mikesndbs Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 Evening. Just taken delivery of two of the Shell/B.P. tank wagons 1061 I have to say they are lovely and very accurate. I don't understand the 10/12t idea, while these existed the 14t version way out numberted them. They only slight issue I have is the inclusion of SM in front of the number on the manhole sides. Surely, this only happened once tanks were anonymised after being pooled during the war to indicate the original owner? But that said the livery looks to be a narrow 1939-1942 to me with the tank being built in 1925. Truly stunning 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted June 25, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 25, 2021 (edited) On 22/06/2021 at 15:34, Wickham Green too said: That page doesn't seem to exist = error 404 try http://igg.org.uk/gansg/12-linind/petrol.htm Edited June 25, 2021 by TheSignalEngineer 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted June 25, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 25, 2021 These are certainly a bargain Wagon when compared to the cost of a Bachman version and around £27. 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted June 25, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 25, 2021 (edited) 52 minutes ago, mikesndbs said: Evening. Just taken delivery of two of the Shell/B.P. tank wagons 1061 I have to say they are lovely and very accurate. I don't understand the 10/12t idea, while these existed the 14t version way out numberted them. They only slight issue I have is the inclusion of SM in front of the number on the manhole sides. Surely, this only happened once tanks were anonymised after being pooled during the war to indicate the original owner? But that said the livery looks to be a narrow 1939-1942 to me with the tank being built in 1925. Truly stunning There are published post-war pictures of both silver and black tanks in ex-works condition, with full branding restored but with the SM prefixes still in evidence. It was discussed at some length earlier in the thread, but the application of the prefixes seems to have continued until 1948/9, and they probably remained in place until wagons next visited the paint shop thereafter. John Edited June 25, 2021 by Dunsignalling 1 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikesndbs Posted June 26, 2021 Share Posted June 26, 2021 (edited) 12 hours ago, Dunsignalling said: There are published post-war pictures of both silver and black tanks in ex-works condition, with full branding restored but with the SM prefixes still in evidence. It was discussed at some length earlier in the thread, but the application of the prefixes seems to have continued until 1948/9, and they probably remained in place until wagons next visited the paint shop thereafter. John So livery traffic date would be 1947 - 1955 or thereabouts? One wonders what the wagon would have looked like back in 1925 when new! Edited June 26, 2021 by mikesndbs dyslexia kicked in Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted June 26, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 26, 2021 32 minutes ago, mikesndbs said: So livery traffic date would be 1947 - 1955 or thereabouts? One wonders what the wagon would have looked like back in 1925 when new! A photo posted earlier shows a group of Class B tanks taken in 1954 and only a few still have the SM prefixes, so probably around that time-line. The wagon itself might well have remained in service longer, after another repaint or two. Photos indicate that Shell-BP looked after wagons and got their moneys worth out of them. They seem to have finally weeded out most of the remaining smaller ones from the traffic fleet around 1962. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikesndbs Posted June 26, 2021 Share Posted June 26, 2021 Ah problem solved! I have a photo of the exact wagon on the 12th March 1952 taken at Axminster by AE West. So this fits very well with the 1947-55 date range I can scan and post the photo here for historical reference and personal research if required? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted June 26, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 26, 2021 19 minutes ago, mikesndbs said: Ah problem solved! I have a photo of the exact wagon on the 12th March 1952 taken at Axminster by AE West. So this fits very well with the 1947-55 date range I can scan and post the photo here for historical reference and personal research if required? Yes please, Mike. John (an Axminster boy!) 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikesndbs Posted June 26, 2021 Share Posted June 26, 2021 17 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said: Yes please, Mike. John (an Axminster boy!) OK just confirming permissions with the publisher and will share. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted June 26, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 26, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, mikesndbs said: OK just confirming permissions with the publisher and will share. I've just come across the photo, too. Completely by chance, and probably not in the same book where you found it as the caption doesn't mention a location, though it clearly is Axminster. The credit is to "Wessex Collection" which, AIUI, was the later custodian of A.E. West's invaluable work. The 4mm Wagon, Volume 2, by Geoff Kent (Wild Swan, 1995), top of page 134. The model has suddenly acquired a much greater relevance for me, even if I was only six weeks old when the picture was taken.... John EDIT: "Yours" may be a different photo as, in the same book, on pps 138/9 there are two views of wagon 2794 of the same type, taken at Ashford in 1951 (and without the SM prefix). The model is actually slightly closer to this one than to 1061, as the diagonal underframe stressing rods match better. Edited June 26, 2021 by Dunsignalling 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted June 26, 2021 Share Posted June 26, 2021 9 hours ago, mikesndbs said: One wonders what the wagon would have looked like back in 1925 when new! Well as its not an accurate presentation of the batch of wagons built by Turner in 1921 perhaps less relevant. However, 1061 was a BP wagon and there is a photo of 1168 as BP Motor Spirit in Tourrets book fig 143 which comes from the HMRS Turner collection. It was probably similar to that. There are several similar class A BP tanks from that period in various publications. Paul 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pteremy Posted June 27, 2021 Share Posted June 27, 2021 22 hours ago, Dunsignalling said: I EDIT: "Yours" may be a different photo as, in the same book, on pps 138/9 there are two views of wagon 2794 of the same type, taken at Ashford in 1951 (and without the SM prefix). The model is actually slightly closer to this one than to 1061, as the diagonal underframe stressing rods match better. The real 1061 looks like it has a larger diameter tank - and for that reason, as well as the diagonal stays, I agree that 2794 looks like a closer match for the design that Oxford have modelled. Interesting to note that on the smaller diameter tank 2794 the word 'Shell' is offset to the left of centre, so maybe the choice of 1061 instead was for aesthetic reasons. But I am not going to lose any sleep over a degree of artistic license - they are lovely 'near enough' wagons. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 60027Merlin Posted June 28, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 28, 2021 For information if anyone is interested, Harburn Hobbies in Edinburgh have now received their limited run of the Briggs of Dundee tanker, photographs in their web site. 3 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikesndbs Posted June 28, 2021 Share Posted June 28, 2021 (edited) By kind permission from Crécy Publishing Limited https://www.crecy.co.uk/ who now own the rights to the book Non-Pool Freight Stock 1948-1968 by David larkin I am pleased to share for historical and personal research the photo of tank wagon SM1061. I've also now done a video review of my models which shows off the amazing detail. How nice to have a proper cradle mounted tank wagon! If you wish you can play the video here and look at the photo at the same time to compare. Edited June 28, 2021 by mikesndbs Extra info 6 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted June 28, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 28, 2021 4 minutes ago, mikesndbs said: By kind permission from Crécy Publishing Limited https://www.crecy.co.uk/ who now own the rights to the book Non-Pool Freight Stock 1948-1968 by David larkin I am pleased to share for historical and personal research the photo of tank wagon SM1061. I've also now done a video review of my models which shows off the amazing detail. How nice to have a proper cradle mounted tank wagon! Thanks, Mike, I have the book but hadn't spotted the photo as it's grouped separately from the main run of Shell-BP pictures. It is the same one that is reproduced in The 4mm Wagon Volume 2. John 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikesndbs Posted June 28, 2021 Share Posted June 28, 2021 6 minutes ago, mikesndbs said: By kind permission from Crécy Publishing Limited https://www.crecy.co.uk/ who now own the rights to the book Non-Pool Freight Stock 1948-1968 by David larkin I am pleased to share for historical and personal research the photo of tank wagon SM1061. I've also now done a video review of my models which shows off the amazing detail. How nice to have a proper cradle mounted tank wagon! If you wish you can play the video here and look at the photo at the same time to compare. Oh I see inaccuracies on the model now, the wires pass behind the bands whereas the stays are in front, also the stays affix to the outside of the sole bar. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikesndbs Posted June 28, 2021 Share Posted June 28, 2021 1 minute ago, Dunsignalling said: Thanks, Mike, I have the book but hadn't spotted the photo as it's grouped separately from the main run of Shell-BP pictures. It is the same one that is reproduced in The 4mm Wagon Volume 2. John Might be John I don't have that book. Glad to help 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
45609 Posted June 28, 2021 Share Posted June 28, 2021 (edited) 11 hours ago, mikesndbs said: Oh I see inaccuracies on the model now, the wires pass behind the bands whereas the stays are in front, also the stays affix to the outside of the sole bar. Agreed, but the more fundamental inaccuracy is the tank diameter and the tank diameter determines where the wires go and the brace rods terminate (i.e. in front or behind the solebar). The real photograph of SM1061 is a 14T class A tank with a barrel diameter in the region of 6'7" (26.3mm). The Oxford model has a barrel diameter of 22.6mm (5'8") and so is actually a 10/12T tank wagon. Oxford Rail describe it as a 12T wagon and that is right. Apart from a couple of other minor mistakes, mentioned earlier in the thread and can be dealt with without too much trouble, it is a good basis for a 10/12T wagon. Golden rule with tank wagons. Find a photo of the one you want and model that. Do not deviate and/or make it up. It is just a pity that such a nice livery of a real tank wagon has been applied to the wrong model. I've bought a couple and, for me, the livery, as nice as it is, will have to go. I'm just a bit perplexed why Oxford picked a 10/12T wagon when the 14T was far more numerous. Morgan Edited June 28, 2021 by 45609 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted June 28, 2021 Share Posted June 28, 2021 Don't Bachmann already do the 14T version though? Jason 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted June 28, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 28, 2021 Oxford Rail could have avoided the issue simply by numbering it 2794 and altering the markings slightly. Shell-BP still had a good number of the smaller tanks in service into the early 1960s, and others have made models of 14T tanks, albeit not as nicely as these would be if appropriately renumbered. John 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted June 28, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 28, 2021 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said: Don't Bachmann already do the 14T version though? Jason Very approximately in the case of their older models, thought the anchor-mount ones are rather better. John Edited June 28, 2021 by Dunsignalling 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
45609 Posted June 28, 2021 Share Posted June 28, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said: Very approximately in the case of their older models, thought the anchor-mount ones are rather better. John Agree re the old 14T cradle mount tank wagon. Without mentioning the underframe the Bachmann anchor mounts also have problems with tank diameter and length. So, it is about the definition of "better". It is neither fish nor fowl on diameter for Class A and Class B wagons and only accurate on length for a 14T wagon. It is closest to a 14T class B when all things considered but it's not perfect. Many liveries that it has been released in are therefore inaccurate but of course it is about your own personal sensitivities to what compromises you can accept. Yes, 2794 would have been the best choice for the Oxford Class A SHELL/BP livery but then you'd still need to change the axle box fronts. As I said. Model what you see not what you think is there. Applies to manufacturers as much as it does to the individual Morgan Edited June 28, 2021 by 45609 additional comment 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted June 28, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 28, 2021 (edited) I think the crux of the problem is that manufacturers need to offer their models in a variety of liveries to spread the cost of tooling. If, in the case of tank wagons, they make six liveries and the model is (hopefully) dead right for one of them, it will inevitably be wrong in various ways for the rest. Unfortunately, even the large operators only bought new tank wagons in quite small batches, and standardisation (except in respect of RCH-compliant running gear) was not a word they used much! The overall appearance of the Oxford wagon is pretty good until one starts digging deeper and it is certainly no worse than any other r-t-r tank wagons since the surprisingly decent 12' wb. Airfix 20-tonner of yore. Fortunately, Oxford went for getting their S-BP tank "nearly right" (number notwithstanding) rather than Bachmann's approach which seems to have been to list all the dimensions and design the models using an average of them! I'll therefore tolerate their shortcomings, at least until I've dealt with all the less tolerable items on my to-do list! I'll also be seeking out the slowest-selling/most discounted versions for with a view to combining their rather good underframes with parts of my Bachmann ones to produce more convincing 14-tonners. John Edited June 28, 2021 by Dunsignalling 1 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikesndbs Posted June 28, 2021 Share Posted June 28, 2021 For me, I still think it's the best tank wagon model out there. It's interesting to come across the real thing and compare but for me at least I am happy but would of course welcome more accuracy. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
26power Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 On 28/06/2021 at 08:01, 60027Merlin said: For information if anyone is interested, Harburn Hobbies in Edinburgh have now received their limited run of the Briggs of Dundee tanker, photographs in their web site. Thanks, wasn’t aware of this. Link to relevant website page: https://www.harburnhobbies.co.uk/acatalog/Oxford-Diecast-OR76TK2008-00-Gauge--Briggs--Tanker-5552.html#SID=147 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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