RMweb Gold D9020 Nimbus Posted November 22, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 22, 2018 The "700" has been made in rebuilt form—don't know how relevant that is for the LSWR period. Same applies to the T9. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sem34090 Posted November 22, 2018 Author Share Posted November 22, 2018 I think that possibly one or two of each was rebuilt just before the grouping, but the T9 and 700 are essentially useless to the pre-grouping modeller. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonny777 Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 I would love someone to announce the production of an RTR B16 (any variety) in 00; but I fear it will not happen probably because of the differences, such as front wheel drive and lengthy boiler. I'm not sure why I think these should make any difference, but I suppose that parts from other similar locos in the catalogue cannot be used, and there is no preserved example to be measured. I have thought of trying a kit, but my previous efforts with smaller loco classes have been so inadequate that it is less stressful to go without completely. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sem34090 Posted November 22, 2018 Author Share Posted November 22, 2018 We can but hope... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 Personally, the thing I'd most like to see RTR are some NER clerestories. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkC Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 I would love someone to announce the production of an RTR B16 (any variety) in 00; but I fear it will not happen probably because of the differences, such as front wheel drive and lengthy boiler. I'm not sure why I think these should make any difference, but I suppose that parts from other similar locos in the catalogue cannot be used, and there is no preserved example to be measured. I have thought of trying a kit, but my previous efforts with smaller loco classes have been so inadequate that it is less stressful to go without completely. Seeing how a RTR manufacturer would tackle the issue of the front bogie/cylinder interface whilst still allowing operation round fairly small radius track would be interesting,for sure. BUT, if it can be done then it would open the door for NER Atlantics, A7 and A8 tanks, the 4-8-0Ts or even Raven's big beastie - his Pacific. The last is, I would be the first to admit, probably a step too far, but never say never... Certainly a B16 would be a good choice for many - they were long-lived, were used on many varieties of trains, could be seen all over the old NER routes and occasionally further afield. Oh, and to many they could be regarded as a 'big chuffer' 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Black Hat Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 Firstly, I still think it's unfair of you to compare the NER with the Southern. Granted, they were of similar size as it happened, but a Rebuilt Merchant Navy is hardly any use to anyone other than a BR(S) modeller is it? I've always held the belief that locos of the longest lives (preferably long enough to have seen a pretty pre-grouping livery) would be the best choices, and the NER is full of those. There is no LSWR S15 available. An LSWR S15 could be bashed from the RTR model, but it certainly isn't a pre-grouping machine as-produced. Same goes for the N15. The Terriers, although not widespread in the grand scheme of British Railways became far more widespread than you give them credit for! Hiya, I respect your opinion and can see where your coming from. The Merchant Navy is selected as its the start of Super Detail, and roughly the start of the cut off for the Wishlist poll. The models of some of the ones you have mentioned are listed as LSWR models. It might be that they are not back-dated, but rather that even the later design has been made. Its like an ex-NER B16 being made with the change of smokebox door and other things that moved on when parts needing changing. That's why given the stats, its interesting to compare Southern vs NE Region. The NE Region came about when Nationalisation was introduced, so you can compare like with like as the two are similar and its why its frustrating to see so many models that stem from pre-grouping done in the nationalisation transition period that are available. But that's deliberate, that's the period that is currently still most popular and its the one most people would want pre-grouping engines done for even if some wanted them at the start of their careers. Its why companies made these models for that period and then have sold well. You can have your slam door EMU, alongside the Rebuilt Merc and the pre-grouping steam. Up north we get diesels that were everywhere and some regional steam, only now we get some pre-grouping things coming to market that are indigenous to the North East proper. The fact that the models where done a few years ago, shows that designs also probably just included one set of tooling so a conscious decision was done to make them all in a later guise. Now companies offer more variation in the tooling to get more differences which the modellers also like. Given that this means that pre-grouping designs can be done and done accurately has allowed the niche element of demand to build, probably a barrier broken down by the Wainwright C-class, the Sterling single and prototype Deltic. Yet, this also gives pregrouping a chance to grow and create a demand for companies to supply, hence the call for models from both pregrouping Southern and NE designs to be called for. All I can say is that us pre-grouping Southern modellers haven't had it all our own way. Indeed, I think the plethora of ex-LSWR locos is far more frustrating than if there were no ex-LSWR locos! The only LSWR models available are the M7 and 415. I hope, however, that more NER stuff becomes available before too long. It may put this whole argument to bed. It shouldn't be NER vs SR... How about NER vs GER? There's a lot of GER (Well, ex-GER) stuff available these days to the point that there's even appropriate coaching stock for use on ex-GER lines (if one models the BR period). Or NER vs ex-Midland? Your right, you haven't had it all your own way, but given the amount of tooling and models made by mainstream companies and then add on shop commissions and the Southern region including pre-grouping steam - you've have a lot of it. I can understand the supply and make of Southern models, the demand is obviously there, but its there for other regions too and not just NER. However, again its getting caught up between comparing the two different periods - North East Railway at grouping and North East Region at end of steam, both of which are written as NER. Hence its NE Region vs SR at end of Steam and NER vs LSWR/SECR/GWR/LNWR/MR, etc. Its great to see Scottish interest being rewarded as they too have taken ages to get anything new, but as for NER v's other Eastern groups - that was covered some pages ago and has been updated. As for other regions as well, then I shall try to give that information out there soon for people to look and debate it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sem34090 Posted November 22, 2018 Author Share Posted November 22, 2018 Well, before I continue to confuse myself and others I'll add that I would really rather like to do an NER layout at some stage... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil gollin Posted November 23, 2018 Share Posted November 23, 2018 . @ "Black Hat" 1: Again, by concentrating only on the post "super-detail" starting point, you ignore the previous advantage of other regions. The Southern has merely been catching up. 2: Likewise, by concentrating on "size" you ignore the issue that the Southern (and its constituents) carried many more passengers than others being the main commuting lines into central London. As I have said before, the thing to do is to ensure any NER, or relevant LNER loco/rolling stock item sells out on pre-order. It all depends on how you look at things. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Regularity Posted November 23, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 23, 2018 It all depends on how you look at things. To (mis-)quote Vic Reeves, “I am looking at this from the perspective of a cat trapped in a cupboard.” 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brack Posted November 23, 2018 Share Posted November 23, 2018 The southern might've carried more passengers, but the north eastern carried more freight. Especially lumpy black flammable rocks. I'm struggling to find the exact no. of locos each railway had at grouping, but have managed to get hold of the numerical ranges used by lines at grouping from http://www.britishrailways.info/LOCOMOTIVE%20NUMBERING.htm It's important to note that not all of these numbers were necessarily allocated in 1923. But its as good a set of numbers I have and should provide a reasonable approximation. NER is 1-2404, so approx 2400, plus approx 150 Hull & Barnsley (if you were to choose to include them). SECR 1-825 LSWR 1-773 LBSC 1-699 Looking at that roughly the southern had about 2300 locos at grouping. So you might expect a similar amount of pregrouping NER designs available RTR as there are for all SR constituent companies combined. You see the point. The NER was pretty comparable to the entire southern railway in size and loco stock. Yet not many of its locos have been made available. Especially surprising when you consider that several of their designs were amongst the longest lasting pregrouping locos, some with service lives of 80 odd years. That isn't a call for less southern locos (for example) but pointing out that the basic premise of the company being underrepresented does seem to ring true. Perhaps when RTR manufacturers take the punt on a few NER types they might be pleasantly surprised. Up until then they don't really know whether or not they'll sell well. I would say that the Q6 wasn't the one I'd have picked first! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sem34090 Posted November 23, 2018 Author Share Posted November 23, 2018 That isn't a call for less southern locos (for example) but pointing out that the basic premise of the company being underrepresented does seem to ring true. Perhaps when RTR manufacturers take the punt on a few NER types they might be pleasantly surprised. Up until then they don't really know whether or not they'll sell well. I would say that the Q6 wasn't the one I'd have picked first! Finally! Some sense! A call for more NER locos doesn't require the slagging off of the Southern! Okay, so it might mean less new SR models, but that's fine! Hopefully the O (G5) proves popular, and we can hope for a C1 (J21) soon which really should have been the first! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brack Posted November 23, 2018 Share Posted November 23, 2018 Id have gone for a J21 - typical loco for any freight or passenger work, lasted from 1880s to 1960s, one preserved, pretty lined green livery available, served all over the NE and on the GE too and in industrial service. Essentially ideal for any rural branch which many layouts represent. Although a J25 would be of interest to wartime Great Western modellers too... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted November 23, 2018 Share Posted November 23, 2018 Finally! Some sense! A call for more NER locos doesn't require the slagging off of the Southern! Okay, so it might mean less new SR models, but that's fine! Hopefully the O (G5) proves popular, and we can hope for a C1 (J21) soon which really should have been the first! Based on amalgamations from the 1860s, you can look at the NER's different Divisions, locomotive works and practices as three railways, the equivalent, as your post suggest, of the entire southern group. Certainly, until Worsdell designs predominated, you are looking at some very distinct constituent parts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Regularity Posted November 23, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 23, 2018 (edited) Id have gone for a J21 - . Skip back a couple of days and pages... Edited November 23, 2018 by Regularity 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Black Hat Posted November 23, 2018 Share Posted November 23, 2018 (edited) We've been through this... @ "Black Hat" 1: Again, by concentrating only on the post "super-detail" starting point, you ignore the previous advantage of other regions. The Southern has merely been catching up. A line has to be drawn somewhere. No one is suggesting that the Princess class shouldn't be done again because there was one done by Triang, or that the A4 was wrong to be done again and again, etc. Yes there was engines done from other regions, but they were all LNE standard, or top link ones, that just passed through the north east on the main ECML. Nothing really that ventured off it. There was the J72, which is nice, but again its an engine that was never followed up with more. If you dont start from the super detailed period, your also not grasping that the market and end product has changed. Superdetailed soon included digital railways and a model produced today would have to be able to run on both analogue and a digital system. Older analogue engines can not run on a digital railway without being hardwired and most instead have sold off older stock and bought new. So a company wants to maximise sales by making an engine that runs on both and can be sold to someone running either. By including older and older models you introduce the element of tooling changes and engines that are simply not as good in terms of ability today, compared with those years ago, unless you just run an analogue system. Stand an older model alongside something new and the difference is massive. Why must older inaccurate Eastern models count, especially when the class has often been retooled and done again in super detailed form? The other reason to start here is that its when the cut off for the poll starts. That way you can match changes in the poll and compare the data from the poll with the products on the market. So much better to get a general overview that has many cross references and a good base point. 2: Likewise, by concentrating on "size" you ignore the issue that the Southern (and its constituents) carried many more passengers than others being the main commuting lines into central London. So what? Passengers are just self loading freight. The NER was massive compared to Southern pregrouping companies and was roughly the size of Southern at grouping. You ignore that the Southern was mainly passenger, where as the NER had a massive difference in the routes, loads and needs of its locomotive fleet across the whole NER network. Far more varied than the Southern network. . As I have said before, the thing to do is to ensure any NER, or relevant LNER loco/rolling stock item sells out on pre-order. It all depends on how you look at things. . And as for pre-orders... we cant order what hasn't been announced. TMC have done the G5 and its pre-orders are good. They are a private company that decided to contract in Bachmann for the job, so put their cash up front. Not Bachmann's. They wouldnt do that if they didnt believe the market was there. Then Hornby's Q6, has had follow up releases and now is getting thin on the ground. Finally, the Rails/Rapido Dynanometer car - oh yeah. Its sold out. A far cry from many steam engines sat in the bargain bins as another region is over saturated with demand. And as for pre-orders... we cant order what hasn't been announced. TMC have done the G5 and its pre-orders are good. They are a private company that decided to contract in Bachmann for the job, so put their cash up front. Not Bachmann's. They wouldnt do that if they didnt believe the market was there. Then Hornby's Q6, has had follow up releases and now is getting thin on the ground. Finally, the Rails/Rapido Dynanometer car - oh yeah. Its sold out. A far cry from many steam engines sat in the bargain bins as another region is over saturated with demand. Edited November 23, 2018 by The Black Hat Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brack Posted November 23, 2018 Share Posted November 23, 2018 If more than 1% of those dynamometer cars are intended for anything other than being stuck behind a gresley Pacific I'd be surprised. Its a bit of a red herring in terms of how well NER stock could sell. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold BlueLightning Posted November 24, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 24, 2018 Calm down everyone. We are just a bunch of grown ups playing with toy trains after all!! I for one think an influx of NER locos and stock would be excellent!! Especially in NER livery. However I don't see any way moaning about other regions is going to make that happen. As an LB&SCR / SECR modeller I do feel we have been spoiled recently. But the hobby goes though periods of focusing on one area, that's the facts of it. The fact that the Southern has got that this side of 'super detailing' is just pure luck for Southern modellers if you ask me, but it's not like it will stay that way, so why don't we have a nice descussion about things we would like to see happen instead of moaning about things that have already happened? Besides the announcements aren't far away, maybe this year will be the NERs year! Gary Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Black Hat Posted November 24, 2018 Share Posted November 24, 2018 If more than 1% of those dynamometer cars are intended for anything other than being stuck behind a gresley Pacific I'd be surprised. Its a bit of a red herring in terms of how well NER stock could sell. Yeah, really it is as its quite a novelty considering most of the time at the NRM is stationary. I think some might use it for exchange trials, but others might just box it and collect it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Turpin Posted November 24, 2018 Share Posted November 24, 2018 (edited) As Bachmann appears to have become the only manufacturer to become associated with the Atlantic wheel arrangement (all power to their elbow in that endeavor), would it not be fitting if they introduced a Z class, LNER C7 Atlantic as their next tour de force? Note I didn't recommend a V class, as Arthur K has that one covered as part of his imminent line up of exemplary kits for those who have taken their North Eastern Railway model making skills to another level. I feel it helps to keep an eye on the bigger picture with respect to what is available generally when deciding where the gaps lie. Of course, I'm always delighted with the announced release of anything for the North Eastern area from any source. What would excite me greatly, however, would be coaches: non corridor, clerestory or elliptical, take your pick, I'm not fussy! Edited November 24, 2018 by Dick Turpin 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil gollin Posted November 24, 2018 Share Posted November 24, 2018 . YET ANOTHER North-Eastern loco announced !!!!!!!!!! http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/139650-accurascale-announce-4mm-deltic/ (But as it only pulled passenger trains I suppose it doesn't count ) . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brack Posted November 24, 2018 Share Posted November 24, 2018 . YET ANOTHER North-Eastern loco announced !!!!!!!!!! http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/139650-accurascale-announce-4mm-deltic/ (But as it only pulled passenger trains I suppose it doesn't count ) . Whilst I agree that raven's designs and ideas were advanced for the prewar period I'm not sure anyone would argue he'd had one of those up his sleeve. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil gollin Posted November 24, 2018 Share Posted November 24, 2018 . Well (!) arguably the NER Petrol-electric railcar was the ancestor of the Deltic . 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted November 24, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 24, 2018 (edited) From the 1890s at least, electric traction was being seen as the way forward - electrification would have been happening on a large scale by the 1920s if the Great War hadn't intervened. S.W. Johnson wrote, in somewhat tongue-in-cheek tone, to the Midland's Locomotive Committee objecting to the company's Electrical Engineer presuming to claim that all electrical work fell within his department, as this would make Johnson's own post redundant. He was adamant that the soon-to-come electric locomotives would remain the Locomotive Superintendent's responsibility! Edited November 24, 2018 by Compound2632 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Regularity Posted November 24, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 24, 2018 Johnson needn’t have worried: the generation of electricity usually starts with steam-powered turbines... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now