RM Web wishlist poll, so its freely available and has been published. God knows why you think I need to push for the J36 to sell out given its the wrong region for me and others here that also agree and want more NER engines. Should I push for the J15 too? My efforts and plenty of others are all waiting for the time when further NER region models are made. We are fairly pragmatic that they are likely to come in time now that K1, Q6 and J72 have been done or will be. But its easy to be in denial about a situation and criticise others from a flawed and skewed position when your judgement is clouded because your used to having and getting what you want.