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cal.n

CAF Mark 5 coach in 4mm scratchbuild

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As soon as these things arrived in the UK a few days ago (see this thread) I wanted a model, especially as the traction is all available RTR. Having posted in the both the Bachmann and Hornby wishlist threads that I'd like one, I decided to do it myself. Working from two photos and a video of this coach (number 15101), I have produced this bodyshell.

 

post-27529-0-75826000-1516530721_thumb.png

 

I haven't included the doors in this print as they are flush on the prototype so just painting white bits on the body wouldn't look convincing. I will offer the doors as a seperate part. I will also do the coach ends as a print but its probably easier just to use plasticard as these are just flat sheets.

 

I really don't want to call it a kit because there will be a lot scatchbuilding involved, even if I print the underframe, I don't know of any wheels without pin point axles suitable. Therefore, I think its better described as a 'scratchbuilding aid'.

 

I will add it to my Shapeways shop once I have got a test print myself.

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You have too much time on your hands.

That school you attend has gone downhill since my day - we only had three free periods..........

 

Looking good.

 

Cheers,

Mick

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You have too much time on your hands.

That school you attend has gone downhill since my day - we only had three free periods..........

 

Looking good.

 

Cheers,

Mick

Thanks, my free periods nicely line up with 5M50, 6J37 and 6K05.

 

Seriously, thanks. I’ll do more window arrangements this weekend (when I’ve seen 1Z46)

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Excellent work @cal.n

I was also working on the CAF Mk.5 coaches, I don't know if I'll upload it on my Shapeways shop because I don't have official permission from CAF. Nor do I know how to go about getting it.

 

Slightly different approach from me though, full body is one piece and so is the chassis (yet to be made). The ends do seem to have quite a bit of detail, so I've incorporated them as part of the body.

 

Regarding the wheels I was going to just grind down the pin-point axles.

Edited by MGR Hooper!

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Not sure about UK and Europe, but you should be able to find suitable wheelsets in the US.

 

With regard to licensing, not a viable option for small-series production. Just call them "modern coaches".

 

The ladders look a bit chunky and surely better without tension lock couplers.

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The ladders look a bit chunky and surely better without tension lock couplers.

 

And incorporating the couplers within the gangway shroud will cause issues on anything other than very gentle curves.

Yes - I know the couplers are inside the shroud on the prototype.

 

Chers,

Mick

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Not sure about UK and Europe, but you should be able to find suitable wheelsets in the US.

 

With regard to licensing, not a viable option for small-series production. Just call them "modern coaches".

 

The ladders look a bit chunky and surely better without tension lock couplers.

I'll be designing the bogie. The wheels I'll be getting from the US. And if by chance I can't get them I'll source wheels of a suitable diametre and grind the pin-points down.

 

Thanks for suggestion, I'll probably list it as something along the lines of what you've suggested.

 

The steps have since been corrected to the finest dimensions that are printable.

 

Couplings are there just for a guide and aren't part of the end product.

 

 

And incorporating the couplers within the gangway shroud will cause issues on anything other than very gentle curves.

Yes - I know the couplers are inside the shroud on the prototype.

 

Chers,

Mick

The couplings are only there temporarily. It's nothing concrete.

 

The model should based on what I've drawn traverse 3rd raidus curves with a narrow tension lock coupling.

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Excellent work @cal.n

I was also working on the CAF Mk.5 coaches, I don't know if I'll upload it on my Shapeways shop because I don't have official permission from CAF. Nor do I know how to go about getting it.

 

Slightly different approach from me though, full body is one piece and so is the chassis (yet to be made). The ends do seem to have quite a bit of detail, so I've incorporated them as part of the body.

 

Regarding the wheels I was going to just grind down the pin-point axles.

Thanks, nice work.

 

Without doing the ends, I’ve managed to bring the Shapeways price down to £25 for the bodyshell. I will probably do the ends from plasticard as they are just made up angular bits, but I will release it them as a part for this who don’t want to scratchbuild.

 

Re the licensing, I don’t think CAF have ever said they are mk5s so if I call them Caledonian Sleeper mk5s, I should be okay. ‘Caledonian Sleeper’ isn’t owned by Serco and is the franchise name so I should be ok using that.

Edited by cal.n
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Thanks, nice work.

 

Without doing the ends, I’ve managed to bring the Shapeways price down to £25 for the bodyshell. I will probably do the ends from plasticard as they are just made up angular bits, but I will release it them as a part for this who don’t want to scratchbuild.

Thanks, excellent price! I am assuming that the £25 is in WSF? or is it FUD?

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FUD

Thanks, excellent price! I am assuming that the £25 is in WSF? or is it FUD?

FUD. Weirdly it was £56 in WSF, but was not printable because it was too thin.

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FUD

FUD. Weirdly it was £56 in WSF, but was not printable because it was too thin.

Hahaha...Shapeways' pricing is just funny at times. I recently uploaded a CAD file for a loco body. Body with detail and all in FUD was cheaper than a body with large open areas and no detail in WSF.

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I've got an idea for a coupling using a sprung loaded mount and magnets. The end cars will have a look as part of the design for the regular tension locks to hook on.

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Not sure about UK and Europe, but you should be able to find suitable wheelsets in the US.

 

With regard to licensing, not a viable option for small-series production. Just call them "modern coaches".

 

The ladders look a bit chunky and surely better without tension lock couplers.

 

What legal protection do the manufacturer have on the exterior shape of their coaches?

 

(As opposed to liveries/branding that might be applied to them)

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What legal protection do the manufacturer have on the exterior shape of their coaches?

 

(As opposed to liveries/branding that might be applied to them)

Probably nothing on the shape of the coach. You would just be careful not calling them ‘CAF’ coaches.

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Hi all,

 

Good progress on these.

 

Copyrights, intellectual property and patent law are a concern.

 

IANL but my understanding is that patents are to protect the design from rivals trying to copy the same thing. So if your 3D print was 1:1 scale, and designed to replicate a working rail vehicle, then you'd have problems. A small scale facsimile is treated in a similar way to a 2D photograph - it is an artistic representation of the thing, and not the thing itself, and does not infringe.

 

Copyright is different and protects a variety of registered items such as logos, names, colours and combinations therein. This is designed to prevent "passing off" - so you couldn't put the name Ford on your kit-car and sell it as a type of Ford. 'Caledonian Sleeper" is a registered brand - I know this as we have the licence to use the logo, colours and name on the Revolution Trains Class 92 - so you should be wary of using this in your marketing. I would describe them as "Mk5 sleeper coach" or "Mk 5 club car" etc.

 

Boring bits out of the way, and considering the models themselves, I would say that couplers and bogies are going to be the biggest headache. I know that Kato have produced Amtrak cars with inside bearing bogies; I don't know their wheelbase and whether they would be suitable, but they might be a good start in terms of getting something running.

 

The couplers will need to swing more than the corridor connection will allow. We had the same problem in designing the Pendolino. For close-coupling and reliability the best solution we came up with was to make the corridor connection shallower than the prototype. Once the train is coupled up the compromise is barely noticeable.

 

Cheers

 

Ben A.

Edited by Ben A

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Hi all,

 

Good progress on these.

 

Copyrights, intellectual property and patent law are a concern.

 

IANL but my understanding is that patents are to protect the design from rivals trying to copy the same thing. So if your 3D print was 1:1 scale, and designed to replicate a working rail vehicle, then you'd have problems. A small scale facsimile is treated in a similar way to a 2D photograph - it is an artistic representation of the thing, and not the thing itself, and does not infringe.

 

Copyright is different and protects a variety of registered items such as logos, names, colours and combinations therein. This is designed to prevent "passing off" - so you couldn't put the name Ford on your kit-car and sell it as a type of Ford. 'Caledonian Sleeper" is a registered brand - I know this as we have the licence to use the logo, colours and name on the Revolution Trains Class 92 - so you should be wary of using this in your marketing. I would describe them as "Mk5 sleeper coach" or "Mk 5 club car" etc

 

 

Also not a lawyer but I've been on a few courses on intellectual property rights.

 

Patents (in principle) protect inventions, not particular objects.  I think "design rights" are what protect a 3 dimensional design. I'm not sure that making something bigger or smaller makes a difference here but could be wrong.

 

It's been discussed here that it was legitimate for Great British Locomotives to make and sell their own copies of other 00 gauge models - if I understand correctly, these might not infringe design rights of the original model because that was not different enough from the real thing to be an original design in itself...but might infringe the rights of a full size version.

 

The protection against "passing off" is registered trademarks and the like, not copyright. You might be OK with "Caledonian Sleeper" on a car because it's not likely to be confused for a train. (I believe the Post Office claim a trademark on the colour red, but this only prevents other delivery companies from using it, not anybody selling red products).

 

On the other hand, the interpretation of what could consist of "passing off" is quite broad. I have read that Stagecoach had to pay Translink in Northern Ireland to use "Goldline" branding despite the fact that nobody is going to confuse the 132 from Cardiff to Maerdy with the Belfast to Dublin express. Like perhaps a lot of intellectual property rights, it lets someone charge money for something that never really cost them anything in the first place.

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Hi all,

 

Good progress on these.

 

Copyrights, intellectual property and patent law are a concern.

 

IANL but my understanding is that patents are to protect the design from rivals trying to copy the same thing. So if your 3D print was 1:1 scale, and designed to replicate a working rail vehicle, then you'd have problems. A small scale facsimile is treated in a similar way to a 2D photograph - it is an artistic representation of the thing, and not the thing itself, and does not infringe.

 

Copyright is different and protects a variety of registered items such as logos, names, colours and combinations therein. This is designed to prevent "passing off" - so you couldn't put the name Ford on your kit-car and sell it as a type of Ford. 'Caledonian Sleeper" is a registered brand - I know this as we have the licence to use the logo, colours and name on the Revolution Trains Class 92 - so you should be wary of using this in your marketing. I would describe them as "Mk5 sleeper coach" or "Mk 5 club car" etc.

 

Boring bits out of the way, and considering the models themselves, I would say that couplers and bogies are going to be the biggest headache. I know that Kato have produced Amtrak cars with inside bearing bogies; I don't know their wheelbase and whether they would be suitable, but they might be a good start in terms of getting something running.

 

The couplers will need to swing more than the corridor connection will allow. We had the same problem in designing the Pendolino. For close-coupling and reliability the best solution we came up with was to make the corridor connection shallower than the prototype. Once the train is coupled up the compromise is barely noticeable.

 

Cheers

 

Ben A.

Thank you for that Ben, though a decision to sell my models or not hasn't been made. cal.n would most likely benefit from his kit version as he has gotten a good price. My models with all the detail can only be done in FUD and therefore costs around $120+ give and take a few bucks as I've not added the window details and haven't factored in the cost of the bogies (also FUD), undeframe detail (also FUD) and chassis (PLA)

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I'll most probably re-work the CAD so that I'll have it in different parts:-
- Body
- Chassis
- Underframe detail
- Bogies
- End details (gangways, and all electrical stuff)

This way I hope to then have more parts printed in a wider range of materials thus giving a more flexible cost.

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Done the coach ends. Decided to print these in WSF, not only to keep the price down, but to give it a bit more strength. One trade off is that the lamp irons are only represented and do not have a gap behind them, as this is beyond the limits of WSF, for the sake of a £6 saving per coach, I think its not the end of the world. If you really want 3d lamp irons, they are solid underneath so you could cut a groove of just file off and replace with brass or plasticard.

 

I have also chosen not to print the cabling as this is impartical in any material and a bent paperclip or wire painted would suffice.

 

post-27529-0-78434100-1516912913_thumb.png

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Done the coach ends. Decided to print these in WSF, not only to keep the price down, but to give it a bit more strength. One trade off is that the lamp irons are only represented and do not have a gap behind them, as this is beyond the limits of WSF, for the sake of a £6 saving per coach, I think its not the end of the world. If you really want 3d lamp irons, they are solid underneath so you could cut a groove of just file off and replace with brass or plasticard.

 

I have also chosen not to print the cabling as this is impartical in any material and a bent paperclip or wire painted would suffice.

 

attachicon.gifPicture1.png

You could also just leave a small groove. The more serious modeler will use some brass strips to make it, ones who are okay will use a small strip of plasticard and replicate what you did. Will save time sanding LOL.

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Got a test print delivered today, really pleased with how its turned out. I am now happy enough with the final print to offer it as a product on Shapeways with a final price of £25.99 for the bodyshell. I have also worked out that this coach is a 'Lounge Car'

 

https://www.shapeways.com/product/4Q7ZEDEW5/oo-em-p4-caledonian-sleeper-mark-5-coach-bodyshell

 

post-27529-0-38254400-1517424225_thumb.jpg

 

post-27529-0-00458000-1517424229_thumb.jpg

 

post-27529-0-66962700-1517424233_thumb.jpg

 

 

 

 

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post-27529-0-56828400-1517436258_thumb.jpeg

 

Was playing trains with bodyshells and put the Mk5 with some appropriate traction (to be made into a Sleeper 73/9)

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Got a test print delivered today, really pleased with how its turned out. I am now happy enough with the final print to offer it as a product on Shapeways with a final price of £25.99 for the bodyshell. I have also worked out that this coach is a 'Lounge Car'

 

https://www.shapeways.com/product/4Q7ZEDEW5/oo-em-p4-caledonian-sleeper-mark-5-coach-bodyshell

 

attachicon.gifIMG_3410.jpg

 

attachicon.gifIMG_3411.jpg

 

attachicon.gifIMG_3419.jpg

Superb work there Cal! Very impressive.

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