RTR North Eastern Railway Locomotives - A discussion.

[Jol Wilkinson]

"likely to come in time". A mantra for the RTR modeller and an excuse for not getting stuck in and making the models you so desperately want?

 

Surely this topic illustrates the changes in this hobby in the last decade or two. Improvements in the perceived quality of RTR (see Wright Writes for Tony' experiences on his Loco Clinic at shows), social media providing a platform for protracted wishlists, frothing and rational theses on what manufacturers should produce and the mainstream modelling print media increasingly and extensively focusing on RTR products in their news and reviews sections. Has pounding the keyboard taken over from making models on the workbench?

 

I have a number of friends and acquaintances who model the NER, MR, GNR, LNWR, NSR, GER and other pre group railways. While they are not averse to using and modifying RTR items, they don't allow their modelling aspirations to be limited by what the RTR manufacturers decide to produce. Some have even gone so far as to design etched and 3D products to provide what they want. We are well provided with a good, although not totally exhaustive, selection of kits for pre grouping models (both etched and cast w/m) including many of the locos listed in this topic.

 

So perhaps the answer lies in people's own hands, rather than relying on the RTR manufacturers and hoping they will produce what you want. Judging by RTR new release and product development times, I still think it would be ten years before you got two or three new NER locos. And without doubt, that would only satisfy a few wish listers. Or is it better to travel seated comfortably in possibly forlorn hope, rather than arrive with a bit of a struggle?

Edited February 13, 2018 by Jol Wilkinson

[The Black Hat]

A J21, J27, Q7, B16, or G5 would work for me in terms of NER locos honestly.

 

Ditto!  

[The Black Hat]

"likely to come in time". A mantra for the RTR modeller and an excuse for not getting stuck in and making the models you so desperately want?

 

Surely this topic illustrates the changes in this hobby in the last decade or two. Improvements in the perceived quality of RTR (see Wright Writes for Tony' experiences on his Loco Clinic at shows), social media providing a platform for protracted wishlists, frothing and rational theses on what manufacturers should produce and the mainstream modelling print media increasingly and extensively focusing on RTR products in their news and reviews sections. Has pounding the keyboard taken over from making models on the workbench?

 

I have a number of friends and acquaintances who model the NER, MR, GNR, LNWR, NSR, GER and other pre group railways. While they are not averse to using and modifying RTR items, they don't allow their modelling aspirations to be limited by what the RTR manufacturers decide to produce. Some have even gone so far as to design etched and 3D products to provide what they want. We are well provided with a good, although not totally exhaustive, selection of kits for pre grouping models (both etched and cast w/m) including many of the locos listed in this topic.

 

So perhaps the answer lies in people's own hands, rather than relying on the RTR manufacturers and hoping they will produce what you want. Judging by RTR new release and product development times, I still think it would be ten years before you got two or three new NER locos. And without doubt, that would only satisfy a few wish listers. Or is it better to travel seated comfortably in possibly forlorn hope, rather than arrive with a bit of a struggle?

 

The problem with this is that your fast charging into the Kit vs todays RTR release - and not the kit vs standard RTR. I'd think that a great majority of those running railways with pre-grouping engines made from kits are all on an analogue system, with a collection that has been built up over years. As a result, they are now happy to have a kit built engine that can run alongside the rest of their fleet. What it doesn't take into account is the massive leap in standards by RTR, especially when you factor in the digital revolution that as swept the hobby.

 

Few people would think that getting a kit built engine, to then fit into it DCC sound and lights would represent good value for money when you compare it against some of the RTR releases. Kit's also don't lend themselves to fitting all of that stuff into the design as really they are built for an analogue operation. You then have to factor in the appearance and finish of some kit built engines, which although are very good, do not give the uniform look and appearance that you can get by having several of an RTR release alongside each other, which is what the fleet of a locomotive class should look like.

 

It isn't simply a case of waiting to see what can be done. Personally, I have been considering attacking a Hornby J15 to convert to a NER J21, as you'd need all those parts off the chassis as a starting point. Its a case of choosing what standard you wish to run at and what can be done in the time taken to get a model made, then seeing if the value for money and expense means if a kit is a viable option.

 

For many now, running on digital, the kit is a much more expensive option that some realise and as such that can massively cause them to hesitate or wait for a new RTR model instead, especially when compared with engines announced for other areas, the evidence is that their choice would be a viable RTR release.

[PenrithBeacon]

I don't understand why 'The Black Hat' is obsessing about the North Eastern Railway as he's a modern image modeller. Give over for goodness sake!

[Jol Wilkinson]

The problem with this is that your fast charging into the Kit vs todays RTR release - and not the kit vs standard RTR. I'd think that a great majority of those running railways with pre-grouping engines made from kits are all on an analogue system, with a collection that has been built up over years. As a result, they are now happy to have a kit built engine that can run alongside the rest of their fleet. What it doesn't take into account is the massive leap in standards by RTR, especially when you factor in the digital revolution that as swept the hobby.

 

Few people would think that getting a kit built engine, to then fit into it DCC sound and lights would represent good value for money when you compare it against some of the RTR releases. Kit's also don't lend themselves to fitting all of that stuff into the design as really they are built for an analogue operation. You then have to factor in the appearance and finish of some kit built engines, which although are very good, do not give the uniform look and appearance that you can get by having several of an RTR release alongside each other, which is what the fleet of a locomotive class should look like.

 

It isn't simply a case of waiting to see what can be done. Personally, I have been considering attacking a Hornby J15 to convert to a NER J21, as you'd need all those parts off the chassis as a starting point. Its a case of choosing what standard you wish to run at and what can be done in the time taken to get a model made, then seeing if the value for money and expense means if a kit is a viable option.

 

For many now, running on digital, the kit is a much more expensive option that some realise and as such that can massively cause them to hesitate or wait for a new RTR model instead, especially when compared with engines announced for other areas, the evidence is that their choice would be a viable RTR release.

 

I am unsure of the meaning of your first sentence.

 

You may be right that those who have built their collection of locos over the years haven't gone the DCC route, but why is open to conjecture. I would suggest that those that build from kits ensure the  model is mechanically "sound" and runs well, irrespective of their chosen control system and therefore some, like me, don't see the need to go to DCC..

 

What percentage of RTR 00 buyers go for DCC or DC? How many of those that use DCC employ the services of a specialist to install and program chips. The number of businesses offering DCC  install and repair services would indicate that many do, adding to the cost of their purchases. So the kit versus RTR cost argument becomes rather spurious. However, it is regularly used as an argument for not building kits. Equally, modern small chips are readily fitted into kit built locos, which are usually built with electrically dead chassis, just like RTR. You are probably right when it comes to fitting sound modules.Unlike diesel locomotive, getting a genuine sound file for many older steam locos is not possible so how many people would want to install sound? 

 

The comparison between what you can build and what you can buy is of course valid unless you have learned and practise the required techniques. However, isn't a 85% - 90% kit built loco that you can't get any other way better than nothing at all?  The compatible finish standard argument is a good one, but again, should that be a strong deterrent. Many layouts have an overall standard of modelling that doesn't match the latest RTR locos and carriages, but that doesn't seem to matter.

 

I see this topic from a different direction. If you want to model a particular railway, location, period, etc. and suitable RTR models don't exist (and may never do) then building what you want from kits should be a major consideration. If you don't want to build it and can't afford to commission a professional to do it for you,  then the only option is to go and model something else.

[The Black Hat]

I don't understand why 'The Black Hat' is obsessing about the North Eastern Railway as he's a modern image modeller. Give over for goodness sake!

 

Am I not allowed to choose what I can like? I love a class 66, I also love a Q6! Engines doing similar work one decades after the other in the region I call home.

 

My interest spans more than one era and partly the reason for modelling the current scene is I can model the north east as it is today or has been recently. I don't want to model down South, and if there was a NER range of engines for the area, that I was happy with or wanted to pursue, then another small layout would soon be taking shape - but that's all my choice.

 

I'm proud of where I'm from, proud of my regional heritage and obviously a strong advocate that some engines up north where better than those down south. Sadly, they are often overlooked by those that ignore the achievements on the north - but mainly by those anxious to protect the view that more must be made to satisfy the flow of models that are aimed for the South.

Edited February 13, 2018 by The Black Hat

[PenrithBeacon]

... I don't want to model down South, and if there was a NER range of engines for the area, that I was happy with or wanted to pursue, then another small layout would soon be taking shape - but that's all my choice.

 

I'm proud of where I'm from, proud of my regional heritage and obviously a strong advocate that some engines up north where better than those down south. Sadly, they are often overlooked by those that ignore the achievements on the north - but mainly by those anxious to protect the view that more must be made to satisfy the flow of models that are aimed for the South.

I don't want to model the 'south' either but I don't go on and on at boring length about the CLC. There are lots of kits available of NER engines, just build one!

[BMacdermott]

Hello everyone

 

May I respectfully remind contributors that the title of this thread is: 

RTR North Eastern Railway Locomotives - A discussion.

 

I don't see kits mentioned there, so I consider them 'off topic' and a waste of my time reading postings about them. We are intelligent enough to know that kits exist.

 

Many thanks

 

Brian

[The Black Hat]

Hello everyone

 

May I respectfully remind contributors that the title of this thread is: 

RTR North Eastern Railway Locomotives - A discussion.

 

I don't see kits mentioned there, so I consider them 'off topic' and a waste of my time reading postings about them. We are intelligent enough to know that kits exist.

 

Many thanks

 

Brian

 

The problem is that so long as a kit exists for some that means that the option is there to get the model done and for some that's also a reason not to do an RTR version as the kit is there to be made and for them would be adequate.

 

However, as I was debating with Jol, the kit now can not always take all the new technology that needs to be put in, such as chips, speakers, wiring and lighting. They are built and designed for an analogue system and building a kit, to then convert it over to full digital light and sound operation, which you can get from RTR becomes costly. It often does not justify the expense when you consider that you might be looking for more than one of such a class and uniformity of finish compared to the other class mate and other RTR engines is an issue.

 

So that means that you return to looking for an RTR release, having discounted the kit option - but it should be discussed and should be accepted that in ways the kit option will not give you the same standard of engine, to run on a digital layout.

 

What then irks the likes of those modelling something like NE Region engines, is when we get told to build a kit to get the engine that we want and that RTR shouldn't be an option as the kit is available. Then some get the RTR model of something like an H2 Atlantic, which supersedes the kit that was previously the option to get the model and no one decries the fact that the RTR replaces the kit option. In fact its welcomed as progress.

[Jol Wilkinson]

I don't think anyone is advocating that, because a kit exists, the RTR manufacturers shouldn't produce the same model. From an LNWR point of view, the only two models available RTR have been available as kits from several suppliers for over forty years. 

 

What is being said is that kits cannot be fitted with DCC chips, which is clearly wrong, and therefore kits should be ignored. However, it becomes increasingly apparent that the majority of modellers aren't willing to build their own models despite claiming a considerable need for this or that prototype which isn't available RTR.

[Dick Turpin]

Hello everyone

 

May I respectfully remind contributors that the title of this thread is: 

RTR North Eastern Railway Locomotives - A discussion.

 

I don't see kits mentioned there, so I consider them 'off topic' and a waste of my time reading postings about them. We are intelligent enough to know that kits exist.

 

Many thanks

 

Brian

 

Yes Brian, thanks for banging the gavel there, we now have order, thanks. What I take the thread to be about is what type of RTR loco for the north east would best serve the market, whatever that is. Obviously anything that stimulates interest, promotes further interest in the hobby, and gets people modelling is going to benefit everybody concerned, whether that be building layouts, researching, buying more RTR or building kits is to be applauded. OK we do feel a bit left out lately, being as everybody else seems to have been catered for, but we are a lot of practically minded engineering types, who have traditionally got on and built stuff, but we would welcome some interest and input from the the major manufacturers, if just to keep the flag flying for northern area railway history and fire the imagination of younger members of the hobby so as to help ensure its future. So, to sum up, we need classes of North Eastern Railway design which not only served their area, but were seen further afield, like the B16 (yes indeed let's hear it for the B16s - roars of applauds, plus let's also remember the rebuilds by Gresley, wahaaay, and Thompson, hiss, boo!), the passenger classes like those magnificent Worsdell and Raven's Alantics, the 4-4-0 D17s and D20s, and not forgetting those coal hauling J21s, J25s and J27s and last but not least, those amazingly atmospheric steamy rag tag railcars  - Sentinel or Clayton, take your pick! Don't forget that this is meant to be a discussion, so if I've missed anything out, please do post and remind me. Most importantly,keep the debate going!!!!

[Bernard Lamb]

. What I take the thread to be about is what type of RTR loco for the north east would best serve the market, whatever that is. 

 

But that takes all the fun out of the topic. 

The answer has to be a J21.

Lots of them, went every where, hauled just about any sort of train.

If we concentrate on persuading the suppliers to introduce this machine then others should follow,

No need to get involve with the various detail differences. Two basic options as per the Hornby J15 would be enough to test the water.

Start with virtually any other class and the reaction could be less positive.

Bernard

[Mad McCann]

J21/J27.

 

I've said it often enough and there's a convincing case for either, Bernard.

 

I believe they share a common coupled wheelbase too so if this is true, one should be the gateway to the other. If either gets produced, get the hands in the pockets and buy them, as me and my fellow Scots modellers are in the process of doing with the long awaited C class (J36).

It's the only way we're going to get the big guys to produce more, folks so the minute the announcement comes, start filling that piggy bank!

 

D4

[Legend]

The sensible choice is a J21 , but I wonder if something more glamorous wouldn’t grab the attention and sales better. I’m not an expert but what was the 4-4-0 with double splashers . Maybe that would foot the bill in NER green, early LNER green, black .

 

But do t forget Scotland, the J36 is very welcome but only the start . That’s us only getting to where NE modellers got with the Q6

[Dick Turpin]

 what was the 4-4-0 with double splashers . Maybe that would foot the bill in NER green, early LNER green, black .

 

But do t forget Scotland, the J36 is very welcome but only the start . That’s us only getting to where NE modellers got with the Q6

 

4-4 0 with double splashers, probably a D17, (NER M & Q), or D20 (no idea of the NER class), agree about the look, with NER livery with plenty of polished brasswork. Also, let us not forget that if you model Newcastle and the north - northern counties/borders, a J36 would have been a common sight, so a result there already!

[Les1952]

"likely to come in time". A mantra for the RTR modeller and an excuse for not getting stuck in and making the models you so desperately want?

 

Surely this topic illustrates the changes in this hobby in the last decade or two. Improvements in the perceived quality of RTR (see Wright Writes for Tony' experiences on his Loco Clinic at shows), social media providing a platform for protracted wishlists, frothing and rational theses on what manufacturers should produce and the mainstream modelling print media increasingly and extensively focusing on RTR products in their news and reviews sections. Has pounding the keyboard taken over from making models on the workbench?

 

I have a number of friends and acquaintances who model the NER, MR, GNR, LNWR, NSR, GER and other pre group railways. While they are not averse to using and modifying RTR items, they don't allow their modelling aspirations to be limited by what the RTR manufacturers decide to produce. Some have even gone so far as to design etched and 3D products to provide what they want. We are well provided with a good, although not totally exhaustive, selection of kits for pre grouping models (both etched and cast w/m) including many of the locos listed in this topic.

 

So perhaps the answer lies in people's own hands, rather than relying on the RTR manufacturers and hoping they will produce what you want. Judging by RTR new release and product development times, I still think it would be ten years before you got two or three new NER locos. And without doubt, that would only satisfy a few wish listers. Or is it better to travel seated comfortably in possibly forlorn hope, rather than arrive with a bit of a struggle?

 

As someone who is dyspraxic (brain doesn't recognise right-angles or parallels) and suffers from repetitive strain injury there are only three ways I can get the locos I want-

 

1.  buy them r-t-r.

2.  PAY someone to build a kit for me

3.  pick one from someone else's kitbuilt collection up secondhand.

 

Option 2 then means for a kit I will end up paying about £250 more than someone who is able to build a kit for themselves, more if I get it painted and lined- fortunately repainting and renumbering locos I can make a decent fist at.

Option 3 often means buying someone else's problem child.  GOOD secondhand kit built locos atre rare and often prohibitively expensive.

 

I do have a number of kitbuilt locos in my collection- but not built by me. I want my locos in whatever scale to work for their living.

 

I'm a North-Eastener by birth and would remind folks that as the last steam from the Southern was being dragged off to the scrap heap PRE-GROUPING locos were still earning their keep in the North East.  We have one of these types R-t-R in OO (Q6) and the other in N (J27), but not both in both scales.

 

As an afterthought I'll just remind folks from the Southern of the number of the last steam loco to finish work on their region.   77014 (a Standard 3MT new to the North Eastern Region for Stainmore line duties - another "NER" type not available r-t-r!)

 

Les

[Les1952]

I don't think anyone is advocating that, because a kit exists, the RTR manufacturers shouldn't produce the same model. From an LNWR point of view, the only two models available RTR have been available as kits from several suppliers for over forty years. 

 

What is being said is that kits cannot be fitted with DCC chips, which is clearly wrong, and therefore kits should be ignored. However, it becomes increasingly apparent that the majority of modellers aren't willing to build their own models despite claiming a considerable need for this or that prototype which isn't available RTR.

 

I'm currently trying to find a way to put a chip into a Backwoods Miniatures Doxford Crane Tank- wheelbase shorter than its gauge, completely open cab, no bunker,  and crane mechanism full of motor with no spare space.  Decoder sixes are coming down but still need a couple more millimetres to come off before one will go in this, I think.   Cab side sheets in this view are one side only.  Other side and back are completely open

 

 

Length over body 50mm, boiler diameter just over 10mm.  Longest hidden accessible space available 11mm between frames under cab but already containing wires.  Similar space at other end can't be threaded to past gearbox.....

 

Les

Edited February 13, 2018 by Les1952

[PenrithBeacon]

How well did Hornby’s Q6 sell?

 

I ask the question because it might be a good indicator of whether Hornby would produce another NER model

[Porcy Mane]

Length over body 50mm, boiler diameter just over 10mm.  Longest hidden accessible space available 11mm between frames under cab but already containing wires.  Similar space at other end can't be threaded to past gearbox.....

 Not made any easier by the fact the kit was mistakenly made to 3.5 mm / foot scale. 

 

 

How well did Hornby’s Q6 sell?

 

I ask the question because it might be a good indicator of whether Hornby would produce another NER model

 

You mean how well is Hornby's Q6 selling. It's still current

 

http://www.hattons.co.uk/stocklist/SiteResults.aspx?searchfield=Q6

 

Available for less that £90 at some places apparently.

[Steamport Southport]

 

 

I'm a North-Eastener by birth and would remind folks that as the last steam from the Southern was being dragged off to the scrap heap PRE-GROUPING locos were still earning their keep in the North East.  We have one of these types R-t-R in OO (Q6) and the other in N (J27), but not both in both scales.

 

As an afterthought I'll just remind folks from the Southern of the number of the last steam loco to finish work on their region.   77014 (a Standard 3MT new to the North Eastern Region for Stainmore line duties - another "NER" type not available r-t-r!)

 

Les

 

 

I've seen some anti Southern bias/nonsense in this thread and others. But lets get a few facts correct. Not aimed at anyone in particular.

 

 

When the Southern Region ended with steam they were still pulling express passenger trains at about 100 MPH and competing favourably with the electrics and diesels, not toddling around with a few coal wagons like the NER locomotives were. How many NER designed locomotives could pull heavily laden boat trains at express speed?

 

 

NER steam lasted until September 1967. A whole two months after SR steam. Wow! That's a big difference. #sarcasm

 

There were also pre grouping SR locomotives pulling trains right up until 1966 and 1967. LSWR O2s on the IOW for example. As well as SECR moguls and LSWR S15s.

 

 

As for the BR 3MTs they were a Riddles design based on a design dating back to Churchward on the GWR. They were even built in Swindon. They were pure GWR/LMS. Absolutely nothing to do with the NER.

 

 

 

But I'll ask a question. What does constantly knocking the Southern have to do with asking for a North Eastern model?  Apart from making NER fans look a bit bitter. Why not sell your own company/region in a positive light rather than moan about another one? You'll probably get better results.

 

 

I'm not even that much of a Southern fan BTW. I'm from an area that had the first proper railway and which had the last standard gauge steam hauled trains on BR. But I like all railways and locomotives. Even those things on the wrong side of the Pennines.

 

 

 

Jason

[Bernard Lamb]

J21/J27.

 

I've said it often enough and there's a convincing case for either, Bernard.

 

I believe they share a common coupled wheelbase too so if this is true, one should be the gateway to the other. If either gets produced, get the hands in the pockets and buy them, as me and my fellow Scots modellers are in the process of doing with the long awaited C class (J36).

It's the only way we're going to get the big guys to produce more, folks so the minute the announcement comes, start filling that piggy bank!

 

D4

 

But the J27 is limited to freight.

However that did not stop the Q6. I do find that to be an odd choice.

We gave you a north eastern loco and you did not buy enough of them to make us consider bringing out another. I can read their mind.

However I think the J36 might reach parts that other machines would not reach and it will probably back up what I am saying about the J21.

I agree about stuffing the piggy. I did that in respect of the J15.

Bernard

[melmoth]

I'm currently trying to find a way to put a chip into a Backwoods Miniatures Doxford Crane Tank- wheelbase shorter than its gauge, completely open cab, no bunker,  and crane mechanism full of motor with no spare space.  Decoder sixes are coming down but still need a couple more millimetres to come off before one will go in this, I think.   Cab side sheets in this view are one side only.  Other side and back are completely open

 

 

I think that the fact we have reached a stage with DCC that you can even begin to contemplate chipping such a small model amply bears out Jol's comment:

 

"What is being said is that kits cannot be fitted with DCC chips, which is clearly wrong,"

[PenrithBeacon]

Not made any easier by the fact the kit was mistakenly made to 3.5 mm / foot scale.

 

 

 

You mean how well is Hornby's Q6 selling. It's still current

 

http://www.hattons.co.uk/stocklist/SiteResults.aspx?searchfield=Q6

 

Available for less that £90 at some places apparently.

Sorry I could have phrased that better.

 

But the current heavy discounting must mean that it hasn't done too well and this for a very highly regarded design. Perhaps crowd funding a small 0-6-0 tender engine might be the way forward but that assumes that there is a way forward. Certainly if the Q6 can't succeed then there isn't much chance of any more from Hornby

[Legend]

Sorry I could have phrased that better.

But the current heavy discounting must mean that it hasn't done too well and this for a very highly regarded design. Perhaps crowd funding a small 0-6-0 tender engine might be the way forward but that assumes that there is a way forward. Certainly if the Q6 can't succeed then there isn't much chance of any more from Hornby

I really don’t think you can assume anything from the Q6. We don’t know how many Hornby made. It did date from their overproduction period . There are or were Similar deals on Drummond 700s and S15s and J15s. I don’t think you can glean how popular a region is by that.

[Compound2632]

When the Southern Region ended with steam they were still pulling express passenger trains at about 100 MPH and competing favourably with the electrics and diesels, not toddling around with a few coal wagons like the NER locomotives were. How many NER designed locomotives could pull heavily laden boat trains at express speed?

 

Well, whether one prefers express trains at speed or slow, heavy mineral haulage ('toddling around with a few coal wagons'?), or neither, is very much a matter of taste. Also, it has to be pointed out is that the comparison you are drawing is between locomotives built just over 20 years before the end of steam - and rebuilt more recently than that - and locomotives built at least 45 years before the end of steam, in many cases much older still. Each has its charm. 

 

But to answer your last point, the North Eastern Railway had some of the fastest booked average speeds for express passenger trains in the period running up to the Great War. Those Worsdell and Raven atlantics, along with the big R1 4-4-0s, were evidently masters of the hard tasks they were assigned. looking further back, the Class J singles were one of only two classes recorded as reaching 90 mph before the end of the 19th century* and the preserved Class M 4-4-0 No. 1621 was a star of the 1895 race to the north, covering York to Newcastle at an average speed of over 60 mph.

 

*The other being the Midland 115 Class single No. 117. As a Midland enthusiast I have to point out that this speed was recorded on a normal service run, including 13 continuous miles at over 80 mph, whereas the Class J No. 1517 's 90 mph was as part of a series of tests of the class when new - in their original condition as Worsdell-von Borries two-cylinder compounds. [Ref. Nock, Speed Records on Britain's Railways, post edited to give correct information.]

Edited February 14, 2018 by Compound2632