Possible US small (it started out very small but is turning into medium size) HO project

[Oldddudders]

This is generally true, but the reason EMD was allowed to produce mainline diesels through the war was they were the only company that had a proven design before the War Production Board took control. IIRC all locomotive companies, including EMD, were severely restricted in how much resources they could put into design work during the war.

 

So, in every respect, FT103 was indeed “the diesel that did it” as someone, probably Trains magazine, put it. Having toured the USA in 1939, every railroad was aware of its potential.

[jjb1970]

After the shake out that left EMD dominant and with GE establishing themselves as the alternative supplier (later to overtake EMD) it became something of a truism to say that the war was a great opportunity for EMD and that the war production board ensured that older producers such as Alco and Baldwin were closed out. I think the reverse is true.

 

EMC/EMD invested heavily in diesel electric technology in the 1930's. They took the financial risk of developing the 567 engine and integrating it into a good locomotive. Just as importantly they developed a modern production process free of the baggage of old steam locomotive production which included standardised designs. And EMC had already developed a first class customer support capability including spare parts provision, customer training etc. Before the war EMD had already established a huge technical lead over competitors in diesel electric locomotives.

 

The war therefore was if anything an opportunity for their rivals. Although the war production board managed production it allowed companies to continue R&D on other projects and the interruption in normal business potentially could have allowed the established steam builders to develop a diesel program for the post war market and redesign their manufacturing and managerial processes on the back of a war time windfall of work. The war production board allowed Alco to build the prototype DL-202 "Black Maria" freight locomotive, the fact it was a flop was down to Alco. Baldwin I believe increased their diesel market share in the war on the back of switcher orders. After the war it was an easy excuse to blame the war production board for the relative failure of companies like Baldwin, Lima, Alco but this was a post facto rationalisation and not justified IMO.

[Allegheny1600]

Hi JJB,

Wow! Many thanks indeed for that, both your previous posts are most informative but I really never considered the fact the steam builders could and should have used the war as such an opportunity to develop diesel power.

When you look at it like that, it's obvious really.

I "knew" that diesel switchers were developed and built during the war, didn't Alco "invent" the road switcher by grafting a short hood onto their S1 and fitting road trucks to it?

Such a shame the management of these companies precluded them from making the most of the opportunities presented.*

I really never knew that EMD (EMC?) had pulled back from developing a monopoly!

Not the sort of thing I expected from a commercial organisation in America but rather clever imho.

Cheers,

John.

 

*Stuck in their ways, happy with steam, unable to see that diesel was the future, I guess.

[jjb1970]

When you read some of the comments from senior Alco and Baldwin management clinging onto delusions that steam had a long term future as late as the mid 40's it is quite sad in some ways. In the late 30's they genuinely believed that evolutionary advances such as roller bearings, improved metallurgy and increasing superheat etc would keep the steam engine competitive against diesels. It seems laughable today but these were not idiots and a lot of their belief seemed to originate in the much lower initial purchase cost of steam locomotives and the fact that they could generate much higher horse power. They didn't really appreciate the significance of diesel electric locomotive tractive effort and the fact you could run them in multiple easily without the complications of multiple steam loco operation.

 

The great strength of Alco, Baldwin and Lima was their capability to produce bespoke designs in very small numbers in response to unique customer requirements, and to do it pretty quickly and profitably. Using a tool kit of standardised components they could offer 1000's of possible permutations. They seem to have thought that it would work in a similar way for diesel locomotives but at that stage in the evolutionary development of diesel locomotives the economics only really stacked up if designs were series produced in large numbers based on standard designs. Somewhat ironically the market has pretty much returned to the old approach as manufacturers use a basic platform and tool kit to offer a huge number of possible packages to suit particular needs whilst leveraging streamlined manufacturing efficiencies.

 

Something else EMD did (which GM really helped with after they bought EMC) was innovative financing. They realised that operators needed access to financing and were able to provide it. Of course the old steam builder used financing products but not as innovatively as EMD.

[long island jack]

How's the layout planning coming along Mick?  

 

Ray

[newbryford]

How's the layout planning coming along Mick?  

 

Ray

 

Hi Ray,

I've been looking at how the bi-level set performs - and looks - on curves to gauge the minimum radius needed. Probably 3 feet on the non-passenger side with 4 on the other.

Wading through lots of videos and websites to see if there are any interesting bits and pieces that will make it not JAAL........

 

Also for livery ideas for the passenger and shortline stock.

 

I do like the sound of the Lakes Express and then something with Windermere in the name for the shortline.

 

I do have another priority project in my 00 layout, so progress on this will be sporadic in the meantime. As suitable stock comes along, there will be purchases as required though.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[k-59]

When you read some of the comments from senior Alco and Baldwin management clinging onto delusions that steam had a long term future as late as the mid 40's it is quite sad in some ways. In the late 30's they genuinely believed that evolutionary advances such as roller bearings, improved metallurgy and increasing superheat etc would keep the steam engine competitive against diesels. It seems laughable today but these were not idiots and a lot of their belief seemed to originate in the much lower initial purchase cost of steam locomotives and the fact that they could generate much higher horse power. They didn't really appreciate the significance of diesel electric locomotive tractive effort and the fact you could run them in multiple easily without the complications of multiple steam loco operation.

 

The great strength of Alco, Baldwin and Lima was their capability to produce bespoke designs in very small numbers in response to unique customer requirements, and to do it pretty quickly and profitably. Using a tool kit of standardised components they could offer 1000's of possible permutations. They seem to have thought that it would work in a similar way for diesel locomotives but at that stage in the evolutionary development of diesel locomotives the economics only really stacked up if designs were series produced in large numbers based on standard designs. Somewhat ironically the market has pretty much returned to the old approach as manufacturers use a basic platform and tool kit to offer a huge number of possible packages to suit particular needs whilst leveraging streamlined manufacturing efficiencies.

 

Something else EMD did (which GM really helped with after they bought EMC) was innovative financing. They realised that operators needed access to financing and were able to provide it. Of course the old steam builder used financing products but not as innovatively as EMD.

One of the big economies of diesels is there are much less labor intensive to maintain. Even the most modern steam engine would eventually need to have its boiler cleaned for example. This wasn't as much of a problem with pre-war wage levels but after the war saving labor was a chief concern.  

[Oldddudders]

I do like the sound of the Lakes Express 

 

 

 

ISTR the Soo Line had a train called the Laker, overnight to/from Duluth. 

[F-UnitMad]

ISTR the Soo Line had a train called the Laker, overnight to/from Duluth.

 

Somebody called??

 

They did; it ran until 1965. In 1986 they created the Lake States division, which in 1987 was bought out & became the basis of the 'new' Wisconsin Central.

[newbryford]

To move the discussion of from full size stuff.

 

What's the general opinion of the cheaper Bachmann sound fitted locos such as their Alco S2?

 

 I have found a few reviews on US sites.

Changing the speaker seems like a quick win ( just like the Hornby TTS)

 

Cheers,

Mick

Edited February 28, 2018 by newbryford

[roundhouse]

To move the discussion of from full size stuff.

 

What's the general opinion of the cheaper Bachmann sound fitted locos such as their Alco S2?

 

Cheers,

Mick

I have two of them and both are pretty good sounds as they are Tsunamis decoders with fewer functions etc. Paid under £100.00 for each one when they came out a few years ago. I presume more recent ones have the same sound decoders?

[Talltim]

The Alco switchers seem to get a good rep, possibly not quite as good as the Atlas ones, but well worth the (far lower) price. Bachmann USA occasionally put out a good model in between the train set fodder.

[newbryford]

A Bachmann ES44 review.

This guy gets excited from 17.50 and at 18.40 I think he's going to have an org&sm.....

 

Please shoot me if I post a video like this.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Glorious NSE]

To move the discussion of from full size stuff.

 

What's the general opinion of the cheaper Bachmann sound fitted locos such as their Alco S2?

The Alco switchers are nice, great bang for the buck in sound form. You get a decent core loco and it runs well, tweakable via JMRI (with selectable horns/bells etc) detail can be added to taste. 

 

 

In the same range, the RS3 looks similar in standard, and the GP7.

 

Personal choice, but i'd steer away from more modern prototypes (EMD 2nd gen and later) as shape/dimensional things detract on them. 

 

[Glorious NSE]

Personal choice, but i'd steer away from more modern prototypes (EMD 2nd gen and later) as shape/dimensional things detract on them. 

 

As you've brought up the ES44s, Bachmann's ones of these strike me as much less of a bargain than the Alco switchers - everyone and their dog makes a Gevo, everyone elses has better detail, and they aren't that much more even at full list price....

[long island jack]

I run two of the S2 found them ok, pickups need a tweak , only down side I've found there a bit light for pulling heavy loads, especially if your going to weight your freight cars, mine are 1oz over NMRA recommended weights.

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-lnjO1t5po

 

Ray

[Zomboid]

I have a Bachmann S2, DC only, and it's an absolute dog. Will not run slowly, to the point that the kadee shuffle is impossible.

Maybe I'm just unlucky, or it'll work better on DCC, but I don't want another...

[newbryford]

As you've brought up the ES44s, Bachmann's ones of these strike me as much less of a bargain than the Alco switchers - everyone and their dog makes a Gevo, everyone elses has better detail, and they aren't that much more even at full list price....

 

I only found the ES44 through a link - they're a bit large anyway for my plans.

 

A beat up S2/S4 and GP7 could easily be my shortline power.

 

Cheers,

Mick

Edited February 28, 2018 by newbryford

[Allegheny1600]

Good choice, Mick!

You can't beat a bit of Alco switcher power;

 

 

(S2 x 2, HH660 - all by Atlas)

Cheers,

John.

Edited February 28, 2018 by Allegheny1600

[F-UnitMad]

 

A beat up S2/S4 and GP7 could easily be my shortline power.

 

Yeah, yeah, we all fall for that one/try & kid ourselves - "I'll only need a couple of locos"

[roundhouse]

A Bachmann ES44 review.

This guy gets excited from 17.50 and at 18.40 I think he's going to have an org&sm.....

 

Please shoot me if I post a video like this.

 

Cheers,

Mick

Couldnt watch much of it as I was getting dizzy

We have two of the Bachmann Gevos both in NS heritage liveries, one bought new and another secondhand form Hattons. However this one has broken handrails, with a stanchion missing. Also the ditch lights doent work. They can be made to work but it requires an extra decoder to do so.  We only got them as my other half likes the NS heritage fleet so they arent likely to get much use.

 

Unless they are really cheap then I wouldnt bother with any more of these.

[jjb1970]

The Bachmann S2 is a nice looking model and well worth a look.

 

In general Bachmann models for the NA market were traditionally pitched at a different market and price point to their UK OO and European HO models. Whereas in Europe (I include the UK) they've pitched themselves at the premium end of the market and provide very high levels of detail with prices to match their NA offerings were closer to Rairoad level. They do make some good stuff but overall they're a step below Athearn Genesis, Atalas, Kato, Rapido, Intermountain, Broadway, the newer Bowser models etc. At one time they were a bit of a bargain and for those on a budget or looking for donor models for projects they were a great buy. However Bachmann NA prices also seem to have gone North, for their OO models people may not like the price increases but they're a premium product and I'd argue the prices are worth paying for the most part. For their NA models however they now just look expensive and do not justify the prices in many cases, if you can but an Atlas model for not much more then that's the way to go IMO.

[jjb1970]

One of the big economies of diesels is there are much less labor intensive to maintain. Even the most modern steam engine would eventually need to have its boiler cleaned for example. This wasn't as much of a problem with pre-war wage levels but after the war saving labor was a chief concern.

Indeed, and I think it went beyond cost. In the post war economy I think it was getting increasingly difficult to get people to do dirty and hazardous work, especially as jobs offering much better working environments were available. Railway enthusiasts may think it'd be great fun to crawl around steam locomotives for a living but for non-enthusiasts facing dirty, hard toil day in day out it can hardly have been an attractive job (and I suspect the allure would soon fade for enthusiasts if they had to do it as a real job rather than the occasional day as a volunteer).

[jjb1970]

I think I'm repeating myself, but I like Atlas models. They are generally accurate in the important ways, sufficiently detailed, nicely finished and run superbly, and perhaps most importantly I have found that they maintain high quality standards at a good price. Others can offer more fine detail and trick features, others are cheaper but the overall balance of detail, quality and price of Atlas models is hard to beat IMO. Their paint finish tends to be excellent and avoids the heavy look of some producers. Mind you I still like Kato, Kato models are still the gold standard for running qualities and general quality IMO and their paint finish is superb.

[long island jack]

One thing to consider is how you plan to work your fiddle yards, if there's going to be a lot of lifting of stock, your going to have to train your crew's where/how to pick them up, lots of small parts to break off!

 

one of the reasons I use blue box, roundhouse, trainman freight cars, they don't have the detail, as your intermountain etc, but I don't have a box of small parts after an exhibition, at viewing distance 3-4ft they look ok,( well to me they do!!)

 

Ray