Harton Colliery P4 Plank Planning (WAS: Ideas/Plans for a P4 plank)

[Kelly]

Some of you might have seen the topic following the progress of the Eversley layout. I've decided to halt on that now it has a track plan I'm happy with. Why? I need I feel to do a bit of experimentation for a small plank layout first (as suggested elsewhere). The initial suggestion of this to some extent killed my mojo for carrying on a bit, but it wasn't the intended outcome I'm sure (more likely other factors combined with it to deflate my mood over the Christmas period).

 

So I am looking at some simple, but workable plans to fiddle with (in Templot). I have something like 3ftx1ft6" or 6ftx1ft6" depending on how many boards I use (I got 2x 3ft1ft6" boards plus a few 3ft2ft boards for the Eversley project, but I may well use 3ftx2ft boards for that and use the 2 3ft1ft6" boards for a plank).

 

Any suggestions? I expect some kind of inglenook will be a probable outcome.

Edited March 18, 2018 by Kelly

[Spitfire2865]

I have a n abandoned inglenook layout which I rather like the trackplan of.  

It was slightly shortened for a 4' length but would be perfect as 6'.  Second link in my signature.

An Inglenook often gives good play value but can lock you into a rather unprototypical setup.  Mix it up with some aspects un-inglenook-ey and have a reason why it must be operated as such without looking the part.  

Edited January 16, 2018 by Spitfire2865

[Kelly]

Originally Eversley grew from a P4 version of Drewery Lane (which inspired the track plan, which then grew a bit to allow 4 car units, and was altered to be closer to the layout of the real location at Shepperton (but condensed)).

 

Part of the requirement for this shelf is to be able to properly test my point building skills with various stock. Being P4 means it likely needs a bit more length/room I expect (hence the 6ft (plus fiddle yard/cassette) option, I expect 4ft might be too small for this thinking).

 

Having looked at your link Spitfire, I have come across it before I think on my browsing of the forum. It looks a nice simple plan. It could work being adapted to 6ft space and P4, though I expect I'd omit the slip to make it simpler initially.

Edited January 16, 2018 by Kelly

[Kelly]

Now I'm back home again and have updated Templot I can share the plan I'd originally come up with, which I'm unsure on atm.

 

 

The top would be a platform for a 2 car EMU/DEMU, with run around for loco use. The other side of the run round would be part of the fiddle yard. It is simple enough to work, though I'm wondering if I can redraw something that keeps the storage within the 6ftx1ft6" size of boards to avoid needing an extra cassette board.

test_plank_2017_10_12_2033_02.box

Edited January 21, 2018 by Kelly

[Kelly]

The other idea was the 5ft extension I drew up for Eversley Road when thinking about what that layout could become over time (as part of the planning to work out where it would possibly be best to have the double tracks reaching the board edge etc).

 

 

This was drawn initially as a flask terminal (nuclear). It could be rationalised and altered I expect to be a bit simpler for a test plank (first forays into P4 track building being the main goal here).

Flask Terminal V1.0.0.0.box

[Kelly]

A bit of a rethink has occurred since I started this thread. Natalie suggested looking at Harton Collery.

 

So a simple plan based on HArton High Staithes has been drawn in Templot.

 

 

It still needs some refinement and some elements might change. Expected stock is Harton electric 0-4-0 (Judith Edge kit) and possibly 0-6-0DH and Bo-Bo electric (again both available from Judith Edge). Wagon stock will be mostly hoppers, though I'm not sure what hoppers they'd be (at this point I don't know a great deal about this system, but Natalie has always liked it...).

Harton High Staithes - P4.box

[PaulCheffus]

A bit of a rethink has occurred since I started this thread. Natalie suggested looking at Harton Collery.

 

So a simple plan based on HArton High Staithes has been drawn in Templot.

 

harton_high_staithes_-_p4.gif

 

It still needs some refinement and some elements might change. Expected stock is Harton electric 0-4-0 (Judith Edge kit) and possibly 0-6-0DH and Bo-Bo electric (again both available from Judith Edge). Wagon stock will be mostly hoppers, though I'm not sure what hoppers they'd be (at this point I don't know a great deal about this system, but Natalie has always liked it...).

Hi

 

I’d been looking at this as a potential EM gauge layout. Dave Bradwell does a 21T NCB hopper that is similar to the older type used on the Harton system. I haven’t found anything like the later hoppers though the BR 21T HTO look similar.

 

It’s also worth getting hold of this book

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Electric-Railway-Oakwood-Library-History/dp/0853614571

 

There’s also a few videos on YouTube

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TmvauZVZFRw

 

 

Cheers

 

Paul

Edited March 18, 2018 by PaulCheffus

[Kelly]

Hi

 

I’d been looking at this as a potential EM gauge layout. Dave Bradwell does a 21T NCB hopper that is similar to the older type used on the Harton system. I haven’t found anything like the later hoppers though the BR 21T HTO look similar.

 

It’s also worth getting hold of this book

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Electric-Railway-Oakwood-Library-History/dp/0853614571

 

There’s also a few videos on YouTube

 

 

Cheers

 

Paul

 

Paul,

 

It is an interesting system. Natalie has a copy of that book, that I based the plan on loosely, it was originally two lots of staithes, but in 6ft and P4 it just wouldn't fit, so the later plan (arouind 1955 iirc) fits better.

 

I'd just been looking at the various wagons available. The Dave Bradwell 21t hopper is probably the best one, and the BR Parkside one (rivet/welded) could possibly be adapted too. Natalie is going to do some research about the area to see if mineral wagons or drops would be used (the uppermost siding is potentially going to be a small coal yard for the local area).

[Mark Saunders]

A number of the wagon types that were at Westoe (Harton) are preserved​ still extant with a number at Tanfield.

 

There is an original bodied Charles Roberts, original bodied Standard Wagon, Seaham rebuilt in timber and the rebodied ones that resemble the BR ones!

 

There are also 13 ton and 16 ton ones at Tanfield! The 13 ton ones are almost identical to the BR ones wit slightly different stanchions and double brakes.

 

Mark Saunders

[Kelly]

A number of the wagon types that were at Westoe (Harton) are preserved​ still extant with a number at Tanfield.

 

There is an original bodied Charles Roberts, original bodied Standard Wagon, Seaham rebuilt in timber and the rebodied ones that resemble the BR ones!

 

There are also 13 ton and 16 ton ones at Tanfield! The 13 ton ones are almost identical to the BR ones wit slightly different stanchions and double brakes.

 

Mark Saunders

I came across some of those when I started looking at the system to find out more information. Natalie also played some YouTube videos whilst at mine, when we discussed the plans for the layout.

 

The wagons used on the westoe part (it being a collection of parts linking several collieries to the br network and the Tyne, including lower staithes (gravity worked), high staithes (hopper discharge to sea with a height restricted bridge before entrance limiting stock). The layout plan is based on the high staithes due to the simple nature compared to the others and only having a small space available.

 

The period is also defined by the pantographs on the locos, before 1955?, As before that they had double arm bow collectors.

 

I was initially thinking that the parkside br 21t hopper should be suitable to start with with some alterations. The harton electric book has plans. Suspect we're going to focus on 1955-60 roughly, so further research of what got to high staithes is needed. Not sure if the 13t and 16t did?

[Mark Saunders]

The 13 and 16 ton hoppers were not used at Harton as they had 21 ton wagons built new by both Hurst Nelson and Charles Roberts.

 

The NCB hoppers are more closely related to the LMS Coke hoppers as they had monkey tail doors between the headstock and axle!

 

Mark Saunders

[Kelly]

Nothing much has happened with this due to lack of time and illhealth. I am however looking at finishing off the templot plan and getting some trackwork started soon hopefully. Slow building of stock has commenced with some hoppers starting to take shape.

[Kelly]

Once again nothing much has happened, due to a combination of time, not being at home and health again.

 

The templot plan is 90% done, but I still need to give it a bit more thought and before anything else occurs, I need to sit down and have a stab at building some points etc.

 

I picked up some more Hopper kits at Warley (the Slater's ones), these might not technically be correct for the probable time frame, but will add a little extra wagon interest. I also picked up some etches from Dave Bradwell at Scaleforum to convert/upgrade the old Dapol hoppers I have. Still yet to make a proper start on the Judith Edge 0-4-0WE kit, though I did pick up a High Level gearbox kit for it at Scaleforum.

 

Just haven't had the time since to do much due to the planning for the Warley show (DEMU stand), working on an issue of DEMU's UPDate and the Christmas/New Year period being away.

 

I have however finally got a clear desk in a corner of my flat that can be used for working on modelling projects (and jewellery projects), and got a portable spray booth for Christmas to compliment the airbrush/compressor I already have (I also got a Pull-Push set (H class plus maunsell coaches) and a set of Birdcage coaches for the other layout plan).

[Kelly]

Been working slowly on stock for this, with 2 Slater's NER/LNER 20t hoppers taking shape. Need to decide on a sprining system, as I think they'll be needed for the use of those potentially.

As my flat is currently feeling too cold to do much modelling, I've yet to make a start on building points/track, but I have been thinking about some tweaks to the plan, when I get chance I'll update the templot file and upload here.

One change will be to rotate the 3ftx2ft fiddle yard board 90 degrees, to eliminate the need to curve round for storage and give a little extra length for gradients (one line will be going down to docks level, the teeming shed line up to a higher level slightly and a coal drop siding). There is possibly going to be a small bit of trackwork on the 'dock/tyne' board, but yet to decide fully.

[Kelly]

It has been a while since I last updated this topic, however, some work has been commencing on it in the intervening time period.

 

Over the weekend, Natalie and myself finally got a chance to get some boards and templates out and come up with a workable track plan for the Harton inspired layout we've been working on for the past year or so.
I've drawn the plan up roughly in templot (see attached), it needs some refinement and I'm awaiting Natalie getting back to me with her thoughts of the translation of her track drawing to templot in P4. The gap on the plan is due to how templot draws the tandem point  as partial templates, hence they don't show up in the sketchboard drawings. The attached also show two variations for discussion with Natalie, one with an A5 base tandem, and the other with a B7 based tandem (probably better, but unsure on the access to the cassettes part as yet).

On the left is a viaduct, which will have a small section of the tyneside electric on it, a 2EPB unit will shuttle back and forth on this, and possibly E68000 too. On the right is a short dock line, which will be shunting wagons around, with a wagon turntable giving the harton system access to the dock lines for access to pick up spilled coal from the staithes into flat wagons.The main part of the layout is run round, arrival, departure roads, with a spur for a landsale depot and behind a small wagon works.Stock will mostly be Judith Edge 0-4-0WE kits of No. 2 and 10, and Bo-Bo No. 13-15 Judith Edge kits, with possibly a diesel shunter as well of some kind as well as the aforementioned EPB stock.

[Kelly]

I realised I haven't updated this thread in quite a while. The project hasn't been forgotten about.

 

However, it is on hiatus, in part due to the pandemic, but more due to a house move and uncertainties about a layout being stored. So until the space has been sorted for it, I will likely have to redo the entire plan again to fit a smaller place. I suspect the viaduct will go as will some of the width perhaps. We'll see!

[Kelly]

With the combination of Covid and moving in with my partner along with breaking my ankle and leg this year, all layout plans are effectively dead at present.

When the moving is all settled and I know how much realistic space I have, I'll revisit this layout idea and probably reduce it in size considerably.

The other plan Eversley Road southern region layout that we'd been planning is pretty much dead and won't go any further now, at least for now. It might reappear in the future, but I think it will be straight rather than an L like the last plans showed.

The focus if anything gets built will be on the Harton layout, but I have no idea when work might start as I currently cannot access most of the model railway items (they're either still at my flat or inaccessible without assistance due to my reliance on crutches at present).

[Kelly]

I've made the first draft of the revised track plan, now shorter and simpler. It is still undecided if the viaduct will go across or how it will. The arrangements of track might well change once I get feedback from Natalie.