Gladiator WW2 Railgun

[bigherb]

19 minutes ago, SDJR7F88 said:

A look at eagerly anticipated 00 Gauge BL 13.5 inch Howitzer Railgun "Gladiator" from Oxford Rail.
 

 

Boche Buster was the howitzer, the three 13.5 inch where long range guns at 27, 1/4 miles maximum.

[No Decorum]

I love it! The firing sequence is most ingenious. Thanks, Callum.

[JSpencer]

2 hours ago, Mike Harvey said:

 

At least 12 miles would be enough to target enemy shipping in the Channel.

 

It would be extremely unlikely to hit anything. A ship would be constantly moving, meaning the gun would need constant tweeks for range and traverse. On a battleship this was done automatically between the fire control computer and the turrets/guns using either "follow the pointer" systems (a user constantly setting the gun with a dial) or remote power control (servo motors). Neither of which existed on a rail gun. The other thing is a battleship would fire a salvo (4 shots), a director aloft would observe the fall of shot vis-a-vis the target, make corrections, then fire another salvo and repeat every 30 seconds until the target was found (straddle). A rail gun has one shot and takes minutes to reload and set up.

If it was getting close to the target, the ship could salvo chase, a sort of zig zag to put the ship towards the splashes so he over estimates and misses. Zig zagging alone would mess up the crude calculations for a rail gun but seriously doubt that any ship captain would have been worried. 

[SDJR7F88]

33 minutes ago, bigherb said:

Boche Buster was the howitzer, the three 13.5 inch where long range guns at 27, 1/4 miles maximum.

Thanks for the info. Been on some sights and it quotes Howitzer on the model. Will change it in the morning

[JSpencer]

 

4 minutes ago, SDJR7F88 said:

Thanks for the info. Been on some sights and it quotes Howitzer on the model. Will change it in the morning

 

The weapon looks like the 18in howitzer. The lining on the end of the barrel is far too thin for a 13.5in gun. The 18in is Wrong for Gladiator in WWII and would be only correct for Boche Buster in WWII.

Edited February 20, 2019 by JSpencer

[SDJR7F88]

25 minutes ago, No Decorum said:

I love it! The firing sequence is most ingenious. Thanks, Callum.

Thanks ever so much! Was good fun doing that. Was nothing more than a bit of sound dubbing (from the effects a electronic piano), a camera flash and a quick push of the finger out of shot

Currently working on something special with a friend, so stay tuned for hopefully something very special.

[Fat Controller]

10 hours ago, bigherb said:

Boche Buster was the howitzer, the three 13.5 inch where long range guns at 27, 1/4 miles maximum.

If you visit Calais, you can see the limits of the range of the long-range guns; for several hundred metres inland, there are very few pre-WW2 buildings even partially extant. If you then take the coast road via Bleriot Plage and Coquelles to Cap Blanc Nez, you will find lots of shell craters clustered around the former German coastal batteries. When I first saw these, I thought they were rabbit warrens, until I calculated how big the beasts would have to be.

[The Stationmaster]

15 hours ago, jonhall said:

 

Not to mention that IIRC the Nord-pas-de -Calais wasn't occupied in WW1 so the French might have objected to being shelled by their allies, the calibre is wrong (consequently so is the range quoted) , I'm not sure on that basis if I even believe Rails have had their shop redecorated, since I only have their word for it. I had to stop watching....

 

 

Jon

Somebody has probably got their wars mixed up - I suspect they mean WWII and not WWI .  This is Wiki so treat with care but it is informative about British coastal guns in that area in WWII (the railway guns would have served in France in WWI of course)

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dover_Strait_coastal_guns

[jonhall]

7 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Somebody has probably got their wars mixed up - I suspect they mean WWII and not WWI .  This is Wiki so treat with care but it is informative about British coastal guns in that area in WWII (the railway guns would have served in France in WWI of course)

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dover_Strait_coastal_guns

 

Exactly my point, and if that was the only error I'd of let it past, but almost every fact in the bit of the video I watched was wrong! I suspect a lot of people expect Rails to know what they are talking about, and believe that garbage!

 

Jon

[JSpencer]

Japanease 14In weapons. Two Armstrong manufactured guns intended for Japan were fitted to railway mounts and used in France in WWI. Interior tube length, 1646.9cm or 45.83 calibres (rifle bore 38.16 calibres).

Edit: In UK this was Known as the 14in Mk.III

 

Russian 14in weapons for the Borodino class, Made by Vickers 3 f,itted to railway mounts, none sent to France being delivered in late 1918. Interior tube full Length  1849 cm or 52 calibres. Rifling 42 calibres.

Edit: In UK this was Known as the 14in Mk.IV

 

No trace of 13.5in being used in these railway mounts in WWI, but in WWII, the 13.5in mk V was used. This had an interior tube length of  625.9 inchs long (45 calibres), 37.7 calibres rifled. Chamber preasure was designed for 20 tonnes per square inch!

 

No info on the army howitzers.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 23, 2019 by JSpencer

[craneman]

As far as I can determine the model has been based upon the large General Arrangement drawing which appears as a throw-clear in the scarce (and expensive) 1924 "Text-Book of Gun Carriages and Gun Mountings". The primary dimensions and details match the drawings well, however, and as you would expect for a model at this price point, the level of detail is rather vestigial. As such the model would appear to be a representation of the mount (properly  a "Bogie trolley Wagon") carrying a 14"/45 Mark III BL gun. If is worth bearing in mind that despite carrying a name such as HMG Boche Buster it was the mount that carried the name, and the gun that was fitted was largely incidental.

 

The model does seem to have some hybrid features carried at different times, and as such isn't completely accurate for either the WW1 or WW2 era, but that it not intended to belittle it; it is in my opinion and excellent representation at a very keen price. It will also be the perfect starting point for someone interested enough and knowledgeable enough to superdetail to a particular period. The only major let-downs for me are the very prominent join line along the length of the gun, the view down the muzzle (easily rectified with a tampion), and the fixed attachment of the platforms on the carriage, rendering the model grossly out of gauge.

 

On the prototype these platforms were, as others have noted, removed for transit, they were stowed in a transverse rack mounted under the extreme aft-end of the carriage (more-or-less directly under the location of the gun's name). The arrangement is clear in the GA drawings in the 1924 "Text-Book", and can also be seen clearly in one photo (on page 62) of John Goodwin's very disappointing 2017 book "Railway Guns" (should you be tempted to buy this book, be aware that it is riddled with errors and generally the text isn't worth reading, but it does include some rare and previously unpublished photos of considerable interest - although you do have to know what they are since the captions are in many cases patently absurd). 

 

The 1924 drawings also make clear the purposes of the platforms, which is quite interesting. The four at the aft end (2 either side) are the "front and rear winch platforms" provided for the operators of the winches for the two derricks, each manual winch having one operator on each side. Working forwards along the carriage the next platforms (the small ones, one either side) are the "sighting platforms" for the gun-layer, these had "U"-shaped handrails (not included on the model) which hinged downwards for travel, and directly in front of the platform on the port side of the mount was the gun sight. Finally, the foremost large platforms (one either side) were the "platforms for elev. numbers", i.e., platforms for the crewmen responsible for operating the elevating gear for the gun (reverting to the RN tradition of referring to particular roles as "numbers", a tradition which, as far as I know, remained in use as recently as the deplorable demise of the Command Field Gun competition). With the platforms removed for travel the brackets to which they affix are prominent, again something not included on the model.

 

Some features of the gun which are not apparent from photos but which are described in the "Text-Book" are interesting. For example, in order to allow clearance for the breech at the maximum elevation of 40 degrees and full recoil, the trunnions are well aft of the gun's CofG. This necessitated the provision of a "balancing cylinder" and mechanism within the carriage, underneath the gun, which was in effect an hydraulic ram to offset the excess muzzle-weight of the gun. Hydraulic services for this and other functions was provided by an 8hp JAP engine within the carriage. A second 8hp JAP engine provided power for the warping winch, located at the muzzle end of the carriage (and somewhat crudely represented on the model). 

 

With the 14" gun firing at high elevation, the "pull" when firing was 420 tons, so the gun was constrained to fire in line with the track only. Despite this, the gun could be traversed two degrees either side of the centreline. Whilst four degrees of traverse may not sound much, firing out to around 35,000 yards this gives a reasonable arc.

 

Overall I think that Oxford has done a great job with this. Whilst the model is undoubtedly not as highly detailed as it could be, I think that Oxford has struck just the right detail level and price point for the model to be a great success, and the base model is accurate enough to allow the sticklers a great starting point for detailing it up. 

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

A number of features, particularly the way in which various hanging cables are moulded, appears to be copied from photos of the 18inch howitzer as is the framing for the sheeting at the muzzle end.  However a  1:76 drawing of the 14inch gun Mk3 on a Railway Truck Mk1 was published in Batchelor & Hogg's s 'Rail Gun' (published by MAP in 1973). and the way in which cables hang in that drawing also matches the model.

[JSpencer]

21 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

A number of features, particularly the way in which various hanging cables are moulded, appears to be copied from photos of the 18inch howitzer as is the framing for the sheeting at the muzzle end.  However a  1:76 drawing of the 14inch gun Mk3 on a Railway Truck Mk1 was published in Batchelor & Hogg's s 'Rail Gun' (published by MAP in 1973). and the way in which cables hang in that drawing also matches the model.

 

Interesting, the MkIII 14inch were the pair of guns intended for Japan.

[Tony Cane]

Hi

Just came across the topic having recently bought one of the models. Previous posts have mentioned other vehicles to go with the gun. Attached are parts scans of the ammunition wagon. Originally built built by The North Eastern Railway for WWI bur reused in WWII.

Two links that have interesting information on these guns that may not have been referenced before are

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/features/railway_howitzer_at_halwill/index.shtml

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/features/index6.shtml

 

Near the bottom of this URL are links to films of the guns

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/e/elham/

 

[Mike Harvey]

There is also a photo taken at the servicing depot at the Stonehall (ex-Colliery) siding of the various French wagons used in connection with provisioning the guns.

[WD1995]

18 hours ago, Tony Cane said:

Hi

Just came across the topic having recently bought one of the models. Previous posts have mentioned other vehicles to go with the gun. Attached are parts scans of the ammunition wagon. Originally built built by The North Eastern Railway for WWI bur reused in WWII.

Two links that have interesting information on these guns that may not have been referenced before are

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/features/railway_howitzer_at_halwill/index.shtml

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/features/index6.shtml

 

Near the bottom of this URL are links to films of the guns

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/e/elham/

 

 

Those drawings are amazing, I've been looking for any information for those ammunition wagons as I'd like to scratch build one. The only information I've found is a pretty decent description of the interior and photos where the wagons in the background, where did you manage to find the drawings for these? 

[PhilJ W]

26 minutes ago, Mike Harvey said:

There is also a photo taken at the servicing depot at the Stonehall (ex-Colliery) siding of the various French wagons used in connection with provisioning the guns.

I understand that the French wagons were used as they were out of gauge for other than the 'ferry' routes, as the guns themselves were out of gauge for a lot of lines this didn't matter so much. Some more photos/details of these wagons would be welcome. 

23 minutes ago, WD1995 said:

 

Those drawings are amazing, I've been looking for any information for those ammunition wagons as I'd like to scratch build one. The only information I've found is a pretty decent description of the interior and photos where the wagons in the background, where did you manage to find the drawings for these? 

I have seen some very clear photographs of these wagons though I can't remember where. It might be an early edition of Back Track or possibly Railways South East. IIRC it was being shunted by one of the LMS jackshaft drive 0-6-0 diesel shunters.

Edited February 25, 2019 by PhilJ W

[WD1995]

I will have to keep an eye out for those magazines then, hopefully I'll drive past Robertsbridge sometime and see if they have any. I've just found online that the 89/90 issue of Railways South East has an article on Railguns so that could be the magazine your thinking of. 

[Mike Harvey]

I think I have mentioned before that there is a photo from the Royal Marines library showing the Stonehall depot. It is a double page spread (Plate 70) in the Middleton Press "Southern Main Lines: Faversham to Dover" ISBN 1-873793-05-7. The van nearest the camera has a peaked roof and no ventilators, whereas most of the other vans have a row of ventilators on a elliptic roof. They also all appear to have a centre sllding door. Given the date they are likely to emanate from the  pre-nationalisation French fleet.

[Tony Cane]

I was sent the drawings many years ago when researching these guns unfortunately I cannot remember from who.

The Ammunition wagon picture is from the IWM Ref FLM 2024, that of the support train is from the Royal Marines museum Ref 2/12/5 (205).

There are drawings of the converted ferry vans in the NRM collection Ref LNER 1/16190D to 7/16190D.

As you can see from list of vehicles, a wide range of vehicles were used to support the railway guns. Most are ferry vans, PILK. No1 and No2 are former Pilkington glass exhibition coaches.

Boche Buster’s support vehicles included LNER 6 wheel passenger brake 2127, and GWR iron mink 59408

 

Railways Southeast Winter 1989/90 does has a very good article on railway guns in Kent during WWII.

Model railway Enthusiast had two articles on British railway guns. Cannot pinpoint the issue, but probably published in the second half of 1996.

[GWR-fan]

While a 12 inch bore the following video shows some of the steps in creating the barrel of a large gun.

 

 

[jonhall]

15 hours ago, Tony Cane said:

I was sent the drawings many years ago when researching these guns unfortunately I cannot remember from who.

The Ammunition wagon picture is from the IWM Ref FLM 2024, that of the support train is from the Royal Marines museum Ref 2/12/5 (205).

There are drawings of the converted ferry vans in the NRM collection Ref LNER 1/16190D to 7/16190D.

As you can see from list of vehicles, a wide range of vehicles were used to support the railway guns. Most are ferry vans, PILK. No1 and No2 are former Pilkington glass exhibition coaches.

Boche Buster’s support vehicles included LNER 6 wheel passenger brake 2127, and GWR iron mink 59408

 

 

Presumably the choice of ferry wagons was to allow the gun(s) and train(s) to be sent to Europe if required without needing to reform it?

 

Jon

[Fat Controller]

1 hour ago, jonhall said:

 

Presumably the choice of ferry wagons was to allow the gun(s) and train(s) to be sent to Europe if required without needing to reform it?

 

Jon

Possibly: it could have been that they simply had to find something to do with a number of non-standard vehicles with fairly large capacity. The larger doors on the vans would have been useful during loading and unloading.

[Mike Harvey]

1 hour ago, jonhall said:

 

Presumably the choice of ferry wagons was to allow the gun(s) and train(s) to be sent to Europe if required without needing to reform it?

 

Jon

 

It would have needed reforming to be loaded to a train ferry or cargo ship. Weight distribution on a train ferry would have been an interesting exercise, and I don't think those guns would have liked any sort of ramp angle. :-)

 

[WD1995]

26 minutes ago, Mike Harvey said:

 

It would have needed reforming to be loaded to a train ferry or cargo ship. Weight distribution on a train ferry would have been an interesting exercise, and I don't think those guns would have liked any sort of ramp angle. :-)

 

 

I believe in WW1 when they shipped the railguns over to France the barrels had to be loaded separately at Chatham due to the nature of the loading ramp, at the bottom of the link is a picture of two of the WW1 guns on a railway ferry. Looks like they managed to get quite a bit loaded onto it, wouldn't like to be on that in choppy water though. 

 

http://www.rail.co.uk/rail-news/2016/railways-and-world-war-1-and-how-they-became-a-vital-wartime-strategic-tool-over-a-century-ago/ 

 

I don't think this has been mentioned before but from what I can gather the 13.5 guns Gladiator, Sceneshifter and Piece-maker where based at Guston tunnel near Dover and then when needed were brought out and fired from a spur (maybe spurs) on the Martin Mill Military Railway.