Aggregate Trains 1970s

[Calimero]

Does anyone know what wagons were used on aggregate trains during the 1970s, were PGAs in use then (I believe first variants were built mid 70s)?

 

Trying to find pictures of aggregate workings on the Southern region 1970-early 1980 (81-82 at a push).

 

From what I've found so far, which is minimal, MSVs maybe the staple wagons but I'm sure in an old book I saw PGAs behind blue 47s?

 

Thank you for your help and assitance in advance.

[Fat Controller]

In the beginning, around the very early 1970s, unbraked Iron Ore tipplers were used, sometimes with a fitted head and tail of 16t Minfits: the latter often had 3/4 painted in large characters on the side panels, to remind groundstaff not to fill them to the top. The trains often had a brake-van at each end, to avoid the need for a double run-round.  Over time, more and more Tipplers were fitted, and eventually all the tippler trains became fully fitted. A lot of the terminals used by tipplers were short-term ones in conjunction with large construction projects. Fareham is one that comes to mind, though it's still in service 40+ years latter.

At the same time, large numbers of HTV 21t hoppers went over to stone traffic, supplemented by unfitted 21t hoppers, which received vac-gear at Barton Hill or Swindon. There were also some 24.5t hoppers in use. A major flow for these were the M23 and M25 contracts.

In 1971/2, the first of the PGA hoppers arrived: these were linked to Section 8 grants, and initially dedicated to certain 'long-term' flows.

If you want to see a lot of photos of these early days, have a look for the following three books, published by Ian Allen:

'Heyday of the Hydraulics'

'Heyday of the Warships'

'Heyday of the Westerns'

Of course, only the Westerns had air-brakes, allowing them to haul PGAs.

[Rivercider]

Which part of the Southern Region are you looking at?

 

Here is a blue 47 in 1980

47027 passing Salisbury with Foster Yeoman PGAs 23/4/80

 

cheers

[Calimero]

Which part of the Southern Region are you looking at?

 

Here is a blue 47 in 1980

scan0020.jpg

47027 passing Salisbury with Foster Yeoman PGAs 23/4/80

 

cheers

Anywhere on the Southern, for inspiration and working into a plan.

[Fat Controller]

B

 

Which part of the Southern Region are you looking at?

 

Here is a blue 47 in 1980

scan0020.jpg

47027 passing Salisbury with Foster Yeoman PGAs 23/4/80

 

cheers

Botley-bound?

[Rivercider]

Anywhere on the Southern, for inspiration and working into a plan.

 

B

 

Botley-bound?

Could be, my notes do not say.

Other terminals that handled PGAs included Eastleigh, Allington (near Maidstone), Ardingly (?), and Ashford. Also Hothfield,

though when they each started was before my first involvement,

 

cheers

[Mark Saunders]

Plenty of the recently rebodied HTV's were also in use along with MSV's and the recently rebodied MTV's!

 

Mark Saunders

[Steadfast]

Could be, my notes do not say.

Other terminals that handled PGAs included Eastleigh, Allington (near Maidstone), Ardingly (?), and Ashford. Also Hothfield,

though when they each started was before my first involvement,

 

cheers

 

I'd think Eastleigh or Botley, they're both Merehead (Yeoman/ AI) served and routed via Warminster. The other locations are served via Acton from Whatley (ARC/Hanson).

 

Jo

[Rivercider]

In the Foster Yeoman booklet 'The Rail Story' there is a photo of D1057 Western Chieftain with a train of PGAs at Longcross

in an off-loading siding used in construction of the M3, dated August 1972,

 

cheers

[eastwestdivide]

I regularly saw the Allington (near Maidstone, Kent) to Westbury area empties from about 1977 onwards, first with the rebodied 25T HTVs (B340xxx series) and then the various ARC/Amey Roadstone PGAs. Motive power varied over that period from double-headed 33s (mostly Eastleigh ones) to WR 47s (mostly Bristol-based), back to 2x33s and then 56s from about 1984. Photos of mine in various places on RMWeb if you search Allington, or should I post the collection here? I could also trawl through some notebooks for wagon formations/locos at different dates.

 

Also a train of Tarmac PGAs served Hothfield near Ashford, always a 47 when I occasionally saw it in the early 80s.

 

Edited for clarity, and to add:

 

I've also got a photo of a blue 47 on Redland PGAs at Tonbridge in 1983. It's stationary on the down fast line, but with the loco at the west (London/Tonbridge yard) end. No idea of the working.

Edited January 18, 2018 by eastwestdivide

[Steadfast]

Indeed there is - I'd forgotten the short term locations for M3, M25 construction etc.

I hadn't realised some of the London and South East area trains (like Allington) used to head back to Westbury and the quarries via the Southern. That's me educated, after seeing a picture of ARC PGAs running through Woking from Allington to Whatley

 

Jo

Edited January 18, 2018 by Steadfast

[Nearholmer]

The other flows to remember are the marine aggregates that came via the Thames Estuary, Brett and Marinex being the two firms IIRC.

 

I seem to remember them being early users of long bogie hoppers, with quite narrow openings along the top.

 

Found a bit about it here https://www.kentrail.org.uk/Cliffe%20Gravel%20Works.htm

 

And, Mr Bartlett provides pictures of the wagons http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brettaggregate

 

I’m sure they had a much sexier livery when new, but I can’t for the life of me recall what it was!

 

Hold on, yes I can: pale cream/grey overall; vertical parts of sides, and a matching band round the ends in French blue; ‘Marinex gravel’ in bold white/cream lettering, plus I think some sort of logo, along each side.

Edited January 18, 2018 by Nearholmer

[eastwestdivide]

How could I forget Brett and Marinex/Murphy Aggregates (the name changed at some point). I've also posted a few pics of those trains in other threads on here.

Late 70s, they were typically 8 x 100T wagons and a single 33 or 73 loco, but in the 80s, workings started with more hoppers and 2x33s.

[Andy Kirkham]

A few from Westbury, some with only a glimpse of the wagons. I'm not up on wagon designations, but some stone was carried in coal hoppers which were sometimes labelled "House Coal Concentration". The first time I visited Westbury as a young spotter and saw all those wagons labelled "Yeoman", my first thought was that it was bulk traffic in powdered mashed potato.

 

MAY 72 04. 820 Grenville leaves Westbury, May 11 1972 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

 

MAY 72 ??. 821 Greyhound arrives at Westbury, May 11 1972 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

 

MAY 72 ?? 805 Benbow and 832 Onslaught at Westbury, May 11 1972 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

 

APR 73 10. 1038 Western Sovereign and 1555 at Westbury, March or April 1973 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

 

FEB 74 34, D1036 Western Emperor with the 14:25 Merehead-Westbury near Westbury, September(?) 1973 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

[D826]

Andy

 

Superb images, simply superb - thanks for posting. Not far from here , I used to have my eyes turned to look out the back of my Dads MG1300 as we passed Merehead heading west on holiday to Dawlish. Used to be a hotbed for hydraulics.

 

Cheers

 

Matt W

[Andy Kirkham]

Andy

 

Superb images, simply superb - thanks for posting. Not far from here , I used to have my eyes turned to look out the back of my Dads MG1300 as we passed Merehead heading west on holiday to Dawlish. Used to be a hotbed for hydraulics.

 

Cheers

 

Matt W

Thanks Matt, glad you enjoyed them.

[Caradoc Rd]

Hi Andy,

 

I have to echo the comment "superb".

 

I was hanging around Westbury at the time you were photographing so look out for the brown haired 8 year old getting in your photos at that time...

 

Thank you for posting these, they have brought back some very, very special memories of times with my Dad....stuffed porked roll sandwiches, anyone?

 

Jonathan

[Fat Controller]

A few from Westbury, some with only a glimpse of the wagons. I'm not up on wagon designations, but some stone was carried in coal hoppers which were sometimes labelled "House Coal Concentration". The first time I visited Westbury as a young spotter and saw all those wagons labelled "Yeoman", my first thought was that it was bulk traffic in powdered mashed potato.

 

MAY 72 04. 820 Grenville leaves Westbury, May 11 1972 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

 

MAY 72 ??. 821 Greyhound arrives at Westbury, May 11 1972 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

 

The first photo seems to show 24.5t hoppers as a block train. Note how relatively low the load sits in relation to the wagon height.

The second shows some 24.5t hoppers in a mixed formation with 21t ones.

Thanks for posting these photos, Andy.

[SED Freightman]

 

I've also got a photo of a blue 47 on Redland PGAs at Tonbridge in 1983. It's stationary on the down fast line, but with the loco at the west (London/Tonbridge yard) end. No idea of the working.

 

That will be a Mountsorrel to Bat & Ball Redland Sdg service waiting for a path north after running round in the West Yard and pushing out onto the Down Fast.

[SED Freightman]

Andy,

 

Thanks for posting the Westbury photos.  My father also took me to Westbury a few times in the mid 1970's whilst travelling around on Southern Rover tickets.  Although our trips were too late to see any Warships I remember being treated to pork pies and tea from the station buffet whilst watching the shunting and stone trains passing through and waiting for the DEMU back to Salisbury.

[jonhall]

MTV's on the chassis of class B tank wagons from 1975 http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/mtvzander

 

Jon

[Jim]

Would there have been weighbrigdes when emptying open wagons with a grab?

Jim

[SED Freightman]

Would there have been weighbrigdes when emptying open wagons with a grab?

Jim

 

Generally there would not be a rail weighbridge at the receiving terminal.  In the early days of bulk aggregate movements the receiving terminal would usually be owned / operated by the same company as the loading quarry, so it would suffice to weight the product by obtaining the tare and loaded wagon weights at the loading point, this information also being needed by the railway for charging and operational purposes.  Aggregate would have been weighed out of the receiving terminal by means of a road weighbridge as again the actual weights would be needed for charging and stock control purposes as well as ensuring lorries were not overloaded.

[ess1uk]

Some great info and photos

[Jim]

Generally there would not be a rail weighbridge at the receiving terminal.  In the early days of bulk aggregate movements the receiving terminal would usually be owned / operated by the same company as the loading quarry, so it would suffice to weight the product by obtaining the tare and loaded wagon weights at the loading point, this information also being needed by the railway for charging and operational purposes.  Aggregate would have been weighed out of the receiving terminal by means of a road weighbridge as again the actual weights would be needed for charging and stock control purposes as well as ensuring lorries were not overloaded.

Cheers, that makes sense.

Jim