JaymzHatstand Posted September 19, 2020 Share Posted September 19, 2020 I picked one up yesterday from Monk Bar Models (York), and paid for it - usual satisfied customer disclaimer. I must admit, it's very nice, well decorated (I think) and with a good weight to it. The wheels run true so it doesn't wobble either! The three links in the box are a nice addition, and enabled it to go straight into service with my pre-grouping stock for a quick shunt with my NER E! I do have an operational question or two for those more knowledgeable; would the odd wagon appear in a mixed goods, and if so, would it have needed a barrier wagon either in transit, or during shunting? Cheers J Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted September 19, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 19, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, JaymzHatstand said: I picked one up yesterday from Monk Bar Models (York), and paid for it - usual satisfied customer disclaimer. I must admit, it's very nice, well decorated (I think) and with a good weight to it. The wheels run true so it doesn't wobble either! The three links in the box are a nice addition, and enabled it to go straight into service with my pre-grouping stock for a quick shunt with my NER E! I do have an operational question or two for those more knowledgeable; would the odd wagon appear in a mixed goods, and if so, would it have needed a barrier wagon either in transit, or during shunting? Cheers J Specific barrier wagons were normally only provided in trains carrying multiple Class A tank wagons, or mixed A & B where the running order was not necessarily predictable. When an odd tank or two were marshalled in mixed goods trains the requirement was for there to be at least one, sometimes two other wagons (empty or carrying non-flammable loads, and a minimum of five planks in height) between both tank and loco and tank and brake van. The latter because of the guard's lit stove in it. In your photo above, swap the open over with the tank and you should be "legal". John Edited September 19, 2020 by Dunsignalling Sentence deleted 1 1 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted September 19, 2020 Share Posted September 19, 2020 1 hour ago, JaymzHatstand said: I picked one up yesterday from Monk Bar Models (York), and paid for it - usual satisfied customer disclaimer. I must admit, it's very nice, well decorated (I think) and with a good weight to it. The wheels run true so it doesn't wobble either! The three links in the box are a nice addition, and enabled it to go straight into service with my pre-grouping stock for a quick shunt with my NER E! I do have an operational question or two for those more knowledgeable; would the odd wagon appear in a mixed goods, and if so, would it have needed a barrier wagon either in transit, or during shunting? Cheers J 'Block Trains' of tank wagons were the exception to the norm, until the late 1950s (apart from during WW2). Tanks would be conveyed in ordinary freight trains, with the proviso that there had to be some wagons between the loco and the brake van and the tank wagons. These barriers need not be empty, as long as their load was relatively inert. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted September 19, 2020 Share Posted September 19, 2020 21 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said: Specific barrier wagons were normally only provided in trains carrying multiple Class A tank wagons, or mixed A & B where the running order was not necessarily predictable. When an odd tank or two were marshalled in mixed goods trains the requirement was for there to be at least one, sometimes two other wagons (empty or carrying non-flammable loads, and a minimum of five planks in height) between both tank and loco and tank and brake van. The latter because of the guard's lit stove in it. The same should apply when shunting with a steam loco but I have seen a few photographs where that is clearly not being observed. In your photo above, swap the open over with the tank and you should be "legal". John Most of this is good but apologies John this is not true for shunting. The GWR rule book clearly exempts shunting and local movements from the requirement for any protection between locomotive and class A wagon. I would expect the other railways to have similar exemptions. Paul 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted September 19, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 19, 2020 2 hours ago, hmrspaul said: Most of this is good but apologies John this is not true for shunting. The GWR rule book clearly exempts shunting and local movements from the requirement for any protection between locomotive and class A wagon. I would expect the other railways to have similar exemptions. Paul Reference deleted. I think I may have been over-interpreting the use of a runner wagon for visibility reasons. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinTrucks Posted September 28, 2020 Share Posted September 28, 2020 The COLFIX and BENZOL By-Products versions of these tank wagons appear to be with retailers now. Best regards, Martin 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cor-onGRT4 Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 (edited) Colfix Ltd was registered in 1927 and dissolved in 1948, but was in 1938 nearly dissolved according The London Gazette of 1938 mentioned in the left collum of the article , see PDF HMRS has a picture from 1927, of a 14 ton tankwagon, the same livery as Oxford rail but with running number 33, maybe Oxford rail have based theirs on this picture. But it is clearly this Oxford model is pre war. data.pdf Edited September 30, 2020 by Cor-onGRT4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted September 30, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 30, 2020 On 19/09/2020 at 11:29, Dunsignalling said: Specific barrier wagons were normally only provided in trains carrying multiple Class A tank wagons, or mixed A & B where the running order was not necessarily predictable. When an odd tank or two were marshalled in mixed goods trains the requirement was for there to be at least one, sometimes two other wagons (empty or carrying non-flammable loads, and a minimum of five planks in height) between both tank and loco and tank and brake van. The latter because of the guard's lit stove in it. In your photo above, swap the open over with the tank and you should be "legal". John The GWR Instruction was very simple - unfitted tank wagons conveying inflammable liquids were to be marshalled as near to the middle of the train as possible unless they were vacuum fitted in which case they were to be marshalled at the rear end of the fitted portion (when they were authorised to travel in part fitted trains). There were additional restrictions regarding tank wagons conveying inflammable liquids being conveyd, or not conveyed, in fully fitted freight trains. Unfitted tank wagons conveying inflammable liquids could be conveyed in Mixed Trains (if no other service was available) but had to be separated from the passenger vehicles by at least one other wagon and from the brakevan by one wagon. (I once travelled in a Mixed Train conveying a loaded Class A tank wagon but that was in 1969!). On 19/09/2020 at 11:52, hmrspaul said: Most of this is good but apologies John this is not true for shunting. The GWR rule book clearly exempts shunting and local movements from the requirement for any protection between locomotive and class A wagon. I would expect the other railways to have similar exemptions. Paul Which Rule was that Paul ? I'm blowed if I can find it in Rules 110, 158, or 240 (probably an age thing ). On the other hand I can't find a Rule prohibiting it. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigherb Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 My Benzol & By Products arrived today. I'm very impressed with the detail apart from the droopy couplings although they don't seem to affect coupling up. Just need to wait for the BP version and hope they do a Berry Wiggins from the southern oil traffic. And one with big brother from Mainline. 6 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porcy Mane Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said: Which Rule was that Paul ? I suppose every rule was made to be broken. I've seen good number of photographs of 57XX's hauling block trains of unfitted benzine tanks between Trefor (Monsanto) & Ellesmere Port. There are no barrier wagons at either the front or rear. P Edited September 30, 2020 by Porcy Mane 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green too Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said: The GWR Instruction was very simple ....... tank wagons conveying inflammable liquids ......... unless they were vacuum fitted in which case they were to be marshalled at the rear end of the fitted portion ........ I'm struggling to think of any vac-fitted class 'A' tanks prior to the 35 tonners in the late fifties ! ( or class 'B' for that matter ) 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinTrucks Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 7 hours ago, Porcy Mane said: I suppose every rule was made to be broken. I've seen good number of photographs of 57XX's hauling block trains of unfitted benzine tanks between Trefor (Monsanto) & Ellesmere Port. There are no barrier wagons at either the front or rear. P I may well be wrong, my memory not being all that it was. However, I seem to recollect the barrier wagons being introduced in BR days following a rear-end collision to a tanker train on the Eastern Region in BR days when the proximity of the guard's brake van stove to the load gave cause for concern. Best regards, Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porcy Mane Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 1 hour ago, MartinTrucks said: I seem to recollect the barrier wagons being introduced in BR days following a rear-end collision The series of photographs I have sight of were taken during 1964 & 1965. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack P Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 Apologies for the vagueness of the question; I really like these and would like to pick up a few, does anyone more knowledgeable than I know if any of these definitely wouldn't have been seen on the Southern in 1947ish? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigherb Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 5 hours ago, Jack P said: Apologies for the vagueness of the question; I really like these and would like to pick up a few, does anyone more knowledgeable than I know if any of these definitely wouldn't have been seen on the Southern in 1947ish? Mobil certainly not, that is a mid fifties livery. 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 1, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 1, 2020 19 hours ago, Porcy Mane said: I suppose every rule was made to be broken. I've seen good number of photographs of 57XX's hauling block trains of unfitted benzine tanks between Trefor (Monsanto) & Ellesmere Port. There are no barrier wagons at either the front or rear. P I know what you mean having seen some similar photos. The firtst question is whether or not the tanks were 'empty'. (i.e. not just discharged but properly purged) although I suspect in the case of one photo I recall that probably wasn't the case. On the other hand of course some folk could be rather lax when they thoight nobody was looking 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
1466 Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 On 01/10/2020 at 02:13, Jack P said: Apologies for the vagueness of the question; I really like these and would like to pick up a few, does anyone more knowledgeable than I know if any of these definitely wouldn't have been seen on the Southern in 1947ish? I apologise in advance for my vague replies. First of all I lived in Mitcham which was the location of one of Benzole’s sites . So a personal connection. Secondly , Mitcham was in Southern Railway and then Southern Region territory . So it is entirely possible a Benzole tanker would be appropriate for a Southern layout . Third , all petrol was “pooled “ during the war so all tankers would have been shared and therefore ubiquitous. You can run any tanker anywhere credibly as they would have travelled widely . The “pool” arrangements ceased around 1952, I think , and branded petrol was marketed . I’m persuaded you could run any of the pre war tankers , if you wish . Probably weathered . Any livery introduced say post 1952 would be anomalous since new liveries were only slowly introduced .Everything was still rationed immediately post war . But , most importantly, Rule 1 applies . The Oxford tankers have been well reviewed and I’m pleased with mine . Usual disclaimer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iltman Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 18 hours ago, 1466 said: I apologise in advance for my vague replies. First of all I lived in Mitcham which was the location of one of Benzole’s sites . So a personal connection. Secondly , Mitcham was in Southern Railway and then Southern Region territory . So it is entirely possible a Benzole tanker would be appropriate for a Southern layout . Third , all petrol was “pooled “ during the war so all tankers would have been shared and therefore ubiquitous. You can run any tanker anywhere credibly as they would have travelled widely . The “pool” arrangements ceased around 1952, I think , and branded petrol was marketed . I’m persuaded you could run any of the pre war tankers , if you wish . Probably weathered . Any livery introduced say post 1952 would be anomalous since new liveries were only slowly introduced .Everything was still rationed immediately post war . But , most importantly, Rule 1 applies . The Oxford tankers have been well reviewed and I’m pleased with mine . Usual disclaimer. I hope you don’t mind if I elucidate a little. As you rightly say all tank wagons for petrol and fuel oil were pooled in 1939 when the government took over the supply and distribution. This ceased in 1947 when the tank wagons were handed back to their owners, and MOS and Air Ministry tanks were distributed as well. Its known that some tanks in the pre 1939 stone livery were still to be seen in the early 1950s but please don’t go overboard on the weathering as class A tanks tended to be not as mucky as the class B fuel oil variety 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted October 9, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 9, 2020 It is undoubtedly true that older tank wagon liveries persisted for some years after WW2. I've seen photos of buff Class A tanks purportedly taken as late as 1954 showing some in a condition that would suggest they'd not need repainting any time soon. However, by even the early-BR era, many of the smaller owners had amalgamated, been taken over by one of the larger concerns, gone out of business, or switched to road tankers. The markings on most of these models are clearly pre-war, and will need some amendment for later periods, even where most of the livery might have remained intact. The only release (so far) of definite benefit to the BR-era modeller, is the Mobil one, notwithstanding the red buffer beams, which should be black. Did Oxford copy those from a preserved example to which some latter-day H&S thinking has been applied, I wonder? John 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
1466 Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 3 hours ago, Dunsignalling said: It is undoubtedly true that older tank wagon liveries persisted for some years after WW2. I've seen photos of buff Class A tanks purportedly taken as late as 1954 showing some in a condition that would suggest they'd not need repainting any time soon. However, by even the early-BR era, many of the smaller owners had amalgamated, been taken over by one of the larger concerns, gone out of business, or switched to road tankers. The markings on most of these models are clearly pre-war, and will need some amendment for later periods, even where most of the livery might have remained intact. The only release (so far) of definite benefit to the BR-era modeller, is the Mobil one, notwithstanding the red buffer beams, which should be black. Did Oxford copy those from a preserved example to which some latter-day H&S thinking has been applied, I wonder? John Thank you both for your erudite contributions which I welcome .On weathering , I’ve gone for a smudge of track dirt on the under frame and a hint of rainwater streaks on the tanks . Ken 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
1466 Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 On 09/10/2020 at 13:15, 1466 said: Thank you both for your erudite contributions which I welcome .On weathering , I’ve gone for a smudge of track dirt on the under frame and a hint of rainwater streaks on the tanks . Ken Any thoughts on stains or spillage around the filler ? I believe discharge was from a valve under the tank . Thanks . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porcy Mane Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 30 minutes ago, 1466 said: I believe discharge was from a valve under the tank . For a class A tank (Benzole or any of its Fractionations in this case) during the timescale of your livery, the tank would have been emptied from the top via a siphon tube after loosening its associated vent plug. The blanked siphon tub flange and vent plug can be seen in this pic on Nat. Benzole tank, No. 174. P 2 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJS1977 Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 Slightly off-topic, but if anyone needs any photos of the underside of an LMS 20 ton tank wagon, let me know. I spent a couple of hours under one today and I suspect (weather and Covid permitting) that it won't be the last time I'll be going under it! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Saunders Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 4 hours ago, RJS1977 said: Slightly off-topic, but if anyone needs any photos of the underside of an LMS 20 ton tank wagon, let me know. I spent a couple of hours under one today and I suspect (weather and Covid permitting) that it won't be the last time I'll be going under it! intriguing which tank and where was it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainwright1 Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 (edited) On 08/10/2020 at 15:33, 1466 said: I apologise in advance for my vague replies. First of all I lived in Mitcham which was the location of one of Benzole’s sites . So a personal connection. Secondly , Mitcham was in Southern Railway and then Southern Region territory . So it is entirely possible a Benzole tanker would be appropriate for a Southern layout . Third , all petrol was “pooled “ during the war so all tankers would have been shared and therefore ubiquitous. You can run any tanker anywhere credibly as they would have travelled widely . The “pool” arrangements ceased around 1952, I think , and branded petrol was marketed . I’m persuaded you could run any of the pre war tankers , if you wish . Probably weathered . Any livery introduced say post 1952 would be anomalous since new liveries were only slowly introduced .Everything was still rationed immediately post war . But , most importantly, Rule 1 applies . The Oxford tankers have been well reviewed and I’m pleased with mine . Usual disclaimer. Could you advise precisely where the Benzol depot was in Mitcham ? I have looked at the small print on the solebar which says Church Path, Mitcham, but I assume that it was an office address rather than the depot. Many thanks Ray Edited October 24, 2020 by wainwright1 To add details Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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