Possible US small (it started out very small but is turning into medium size) HO project

[F-UnitMad]

Interesting plan, with an operational Wye.

 

Passenger stock will certainly make a difference to "JAAL" - Just Another American Layout" ( blame Ray for that one; I think that designation could stick!! ) I remember Chris Gilbert saying what a difference it made in terms of audience, both how many people stopped to watch, & how long they watched for, having passenger stock on one of his layouts at Warley a few years back.

[newbryford]

Not madness at all, Mick ... although it's actually a GP40-2

ith

 

I know. Just can't get used to the -2, dash 7 etc..

I can cope with 37/4 though

 

Cheers

Mick

[PaulRhB]

Dash 2 usually means a minor mod to an EMD loco like the electrics, electronics etc. The higher Dash-8 or 9 were the GE designations for groups of locos, bit like Peugot 107, 207, 307 moving onto 208, 308 etc, starting with the dash-7 series and progressing as the basic design was upgraded through  8 and 9, then there were all the sub groups by wheel arrangement and power.

Edited February 24, 2018 by PaulRhB

[long island jack]

Interesting plan, with an operational Wye.

 

Passenger stock will certainly make a difference to "JAAL" - Just Another American Layout" ( blame Ray for that one; I think that designation could stick!! ) I remember Chris Gilbert saying what a difference it made in terms of audience, both how many people stopped to watch, & how long they watched for, having passenger stock on one of his layouts at Warley a few years back.

Go on blame me, won't you!!

[F-UnitMad]

Go on blame me, won't you!!

I did!!

[jjb1970]

Dash 2 usually means a minor mod to an EMD loco like the electrics, electronics etc. The higher Dash-8 or 9 were the GE designations for groups of locos, bit like Peugot 107, 207, 307 moving onto 208, 308 etc, starting with the dash-7 series and progressing as the basic design was upgraded through  8 and 9, then there were all the sub groups by wheel arrangement and power.

 

In the case of the SD40 it was a bit more than a minor mod. The new HT-C bogies required longer frames which meant the -2 was very noticeably longer, and the new control system was a major upgrade. So while it was clearly an evolutionary development of the SD40 and SD40X I think it was a bit more than a minor mod.

[jjb1970]

I think part of it is a lot KCS's network is their subsidiary KCS de Mexico and many observers either don't count Mexico as part of the US rail network or forget it exists completely. Which is unfortunate since there is a lot of rail traffic across the southern border, including automotive and intermodal.  

 

I sometimes wonder at quite why KCS has such a low profile. As you say it doesn't help that many of their operations are south of the border, and from an enthusiast perspective their grey livery wasn't the most inspired look but nevertheless it is a big railway company with a lot of trains.

[PaulRhB]

In the case of the SD40 it was a bit more than a minor mod. The new HT-C bogies required longer frames which meant the -2 was very noticeably longer, and the new control system was a major upgrade. So while it was clearly an evolutionary development of the SD40 and SD40X I think it was a bit more than a minor mod.

I was meaning more a relatively minor mod to an existing class than a new loco group. I'd group the different frames, snoot noses, tunnel motors etc as minor class mods as they are still classed by EMD as the same series. Much the same as the huge variety of DC and AC, CO, A-1-A variants of the current locos. When they drop in a new power unit as a mod they tend to create it as a new class even though it shares just as much of the basic loco. It's only me trying to simplify the definitions because all the dashes seem a bit confusing when two different makers use such a similar system

There are good indexes to all the prefixes and suffixes ES, Eco, SD, GP, X, T etc on Wikipedia.

[Regularity]

The EMD -2 has quite a bit going on internally, in terms of modularised control boards, pressurised compartments, more so-histicted control circuits, but these are largely not very visible - on a GP38, we are talking about different fittings for the battery box covers and a sight glass on the body.

They were refinements/improvements even upgrades/modifications to existing designs, rather than new models, but I think from an operational point of view they were slightly more than minor mods.

There have even been a few re-builds/refurbishments to upgrade earlier models.

[jjb1970]

Control systems tend to be invisible to most people not directly involved with them despite their criticality a process and the expense and difficulties of upgrading or replacing them. Upgrading a prime mover for example from electro-mechanical control to full electronic control is a huge change but is invisible to most.

 

EMD nomenclature seems to have been completely altered at the 70 series. The SD70 series includes various versions of the V16 710 two stroke engine, the V12 1010 four stroke engine and both AC and DC transmission. At least three different cabs, a narrow gauge version with 4 bobo trucks etc. So whereas previously model monkeys were quite tightly defined the SD70 is effectively a whole family of designs at a similar power point

[newbryford]

Interesting plan, with an operational Wye.

 

Passenger stock will certainly make a difference to "JAAL" - Just Another American Layout" ( blame Ray for that one; I think that designation could stick!! ) I remember Chris 

 

I seem to have acquired suitable motive power for my bi-level set.

 

Who needs long trains?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/62107343@N04/14375049453/in/photolist-nUgToe-e6HFAy-iboKBo-7QdUPW-dMdCUz-e6BZZB-n7tXHF-kQH51B-VkHYbk-r9Tvrm-pqpS9u-oDZZP6-pJPQgm-d2mJMj-22Xp5qN-8Uwwzw-PtDWVU-fvEkWq-ncvPeC-deqtmd-dQv9zX-wenZDb-qkn2Uf-dFygyS-9rEq3h-UdVK9c-bsmdhF-SDPSe3-e99pGY-bVM8LE-dMpnYf-g3CdV-qoieKe-ceVBTq-5SC5Tw-ceufUh-SzcgYX-Rkfe3j-WJfavT-AqAADv-ht9AAn-SU1mzG-fQbKr8-V1WqZb-Ey8QeJ-izuLLP-CVpP6o-Unf9u5-UbQZ4N-cmzWb5

 

The passenger operation and shortline will be freelance, I already have a potential colour scheme (that will not be mostly yellow) for the passenger set. All will be revealed in the fullness of time.

 

Cheers,

Mick

Edited February 25, 2018 by newbryford

[k-59]

I sometimes wonder at quite why KCS has such a low profile. As you say it doesn't help that many of their operations are south of the border, and from an enthusiast perspective their grey livery wasn't the most inspired look but nevertheless it is a big railway company with a lot of trains.

Personally I do forget about them because they are the only class one which doesn't serve Chicago, so I don't see their locos/trains hardly at all. Tho when a Southern Belle does run through it becomes a bit of a event with the local railfans.

[newbryford]

I really must give this project a name, but haven't yet studied maps and things.

 

 

 

One of my favourite (or should that be favorite in this thread?) shortline names is the Napoleon, Defiance and Western.

 

Hailing from the northern climes of the UK, I looked around for Lancashire place names that are duplicat

ed in the US and found this list:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locations_in_the_United_States_with_an_English_name

 

As my intended setting is in Florida/Georgia, there is a limited choice. Apologies to the residents of East Yorkshire, but Hull doesn't make the cut (pedantically it should be Kingston upon Hull....) 

 

 

I quite like Windermere (just west of Orlando) and other townships in the locale that appeal to me include Webster, Tarrytown, Mabel, Clermont, Sumterville, Opahumpka, Auburndale and Yahal amongst others.

However, the Tarrytown, Windermere and Auburndale Terminal RR may not have the best initials............

 

"North Windermere Terminal" to retain the link with the former North Western Trains franchise that used to run by my back door? Blue with gold stars as a livery?

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/45726467@N02/14935492129/in/photolist-oKNisZ-kQ6Ft4-kQ6BDF-pDmhSX-qByccJ-rejF49-pBizbs-dCwJNw-8RwbgC-aAXfye-oxsTi3-h8J1n3-rvhYJV-nadGFZ-bVg1Ja-oEFgKw-nBdprP-rCzGqu-ozPbWU-dqwr6C-fPQegB-rjKH5C-9uHX96-p1gEWu-nDbe4u-dqwptk-atECGq-qErBiV-qEBfb2-rg5Mjx-6wjnH6-kwgwrJ-7fHJkz-qWQCSL-inHKJV-aK9bTt-o3JRJG-8RrDC3-hkY6s3-rt7vT5-ZLFKgY-kw1u5R-pcyh5G-quD1JS-k7PtKT-PS7L1T-srbx8f-s9LU21-oKPdkv-fTaqr1

 

I also need a name for my passenger operation. Lakeland is a city west of Orlando. "Lakes Express" maybe to maintain the North of England connection?

 

Hmmmm - I wonder how the NWT gold star livery would sit on a F59 and bi-level coaches.....?

 

Cheers,

MIck

[PaulRhB]

All sounds plausible on the names and when the passenger liveries feature such a wide range anything's possible. The only thing I'd throw into the livery consideration is it's generally very hot in the area you intend so white or silver roofs are likely to reflect the sun or with an air con failure they'd cook the punters rather quickly

Edited February 26, 2018 by PaulRhB

[roundhouse]

I hav

I seem to have acquired suitable motive power for my bi-level set.

455.jpg

 

Who needs long trains?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/62107343@N04/14375049453/in/photolist-nUgToe-e6HFAy-iboKBo-7QdUPW-dMdCUz-e6BZZB-n7tXHF-kQH51B-VkHYbk-r9Tvrm-pqpS9u-oDZZP6-pJPQgm-d2mJMj-22Xp5qN-8Uwwzw-PtDWVU-fvEkWq-ncvPeC-deqtmd-dQv9zX-wenZDb-qkn2Uf-dFygyS-9rEq3h-UdVK9c-bsmdhF-SDPSe3-e99pGY-bVM8LE-dMpnYf-g3CdV-qoieKe-ceVBTq-5SC5Tw-ceufUh-SzcgYX-Rkfe3j-WJfavT-AqAADv-ht9AAn-SU1mzG-fQbKr8-V1WqZb-Ey8QeJ-izuLLP-CVpP6o-Unf9u5-UbQZ4N-cmzWb5

 

The passenger operation and shortline will be freelance, I already have a potential colour scheme (that will not be mostly yellow) for the passenger set. All will be revealed in the fullness of time.

 

Cheers,

Mick

I have heard rumours that these are going from the West Coast as the new charger locos are replacing them. That is certainly happening at present to those that operate on the Cascade services in the North West

 

So you never know where these may end up even in a slightly modified livery

[Glorious NSE]

EMD nomenclature seems to have been completely altered at the 70 series. The SD70 series includes various versions of the V16 710 two stroke engine, the V12 1010 four stroke engine and both AC and DC transmission. At least three different cabs, a narrow gauge version with 4 bobo trucks etc. So whereas previously model monkeys were quite tightly defined the SD70 is effectively a whole family of designs at a similar power point

EMD model designations have changed many times over the years, each version has had it's own internal logic which then gets superseded by the next one, and may or may not retain the logic of the previous, or even be internally consistent!

 There's even a relatively brief dalliance with horsepower based designations until they were behind the competition in the 60s horsepower race, with their marketing team obviously responding to that by throwing out ever larger (and more importantly larger than their competitors!) random model numbers...  

[newbryford]

All sounds plausible on the names and when the passenger liveries feature such a wide range anything's possible. The only thing I'd throw into the livery consideration is it's generally very hot in the area you intend so white or silver roofs are likely to reflect the sun or with an air con failure they'd cook the punters rather quickly

 

I was considering a sizeable chunk of silver or white in the livery....

 

The coaches arrived today. Had to give them a test run at work.......

 

 

Cheers,

MIck

Edited February 26, 2018 by newbryford

[roundhouse]

Did you get your phone to connect to the free wifi?

Edited February 27, 2018 by roundhouse

[Oldddudders]

EMD model designations have changed many times over the years, each version has had it's own internal logic which then gets superseded by the next one, and may or may not retain the logic of the previous, or even be internally consistent!

 There's even a relatively brief dalliance with horsepower based designations until they were behind the competition in the 60s horsepower race, with their marketing team obviously responding to that by throwing out ever larger (and more importantly larger than their competitors!) random model numbers...

 

The leap from 2000hp GP20 to 2250hp GP30 comes to mind, while 3000hp GP/SD40 was getting silly! But it didn’t matter - they still outsold the others by a large margin in those days.

[Supaned]

Just a couple of ideas for your passenger service.

 

Two small operations which are of interest are Music City Star in Nashville , which uses former METRA cars from Chicago (available in HO from Kato & Walthers) , and ex Amtrak F40PHs , one of which is still in Amtrak Surfliner paint similar to your F59PHI.

 

On a similar theme, Iowa Northern runs the Hawkeye Express in conjunction with College Football games , using similar Gallery Cars and an F40 painted in a Rock Island paint job.

 

On the subject of F59PHIs, it has just been announced that the 20 locos belonging to Amtrak (450-470) will be sold on to Chicago Metra for further use following their replacement by new Siemens SC44 charger units.

[jjb1970]

The leap from 2000hp GP20 to 2250hp GP30 comes to mind, while 3000hp GP/SD40 was getting silly! But it didn’t matter - they still outsold the others by a large margin in those days.

I can't imagine many would have foreseen the change in the US locomotive market when EMD was pumping out GP7's & GP9's and through to the 38 and 40 series models. In the 50's and 60's the main reason for not buying EMD was probably to ensure a competitor remained in the market so as to avoid an EMD monopoly. How things changed.

[Allegheny1600]

I can't imagine many would have foreseen the change in the US locomotive market when EMD was pumping out GP7's & GP9's and through to the 38 and 40 series models. In the 50's and 60's the main reason for not buying EMD was probably to ensure a competitor remained in the market so as to avoid an EMD monopoly. How things changed.

Things certainly have changed!

Who would have ever thought we'd see EMD drop to second place loco builder, let alone get sold off?

But , . . . . I *think* one some of the reasons why roads bought from other than EMD back in the earlier days was either; 

They'd always bought from (Alco, Baldwin, etc, etc)

They got a better deal on price,

The sales team gave better perks,

Or even, EMD couldn't deliver in time.

 

Anyway, welcome to the 'dark side', Mick! This is shaping up to be an interesting thread.

Cheers,

John.

 

P.S. It would be interesting to know for sure if roads did buy from other manufacturers, just to keep competition going. I always thought that would smack of government interference but on the bigger road, they may have thought that way.

Edited February 27, 2018 by Allegheny1600

[jjb1970]

Things certainly have changed!

Who would have ever thought we'd see EMD drop to second place loco builder, let alone get sold off?

But , . . . . I *think* one some of the reasons why roads bought from other than EMD back in the earlier days was either; 

They'd always bought from (Alco, Baldwin, etc, etc)

They got a better deal on price,

The sales team gave better perks,

Or even, EMD couldn't deliver in time.

 

Anyway, welcome to the 'dark side', Mick! This is shaping up to be an interesting thread.

Cheers,

John.

 

P.S. It would be interesting to know for sure if roads did buy from other manufacturers, just to keep competition going. I always thought that would smack of government interference but on the bigger road, they may have thought that way.

Those reasons all played a part, but there was unwillingness from both EMD and their customers to allow EMD's dominance to grow into a monopoly (it was close enough to being a de-facto monopoly at times.

 

EMD were acutely aware of their own vulnerability should the Federal authorities decide they were in a monopoly position, and indeed had anti-trust legal issues in the early 60's. Their market dominance was earned on the back of superior products, smarter production and excellent customer support but politicians tend to see malfeasance where there is actually an excellent business. They took a decision to try and hold their market share down (admittedly they set their bar very high and didn't leave much for the others).

 

On the customer side many roads would have been happy with an all EMD fleet as cost per mile, reliability etc all tended to be better for EMD products for the most part but wanted to maintain at least one viable alternative in the market. Fairbanks Morse had an excellent diesel engine but never really managed to package it in a good overall locomotive, and Baldwin's efforts were never great. Both were hampered by poor management and production. Alco started out suffering many of the same managerial and production issues as Baldwin but did evolve (thanks in no small part to GE providing a lot of the expertise Alco struggled to provide internally) but they never did manage to close the gap EMD opened up and when GE entered the NA market for road units with the Universal series Alco was finished as GE became the alternative to EMD.

[Oldddudders]

I was under the impression that WW2 was the making of EMD. They seemed to be allowed to continue diesel loco production and hence development, while the trad steam builders were instructed to continue with what they did best. Influences in the War Production Board may have been significant. The result was that in 1945 EMD had a head start on its rivals, just as steam was becoming less attractive, with a catalogue of proven designs, when the railroads were looking to re-invest.

[k-59]

I was under the impression that WW2 was the making of EMD. They seemed to be allowed to continue diesel loco production and hence development, while the trad steam builders were instructed to continue with what they did best. Influences in the War Production Board may have been significant. The result was that in 1945 EMD had a head start on its rivals, just as steam was becoming less attractive, with a catalogue of proven designs, when the railroads were looking to re-invest.

This is generally true, but the reason EMD was allowed to produce mainline diesels through the war was they were the only company that had a proven design before the War Production Board took control. IIRC all locomotive companies, including EMD, were severely restricted in how much resources they could put into design work during the war.