The case for CIWL Night Sleeper Coaches

[Joseph_Pestell]

Just been reminding myself of a few details of the F type sleeper.

 

The NRM one is from the first batch, built in 1936. Interesting to see that these UK gauge carriages were built in Europe when some continental gauge CIWL carriages had been built in Birmingham, travelling by rail to Harwich and the train ferry to Zeebrugge.

 

Really too many differences to make an easy conversion from a UK Pullman car.

[autocoach]

Was that an obscure subtle hint in the Engine Shed highlighting of the Malcom Root poster of Sr. Robert Blake hauling Wagon Lit blue coaches at Folkestone Warren? Just to get your hopes up......

[Mike at C&M]

For those of you are not completely scale sensitive, may I point you in the direction of LS Models who are re-releasing a series of their SNCF Type 'F' Train Ferry Sleeping cars in the next couple of months.

 

Please be aware that these are 'HO' scale (1 to 87), rather than 'OO' scale (1 to 76), but will run on normal 16.5mm gauge track (Peco, Hornby etc.)

 

Set 49121      3 x 1st/2nd Class Type F sleeping cars, in 1937 livery. original version with the CIWL monogram

49126             a single Type F, description as for set 49121

 

Set 49122      3 x 1st/2nd Class Type F sleeping cars, in 1956 livery, CIWL lettering

49127             a single Type F, description as for set 49122

 

Set 49123      3 x 1st Class Type F sleeping cars, in 1968 livery, CIWL lettering and UIC numbers

49128            a single Type F, description as for set 49123

 

Set 49124      3 x Type F sleeping cars, in 1974 livery. No CIWL logos, 2 coaches with SNCF 'lozenge' logo

49125            a single Type F, description as for set 49124, with SNCF 'lozenge' logo

 

Stockists in the UK for LS Models are:

   C&M Models, Carlisle

   The Hobby Shop, Faversham

 

Price is expected to be around £65 per coach, however for this you get a top quality product with superb detail both inside and outside the coaches.

 

Pre-ordering is recommended, as LS Models produce very short runs which often sell out before release.

 

As noted above, the coaches are underscale for true 'OO' scale, but for those wanting such coaches, this may prove the easiest solution.

[JSpencer]

Altaya have previously released 1926 versions in HO:

 

http://dud.train.pagesperso-orange.fr/dud/materiel/altaya/oe.htm

 

As I live in France, I brought the entire series back in 2004. While the coaches were ok, the locos run like metal dustbin! I feel running in will only wear them out.

 

They also did the 1914 version. One on sale here (I agree when they say the loco is noisy!!):

 

https://www.star-boutique.fr/modelisme-ferroviaire-product-details-oe221-altaya-ho-rame-ciwl-ep-ii-avec-loco-221-atantic-cie-du-nord-altaya-en-ID21548.html

 

I might run mine with Bachmann's H1! Hmm where the French air braked?

Edited January 29, 2018 by JSpencer

[Horsetan]

In a world where the poor commuter on the western still has to make do with airfix grade B sets and autocoaches a run of CIWL coaches for the Southern are obviously a much higher priority.

 

It's enough to make any fair minded person vote Labour. I'm sure Jeremy Corbin promised to legislate for the mandatory introduction of ex GWR non corridor stock in the last Labour manifesto

 

Given sufficient Momentum....

[tetsudofan]

I've got some of the LS Models CIWL sleepers and always keep one at the back of my layout so that I can easily explain to visitors the difference in size between 1:87 and 1:76 models as can be seen from the following pics:

 

 

 

 

I would certainly like Hornby to produce the CIWL Sleeper in OO as I used the Night Ferry a few times in 1973/1974. Most of the trips were to Paris but once I took it to Brussels when the Brussels section was just one sleeper. Annoys me that I was not into taking pictures at that time.

 

Keith

[Metr0Land]

Given sufficient Momentum....

The MiM are noted for their Militant Tendency 

[Oldddudders]

 

Stockists in the UK for LS Models are:

   C&M Models, Carlisle

   The Hobby Shop, Faversham

 

 

 

Full marks for listing another UK outlet, very fair. LS are finally doing further runs of Picasso X3800 railcars, I read. if I see a model I fancy, will you be able to order?

[Wickham Green]

JP

 

I think you might be right.

 

AVS

 

Wrong fourgon, I think. The SNCF ones used latterly had no 'birdcage', and were longer. I've seen pickiest of the train in France, in the early years, with 'birdcage' fourgons in the consist, but I don't think those ones crossed the channel.

 

K

Apart from the three - well known - Southern Railway 'birdcage' vans ( forerunners of familiar 'BY' ) there were two types of French Fourgon involved : with and without a guard's compartment. Facilities for the guard appear to have started out identical in British and French vans with his van being exactly the same size and with exactly the same 'birdcage' on the roof though the French vans lost this at some time in the 'fifties. Published drawings show the French vans with a small toilet cubicle but I GUESS that was a later mod too !!?!

 

Rather mysteriously, the Southern also had two 'standard' four-wheeled luggage vans allocated to 'Continental' traffic - the second one appears ( much later in life ) among Paul Bartlett's photos, clearly fitted with tying-down rings on the solebar ...... but I've never seen any evidence that these were used for the 'Night Ferry'.

Edited January 31, 2018 by Wickham Green

[Nearholmer]

Interesting.

 

I've got a huge official drawing of the SR forgons somewhere, but it's a bit disappointing, because it only shows the underframe, not the bodywork!

[JSpencer]

Wasn't European stock air braked? If so, how did they manage the CIWL with UK vacuum braked locos?

[Coryton]

Wasn't European stock air braked? If so, how did they manage the CIWL with UK vacuum braked locos?

 

To state the obvious, dual braked coaches would presumably do the trick.

 

Presumably not all that much inconvenience, given the service needed dedicated coaches anyway.

[Wickham Green]

To state the obvious, dual braked coaches would presumably do the trick.

 

Presumably not all that much inconvenience, given the service needed dedicated coaches anyway.

Yes, the sleepers and vans were dual braked - as were many freight wagons built to 'Ferry' standards ( and we could do with models of those too - they DID range far and wide ! )

[JSpencer]

That means the 1914 versions would have been air braked only. So a visit from those with a H1 pulling them is not impossible even if the CIWL did not reach the UK until the 30s. What could look better than CIWL 1914 type coaches behind La France?

Edited January 31, 2018 by JSpencer

[truffy]

That means the 1914 versions would have been air braked only. So a visit from those with a H1 pulling them is not impossible even if the CIWL did not reach the UK until the 30s. What could look better than CIWL 1914 type coaches behind La France?

 

Rule #1

[Wickham Green]

Rule #1

....... with a little help from the world famous* Newhaven-Dieppe train ferry ........ unfortunately this was rather short-lived as the vessels were commandeered for other purposes during the Great War and never returned.

 

* World famous the length and breadth of Newhaven AND Dieppe !

[Covkid]

Yes, the sleepers and vans were dual braked - as were many freight wagons built to 'Ferry' standards ( and we could do with models of those too - they DID range far and wide ! )

 

 

To state the obvious, dual braked coaches would presumably do the trick.

 

Presumably not all that much inconvenience, given the service needed dedicated coaches anyway.

 

 

Wasn't European stock air braked? If so, how did they manage the CIWL with UK vacuum braked locos?

 

 

Ferry fitted wagons would be a very useful addition - something the likes of the "new era" manufacturers might consider.

I don't think many would transcend the difference between OO and HO on the same layout but there is plenty of scope for the OO modellers. BR modified a few types and I recall seeing a couple BR ferry tube wagons in Steyr in Austria in 1981 or 1982. At first glance they just looked identical to the domestic version but were dual braked, continental buffers, screw shackles and tie down lugs on the solebar, as well as the various UIC labelling.

 

There were some rather appealling 7 or 8 plank four wheel opens which were ferry fitted.  One was being used at the Didcot Railway Centre to move stuff into the land locked site on Network Rail metals.

It's pseudo GW livery is understandable I suppose   https://photos.smugmug.com/Didcot-Railway-Centre/Railway-Wagons-Cranes/i-pdfFmQ3/0/3278f66f/X2/BR%205267%208%20Plank%20Open%2015%2C05%2C2008-X2.jpg. 

Edited February 1, 2018 by Covkid

[47137]

For those with the LS coaches, there is a kit for the matching baggage wagon from AMF 87, still listed on their web site:

https://www.amf87.fr/prestashop/fourgons-à-bagages-et-postaux/28-k111-fourgon-nord-dd2-avec-compt-central-ss-.html

 

If anyone has tackled one of their kits I'd be very interested to know how you got on, it seems a lot of money but maybe the parts are to a higher standard than some British kits.

 

- Richard.

[Wickham Green]

Ferry fitted wagons would be a very useful addition - something the likes of the "new era" manufacturers might consider.

I don't think many would transcend the difference between OO and HO on the same layout but there is plenty of scope for the OO modellers. BR modified a few types and I recall seeing a couple BR ferry tube wagons in Steyr in Austria in 1981 or 1982. At first glance they just looked identical to the domestic version but were dual braked, continental buffers, screw shackles and tie down lugs on the solebar, as well as the various UIC labelling.

 

There were some rather appealling 7 or 8 plank four wheel opens which were ferry fitted.  One was being used at the Didcot Railway Centre to move stuff into the land locked site on Network Rail metals.

It's pseudo GW livery is understandable I suppose   https://photos.smugmug.com/Didcot-Railway-Centre/Railway-Wagons-Cranes/i-pdfFmQ3/0/3278f66f/X2/BR%205267%208%20Plank%20Open%2015%2C05%2C2008-X2.jpg. 

Many years back there was an article in one of the modelling mags* about a nice-looking 3.5mm scale brass kit for a French ferry van .... I contacted the manufacturer to see whether he'd re-scale the artwork for the 4mm market but he wasn't interested - and he cited some French law that prevented him from making it available to a UK manufacturer under license ! ................ the EU legal situation might have changed in the interim but that's history now as far as we're concerned ............................................

 

* not mainsteam - maybe Modellers Backtrack or similar

[Wickham Green]

For those with the LS coaches, there is a kit for the matching baggage wagon from AMF 87, still listed on their web site:

https://www.amf87.fr/prestashop/fourgons-à-bagages-et-postaux/28-k111-fourgon-nord-dd2-avec-compt-central-ss-.html

 

If anyone has tackled one of their kits I'd be very interested to know how you got on, it seems a lot of money but maybe the parts are to a higher standard than some British kits.

 

- Richard.

Seems to be the later version of the guard-fourgon ( my terminology ) - the original one with birdcage is K110 and the type without guard's compartment K109 ............ I'd guess they're somewhat superior to Marc's !!?!.

[47137]

A good photo of one of the SNCF vans (without the central compartment) here:

http://www.semgonline.com/misc/named_09.html

 

I think the Type F coaches would be a marvellous project for Hornby - one design for 1936 to 1980 with several liveries to offer. But I do think they should tackle at least one of the SNCF vans to go with them. This would be an extremely niche product ('Continental 00'?), so perhaps the coaches and van would be best marketed together as a train pack.

 

- Richard.

[mikeharvey22]

....... with a little help from the world famous* Newhaven-Dieppe train ferry ........ unfortunately this was rather short-lived as the vessels were commandeered for other purposes during the Great War and never returned.

 

* World famous the length and breadth of Newhaven AND Dieppe !

If you really want to apply rule #1, Senlac was a Dieppe-Newhaven ferry, reproduced in 1/100 scale as a train ferry. Don’t believe the 1/87 scale claimed. The actual dimensions are 1/100.

 

https://www.regionsetcompagnies.fr/produit/846-ferry-boat-a-quai/

Edited February 2, 2018 by mikeharvey22

[Opelsi]

I've got some of the LS Models CIWL sleepers and always keep one at the back of my layout so that I can easily explain to visitors the difference in size between 1:87 and 1:76 models as can be seen from the following pics:

 

CIWLSleeper-01.jpg

 

CIWLSleeper-02.jpg

 

CIWLSleeper-03.jpg

 

I would certainly like Hornby to produce the CIWL Sleeper in OO as I used the Night Ferry a few times in 1973/1974. Most of the trips were to Paris but once I took it to Brussels when the Brussels section was just one sleeper. Annoys me that I was not into taking pictures at that time.

 

Keith

 

Interesting regarding the OO / HO. I visited 'Miniatur Wunderland' in Hamburg, Germany last week. Apparently they are opening a GB section in 2019.

 

Will be interesting to see what they do, I suspect they will use OO stock & locos and keep everything else in HO for ease of conformity to the rest of their magnificent exhibition.

[JSpencer]

I have found a very useful link which contains a PDF listing many/most of the CIWL cars ever made (Altaya did the LX type so won,t have been seen in the UK).

 

http://traincollectors.co.uk/ciwl-in-miniature

 

Scroll down the link to the PDF, open the Link, takes you to a place with many PDFs, click on the CIWL one.

[BernardTPM]

Interesting regarding the OO / HO. I visited 'Miniatur Wunderland' in Hamburg, Germany last week. Apparently they are opening a GB section in 2019.

 

Will be interesting to see what they do, I suspect they will use OO stock & locos and keep everything else in HO for ease of conformity to the rest of their magnificent exhibition.

If not then I think we'll be seeing a big rise in the secondhand prices of Lima Mk.2s