RTR North Eastern Railway Locomotives - A discussion.

[Compound2632]

All Great Western 4-6-0s look the same?

 

How can you say that?!? 

 

Some had four cylinders, whilst others had two!

 

Did I mention 4-6-0s?

[nathan70000]

Trying to claim the Tyneside 2EPBs as representative NER prototypes is like claiming the Isle of Wight 483s are representative of all Southern stock!

 

Nobody is ridiculing other railways on this thread. If anything, this discussion (which has potential to be rather interesting) seems to have been hijacked by people intent on belittling those whose interests lie in the NER and dismissing us as 'niche' and thus not worthy of a model railway manufacturer's attention. Getting back on track- what about a Ex-S&DR Stephenson Long Boiler 0-6-0? There's one of those in the NRM and I believe 1001 lasted until 1923 at Whitby.

[coachmann]

The original NER B16 is an obvious choice because it had a long lifespan. The D20 lasted longer but was scrapped earlier. Personally, my choice would run with the sixty D20 4-4-0's because of their beautiful lines. By the time of withdrawal in November 1957, they were I think the last of the classic 4-4-0's with straight running plate and large splashers. They just glided along on those large drivers and to have seen one of these Victorian classics in the flesh must have been really something. Full NER livery would look swell and yet their typical NER straightforward lines did not depend on colour to make these locos look attractive. 

Edited August 1, 2018 by coachmann

[The Black Hat]

.

 

Well that was a good piece of evasion, you avoid the fact that your arguments for the NE do not apply to the (NE) Tyneside electrics.

 

I AM NOT putting it "at Southern needs more"  -  I was pointing out that you are willing to avoid a model that has a Southern connection WHICH WOULD MAKE IT MORE COMMERCIAL just because of that Southern connection.

 

I keep asking, so I will repeat, how are your (and others efforts) going at getting the announced NE items sold out on pre-order ?

 

What is important is that the model railway companies make money.

 

.

 

Its not evasion either. I have listen to your views on the Tyneside electric market, but immediately said that if a model were to be made, it would be more beneficial to those modelling the southern area that they then went to, rather than the smaller geographical area that they were used around Tyneside. 

 

Then I and others have pointed out that it would be far more commercial to make a model that it more suited and widespread across the NE system, that then could fit better into a range and shows a significantly higher demand in wish-list polling for those modelling the north east. Our discussion here to raise awareness and shared interest in the topic and the prototypes that could be made, discussing the merits for their inclusion in a range is no different to the many posts and threads that you read about the various Southern engines that are released and people then asking for another that ran with it or was seen nearby. 

 

Its not as if people wanting NER models are so blatant to stick a personal wish list of engines on as our signature, which also highlights the fact that some modelling Southern areas are modelling across the entire region, which is causing saturation and thus seeing models left on shelves, particularly engines in main ranges as everyone rushes to get stock of the novelty and new items. How exactly is so many models all aimed at the Southern market being announced all going to be sold out on pre-order? Why are their Southern models in bargin bins and sat on shelves? Isnt it dangerous to have saturation for a market and dead stock for a region because there is so much released for one area, when companies need cashflow? Thats the last thing that Hornby needs... 

 

Not so for those wanting just a B16, J21/25, J27, some Clerestory stock, a 20t hopper and a birdcage brake van, plus a lovely little model of Aerolite for the NCiM. Its really not that much to ask for... and we'd be happy / overjoyed with that... 

Trying to claim the Tyneside 2EPBs as representative NER prototypes is like claiming the Isle of Wight 483s are representative of all Southern stock!

 

Nobody is ridiculing other railways on this thread. If anything, this discussion (which has potential to be rather interesting) seems to have been hijacked by people intent on belittling those whose interests lie in the NER and dismissing us as 'niche' and thus not worthy of a model railway manufacturer's attention. Getting back on track- what about a Ex-S&DR Stephenson Long Boiler 0-6-0? There's one of those in the NRM and I believe 1001 lasted until 1923 at Whitby.

 

Take a bow, sir. 

[south_tyne]

 

Not so for those wanting just a B16, J21/25, J27, some Clerestory stock, a 20t hopper and a birdcage brake van, plus a lovely little model of Aerolite for the NCiM. Its really not that much to ask for... and we'd be happy / overjoyed with that...

:

To be fair Mr Black Hat you have been peddling this list ad naseum. It is your personal wishlist and whilst I would accept that it someone mirrors the polls that are picking around, it is still what you want personally, to fit your own modelling location and area. Please don't take this as a personal slight or criticism, it definitely isn't meant as such, but it is somewhat dominating this thread. I see virtue in your suggestions, particularly as my main interest is also in the railways of the Bishop Auckland area, but ultimately they are not all going to be realised and the priority should be on the most marketable choices for Hornby (or indeed any other manufacturer).

 

PS - and what have us Geordies and our Tyneside electrics done to offend you (very much tongue in cheek)

[The Black Hat]

To be fair Mr Black Hat you have been peddling this list ad naseum. It is your personal wishlist and whilst I would accept that it someone mirrors the polls that are picking around, it is still what you want personally, to fit your own modelling location and area. Please don't take this as a personal slight or criticism, it definitely isn't meant as such, but it is somewhat dominating this thread. I see virtue in your suggestions, particularly as my main interest is also in the railways of the Bishop Auckland area, but ultimately they are not all going to be realised and the priority should be on the most marketable choices for Hornby (or indeed any other manufacturer).

 

PS - and what have us Geordies and our Tyneside electrics done to offend you (very much tongue in cheek)

 

I agree, it is partly a wishlist, but its also mainly those which could be selected to be the ones most likely to be made by a company looking to choose something for the region. Yes, its true that any potential list and my own preferences are very similar, but then I have looked for and thought which ones would be best for the region first and picked the ones Id like most from that. 

 

Personally speaking my own ultimate preference would be for J21, but I can see that J27 will most likely be the engine that could come next. No offence was taken. 

[south_tyne]

I agree, it is partly a wishlist, but its also mainly those which could be selected to be the ones most likely to be made by a company looking to choose something for the region. Yes, its true that any potential list and my own preferences are very similar, but then I have looked for and thought which ones would be best for the region first and picked the ones Id like most from that.

 

Personally speaking my own ultimate preference would be for J21, but I can see that J27 will most likely be the engine that could come next. No offence was taken.

That's a balanced response and argument and I fully agree it is about what would be best for modellers across the region. A J21 would also be my number one choice any new NER loco would be very much welcomed

[DougN]

I know that I have already nailed my colours to the mast on this discussion. I as others are saying the J21 is the prefered but the likely is the J26/J27. the reason why I include both classes together as they are variants of the same design which can easily be done with boilers (super heated/ saturated), Cabs- tear drop or round windows, long and short smoke box. The history is intertwined some locos starting as J26 then to J27 then back to J26. Effectively these are a single class! The tenders have the same number of differences. 

 

Over the 14 pages I have noticed that generally the consensus has resulted in a good short list of

 

Locos

J21

J26/J27 (as above) 

B16 

D20 

 

Carriages 

Clerestory ahead of the Arc roofed 

 

Freight/ Wagons

20t Hopper 

Bird cage brake

 

From a personal point of view I would like a B16 but it would be at the bottom of my list. I am quite confident that the carriages and freight are more likely sooner than the locos  ... Please some one prove me wrong! 

[Jol Wilkinson]

Surely any suggestion as to what a RTR manufacturer should make is a wish list. The justification for what would sell well, be easiest to produce, etc. is simply an attempt to prove what you actually want someone else to make for you is is a commercial proposition.

[phil gollin]

Trying to claim the Tyneside 2EPBs as representative NER prototypes is like claiming the Isle of Wight 483s are representative of all Southern stock!

 

Nobody is ridiculing other railways on this thread. If anything, this discussion (which has potential to be rather interesting) seems to have been hijacked by people intent on belittling those whose interests lie in the NER and dismissing us as 'niche' and thus not worthy of a model railway manufacturer's attention. Getting back on track- what about a Ex-S&DR Stephenson Long Boiler 0-6-0? There's one of those in the NRM and I believe 1001 lasted until 1923 at Whitby.

.

 

NO ONE (and certainly not me) has said that the Tyneside 2-EPBs are representative of the NE.  Unfortunately there are a couple of people who have been ridiculing other railways.

 

What matters is commercial viability.

 

.

[phil gollin]

.

 

...............  Then I and others have pointed out that it would be far more commercial to make a model that it more suited and widespread across the NE system, that then could fit better into a range and shows a significantly higher demand in wish-list polling for those modelling the north east. Our discussion here to raise awareness and shared interest in the topic and the prototypes that could be made, discussing the merits for their inclusion in a range is no different to the many posts and threads that you read about the various Southern engines that are released and people then asking for another that ran with it or was seen nearby. ..............

 

.

.

 

Again you avoid the question.  It was pointed out that you don't want a model which has connections to another region, which would make it more commercial.

 

Likewise, you keep avoiding the question of what have you (and others done) to ensure that the announced NE models are going to be sold out on pre-order ?

 

The way to get new NE models is to buy the existing (and announced) ones  -  this is true for ALL regions.

 

.

[Compound2632]

Apologies. I did make a snarky remark about the Great Western.

 

I would love to see both NER 0-6-0s in all their varieties - Class C as everything from the Wordsell-von Borries compounds to the aged J21s, and also the various Ps - J24 - J27 for LNER speakers. But then I'd also love to see:

 

MR Johnson 0-6-0 in 1890s condition;

Any Stirling 0-6-0, especially James' Class O and Matthew's Class B;

LNWR DX/SDX.

 

Each the most numerous class of locomotive on their respective railways.

Edited August 2, 2018 by Compound2632

[trevor7598]

I think many of the loco classes and items of rollingstock suggested on this thread are for the connoisseur,

and would likely be purchased by such specialists, but what about the rest of a production run ?.

I wouldn't think any of the main manufacturers are producing large batches these days, but we still see

some surprising models discounted to shift them. The Hornby Q6 for example, and more surprising

the Bachmann Birdcages, the first true pre-group coaches to a high standard ever produced by anyone.

 

There are lots of models I would like to see and buy, but if manufacturers dip their toe in the water

and get burnt with poor sales, they won't go there again.

[The Black Hat]

Again you avoid the question.  It was pointed out that you don't want a model which has connections to another region, which would make it more commercial.

 

I answered it - you just didn't like the answer. I'm more than happy for a model that has connections to another region to be made which would make it more commercial, to be bought as it would be useful to those modelling the north east. Your problem is the prototype you chose. If it was chosen it would be more because of its work and life down south, rather than its use around Newcastle. The reasons I have given are perfectly reasonable - being its very limited geographical operation in the north east and a limited time of operation. They would be more use for someone modelling down south and if there were anyone around Newcastle that could benefit because they wanted them after they were announced then that's great.  

 

BUT - most people modelling the north east are not modelling Newcastle suburbia. Granted some will, but not all, hence the call and discussion to find what engines are wanted across the region and across periods so that it can be highlighted which classes are wanted in a significant demand. There are plenty of engines that have been announced and made for other regions that have been bought because of their regional connection, especially if your modelling the BR transition period and the end of steam - there are plenty of others for other periods, but there is a wealth of engines available that have connections to other areas. Examples of this are (in no particular order): the BR Standard 3MT-T, the O1, L1, B1, K1, Ivatt 4MT, Ivatt 2MT, BR Standard 4MT-T, BR Standard 4MT (both types), A1, A2, A3, A4, J94, Fairburn tank, V1/V3, V2, J39, Class 03, Class 08, Class 20, Class 24, Class 25, Class 31, Class 45, Class 47, Class 55, Derby Lightweight, Class 101, Class 108 and probably more.  

 

Hence the call for indigenous engines that come from across the whole North East region, ones widespread and ones that will supplement those released above, but also the Q6 and the forthcoming J72 and G5.

 

Likewise, you keep avoiding the question of what have you (and others done) to ensure that the announced NE models are going to be sold out on pre-order ?

 

The way to get new NE models is to buy the existing (and announced) ones  -  this is true for ALL regions.

 

No we haven't. We have said that when the model is made, we (being me and others) will be looking to buy them. Its great when a model is sold out on pre-order but also just as good to be released and sold on release quickly. Given that Q6 is the only DCC, super detailed model to date and has sold well, that bodes well for next releases. Its also good to see a retailer taking on the run of a North East Model by putting the capital up front. Clearly they think that asking Bachmann to make it for them and owning the rights for its release will give them a good profit and return on their investment. Why do that if the market and demand is not there? I'm looking to by some of these, and the forthcoming J72 as well, which Bachmann look to be doing a fantastic job. If Hornby were to follow the J36 with a J21 then again, I'm looking to get several of those gorgeous machines.

 

The alternative, is number of companies with a main range, start ups, and retailer commissions all choosing one or two areas, but flooding the market with releases all at the same time, meaning that theres new stock made and sat on shelves. They are not sold out on pre-order, nor are they sold quickly after release as there's so much stock to buy.

 

What's needed is a balance, based on demand but also the ability to purchase to maintain steady cashflow for the manufacturer - that's true for all company's manufacturing the models, but all the modellers of regions that want to buy them.

Edited August 2, 2018 by The Black Hat

[Joseph_Pestell]

A manufacturer can't really go wrong with a small locomotive as they ran everywhere and therefore suitable for all modellers: whether branch line or main line.

 

Some carriages would be useful and, so far as I know (which is not much!), the NER was fairly standardised on underframe lengths. So it should not be too difficult to produce a set of carriages suitable to form a typical train.

[spackz]

I know that I have already nailed my colours to the mast on this discussion. I as others are saying the J21 is the prefered but the likely is the J26/J27. the reason why I include both classes together as they are variants of the same design which can easily be done with boilers (super heated/ saturated), Cabs- tear drop or round windows, long and short smoke box. The history is intertwined some locos starting as J26 then to J27 then back to J26. Effectively these are a single class! The tenders have the same number of differences.

 

Over the 14 pages I have noticed that generally the consensus has resulted in a good short list of

 

Locos

J21

J26/J27 (as above)

B16

D20

 

Carriages

Clerestory ahead of the Arc roofed

 

Freight/ Wagons

20t Hopper

Bird cage brake

 

From a personal point of view I would like a B16 but it would be at the bottom of my list. I am quite confident that the carriages and freight are more likely sooner than the locos ... Please some one prove me wrong!

Good round up of Locos there. I model a bit more south, anywhere from Leeds to Manchester to Nottingham. This means I can easily run a B16. On the flip side people modelling the NER can also run J6's and A5's, which for me are a personal favourite. These 3 locos plus the N5 and C12 are the only steam locos now that would get me spending anymore money. All advantageous to NER, GNR and GCR modellers and all would hopefully be welcome additions.

[nathan70000]

Would love a C12, a common sight around East Yorkshire in the 1920s and 30s. Wasn't there an LBSCR version too?

[runs as required]

...I would love to see both NER 0-6-0s in all their varieties - Class C as everything from the Wordsell-von Borries compounds to the aged J21s, and also the various Ps - J24 - J27 for LNER speakers. But then I'd also love to see:

 

MR Johnson 0-6-0 in 1890s condition;

Any Stirling 0-6-0, especially James' Class O and Matthew's Class B;

LNWR DX/SDX.

 

Each the most numerous class of locomotive on their respective railways.

And strange how an N6 has never been offered. Wasn't the GN 0-6-2T always a Hornby Dublo stalwart?

dh

Edited August 2, 2018 by runs as required

[Edwardian]

I think many of the loco classes and items of rollingstock suggested on this thread are for the connoisseur,

and would likely be purchased by such specialists, but what about the rest of a production run ?.

I wouldn't think any of the main manufacturers are producing large batches these days, but we still see

some surprising models discounted to shift them. The Hornby Q6 for example, and more surprising

the Bachmann Birdcages, the first true pre-group coaches to a high standard ever produced by anyone.

 

There are lots of models I would like to see and buy, but if manufacturers dip their toe in the water

and get burnt with poor sales, they won't go there again.

 

There are two ways to go, and they are not mutually exclusive.

 

One is to go for the prestige option that people will want on their layout or shelf whether it fits or not.  Here the best answer is probably the Tenant, which in later condition also makes a versatile workaday locomotive.  it has to have star quality at it did not reach BR, where the volume sales still lie.  This will certainly not be Hornby; they couldn't and wouldn't take it on right now, even if asked to, which I doubt.

 

The other route is the very useful standard 0-6-0.  My preference would be the C (J21?) or the P (J25? - someone can translate for me).Here we are much more in line with what Hornby has already produced.

 

Both routes are distinctly possible if you don't restrict the conversation to Hornby.   

 

However, I do think the chances of anyone getting burnt as a result of sticking their toe in the water is fairly remote. 

[Barry O]

I would dearly love to have a set of NER Atlantics..possibly some of the most graceful locomotives to grace the rails of Britain.  BUT the need to provide suitable coaching stock to go with then would test my determination as so few kits are available to help to provide such coaching stock..

 

Baz

[south_tyne]

I would dearly love to have a set of NER Atlantics..possibly some of the most graceful locomotives to grace the rails of Britain.

 

Agreed with that! The height of locomotive design in my humble opinion. Beautiful locos...

[south_tyne]

Over the 14 pages I have noticed that generally the consensus has resulted in a good short list of

 

I still argue that there is no 'concensus' here, just a representative view of a handful folk who have happened to chance across this thread on this forum and is ultimately dominated by the viewpoints of a handful of individuals.

[Craigw]

I still argue that there is no 'concensus' here, just a representative view of a handful folk who have happened to chance across this thread on this forum and is ultimately dominated by the viewpoints of a handful of individuals.

 

Having read through this after stumbling on it a day or so ago, you are correct.

 

it is a wish list stuck in the Hornby posts. nothing more, nothing less.

 

Craig W

[Neil]

.

 

..... The way to get new NE models is to buy the existing (and announced) ones  -  this is true for ALL regions.

 

.

 

Really? So we should buy something we don't want or already have sufficient of to ensure that we get the model we do want?

 

I'm sure that I've read somewhere (it may even have been here on RMweb) that models get chosen for production partly on the basis of perceived demand, poll results, trends in the hobby, customer feedback etc and partly down to the gut instincts of those in charge of commissioning the models. Previous sales may be a part of the equation but I'd suggest that they perhaps matter less than we think they might. It's fairly obvious that Hornby's Sentinels and Pecket can't have been based on previous sales of industrial prototypes as they were the first of their kind.

[Compound2632]

And strange how an N6 has never been offered. Wasn't the GN 0-6-2T always a Hornby Dublo stalwart?

dh

 

I'm trying to get my head round that. I'll give you that at 18 engines, they were the most numerous LD&ECR class, which fits with my thesis. They'll also do for the H&BR and hence NER, to keep us on topic. Or did you mean TW Worsdell's Class B? - reasonably numerous, at 52 engines, long-lived and widespread, also sharing a boiler with the C and P. All but one built as Worsdell-von Borries compounds. of course.

 

But for a really classy-looking 0-6-2T, it's hard to beat Parker's pioneering Belpaire boilered engines of classes 9A and 9F. A very numerous type, with 313 built, mostly under the auspices of Parker's successors. Plenty of survivors into the 1950s, too.

Edited August 3, 2018 by Compound2632