Gladiator WW2 Railgun

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, jonhall said:

 

Presumably the choice of ferry wagons was to allow the gun(s) and train(s) to be sent to Europe if required without needing to reform it?

 

Jon

Most likely chosen because they were readily available having been stranded in Britain and offered more space than ordinary British vans.  Braking might also have entered into the equation although the vans were possibly air brake only.

[JSpencer]

7 minutes ago, WD1995 said:

 

I believe in WW1 when they shipped the railguns over to France the barrels had to be loaded separately at Chatham due to the nature of the loading ramp, at the bottom of the link is a picture of two of the WW1 guns on a railway ferry. Looks like they managed to get quite a bit loaded onto it, wouldn't like to be on that in choppy water though. 

 

http://www.rail.co.uk/rail-news/2016/railways-and-world-war-1-and-how-they-became-a-vital-wartime-strategic-tool-over-a-century-ago/ 

 

I don't think this has been mentioned before but from what I can gather the 13.5 guns Gladiator, Sceneshifter and Piece-maker where based at Guston tunnel near Dover and then when needed were brought out and fired from a spur (maybe spurs) on the Martin Mill Military Railway. 

 

The weapons here look smaller. Maybe 12in.

[Mike Harvey]

There was a fan of sidings at Swingate, each angled slightly differently to allow the gun to be angled towards its target. There is a video of a gun being fired from there on one of the local (Dover) history Facebook groups.

 

[Fat Controller]

14 minutes ago, Mike Harvey said:

There was a fan of sidings at Swingate, each angled slightly differently to allow the gun to be angled towards its target. There is a video of a gun being fired from there on one of the local (Dover) history Facebook groups.

 

Traces of the sidings used  for these guns could be seen on Google Earth until fairly recently as crop-marks. One curve can still be picked out due to a curved row of trees.  The gun based on the Elham Valley line (Bochebuster) relied on the curvaceous nature of the line to give a selection of firing trajectories. Unlike the others, its principal role was to shell the various Kent beaches in the event of a German invasion.

[PhilJ W]

I would like to see more photographs/details of the stock used on these trains. Is there a list somewhere of continental stock stranded in the UK by the war? (And a list of British stock left on the continent.)

[Tony Cane]

There will certainly be records of ferry vans trapped in the UK during WWII in archives of the REC kept at Kew. The main reason for this is that while away from their home network a charge was made on the current user. This was record of fees due to various continental railways was kept until the wagons returned to their owners. In normal times this would be at most a week or two.

There were 696 wagons trapped by the fall of France, Belgium and Holland, mostly French wagons, many were used in the UK during the war.

A total of 547 ferry vans were loaned to the WD during the war, who converted them to various uses. For example they were used in tank transportation trains to carry stores related to the ramp wagons. The length of the wagons, up to 42 feet, made them preferable for conversion, in particular the vans from Germany and Czechoslovakia.

An example of the paper trail on these wagons, that exists at Kew, is the case of a van that was destroyed by fire while on loan to the WD. Significant paper work was generated between the parties concerned as to the value of the remains, the compensation due, and who was going to pay.

What is remarkable about this incident is that wagon in question was German owned. The fact that the allied bombers were trying, day and night, to destroy as many similar vehicles was of no consequence to the pen pushers, the paper work had to be in order for when peace finally broke out.

[PhilJ W]

34 minutes ago, Tony Cane said:

There will certainly be records of ferry vans trapped in the UK during WWII in archives of the REC kept at Kew. The main reason for this is that while away from their home network a charge was made on the current user. This was record of fees due to various continental railways was kept until the wagons returned to their owners. In normal times this would be at most a week or two.

There were 696 wagons trapped by the fall of France, Belgium and Holland, mostly French wagons, many were used in the UK during the war.

A total of 547 ferry vans were loaned to the WD during the war, who converted them to various uses. For example they were used in tank transportation trains to carry stores related to the ramp wagons. The length of the wagons, up to 42 feet, made them preferable for conversion, in particular the vans from Germany and Czechoslovakia.

An example of the paper trail on these wagons, that exists at Kew, is the case of a van that was destroyed by fire while on loan to the WD. Significant paper work was generated between the parties concerned as to the value of the remains, the compensation due, and who was going to pay.

What is remarkable about this incident is that wagon in question was German owned. The fact that the allied bombers were trying, day and night, to destroy as many similar vehicles was of no consequence to the pen pushers, the paper work had to be in order for when peace finally broke out.

Sounds like a subject worthy of its own thread. I should imagine that in the case of British stock it would be more complicated as much of it would have been abandoned by the British army at the time of the Dunkirk withdrawal. Any other stock in civilian hands could have been commandeered by the German occupying forces.

[Fat Controller]

51 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

Sounds like a subject worthy of its own thread. I should imagine that in the case of British stock it would be more complicated as much of it would have been abandoned by the British army at the time of the Dunkirk withdrawal. Any other stock in civilian hands could have been commandeered by the German occupying forces.

There was apparently a Hungarian live-fish wagon which generated an awful lot of paperwork, as when it was left behind in the UK, Hungary was not a belligerent. I met a chap who had started out his 'Foreign Office' career working on matters like this- he later wrote a couple of articles on modelling ferry wagons in Continental Modeller. 

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, PhilJ W said:

Sounds like a subject worthy of its own thread. I should imagine that in the case of British stock it would be more complicated as much of it would have been abandoned by the British army at the time of the Dunkirk withdrawal. Any other stock in civilian hands could have been commandeered by the German occupying forces.

It's complicated enough when it comes to the Dean Goods which fell into German hands so I would think it might have been even more complicated in respect of wagons.

[JSpencer]

Some pics comparing Gladiator to a Lima German K5 (HO gauge). fWIW, there is still a K5 preserved in France just south of Calais along the coast. Amazing countries go to great efforts to preserved captured railway mounts (there is a K4 in the US as well) but always scrap their own. Maybe we could start a fund to build a brand new Gladiator. Fully working!

 

On my layout, the new gun is only suited to the platform free outer circuit, or she would be if I remove the overhead wire pylons.

Edited February 26, 2019 by JSpencer
Correct K4 to K5

[PhilJ W]

2 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

Some pics comparing Gladiator to a Lima German K4 (HO gauge). fWIW, there is still a K4 preserved in France just south of Calais along the coast. Amazing countries go to great efforts to preserved captured railway mounts (there is a K4 in the US as well) but always scrap their own. Maybe we could start a fund to build a brand new Gladiator. Fully working!

 

On my layout, the new gun is only suited to the platform free outer circuit, or she would be if I remove the overhead wire pylons.

There's also a German WW1 gun captured by the Australians. 

[bigherb]

2 hours ago, JSpencer said:

Some pics comparing Gladiator to a Lima German K5 (HO gauge). fWIW, there is still a K5 preserved in France just south of Calais along the coast. Amazing countries go to great

 

 

It's had a paint job recently too.

[JSpencer]

8 hours ago, bigherb said:

It's had a paint job recently too.

 

The problem of storing these things next to the sea.

 

[bigherb]

2 hours ago, JSpencer said:

 

The problem of storing these things next to the sea.

 

Indeed. Although Krupp steel seems to hold up well.

 

This was one of the homes for the K5 in a quarry rail tunnel at Sangatte. A Vogle firing turntable would have been outside on the quarry floor.

 

 

[Fat Controller]

Where is that tunnel at Sangatte? I thought I'd seen most of the WW2 relics in the area; my place of work is on the site of a Luftwaffe aerodrome.

 

[bigherb]

2 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

Where is that tunnel at Sangatte? I thought I'd seen most of the WW2 relics in the area; my place of work is on the site of a Luftwaffe aerodrome.

 

It is in the quarry where they do motorbike scrambling, but you have to access from above, if your fat you won't get in.

 

Then down the spiral staircase.

[Fat Controller]

Thanks for that; I'll think I'll pass on that experience, as I'm longer that lithe and fit (if I ever was).

Incidentally, here's a link to an aerial view from Google, illustrating the 'rabbit warren':-

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/62231+Sangatte,+France/@50.9230366,1.7195791,493m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x47dc3c3b4a4188a9:0x40af13e8163d550!8m2!3d50.946696!4d1.756665?hl=en

The building in the centre of the image, used to be a restaurant, run by the parents of a colleague. It was built on the top of a former German bunker; their original plan was to demolish the bunker, and build a house on the site, but nothing they could access legitimately would touch the structure. They decided to cut their losses, build a restaurant on top, and use the bunker as storage, as well as installing a small museum about the Channel Tunnel.

Edited February 27, 2019 by Fat Controller
adding image and text

[bigherb]

51 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

The building in the centre of the image, used to be a restaurant, run by the parents of a colleague. It was built on the top of a former German bunker; their original plan was to demolish the bunker, and build a house on the site, but nothing they could access legitimately would touch the structure. They decided to cut their losses, believe a restaurant on top, and use the bunker as storage, as well as installing a small museum about the Channel Tunnel.

2

Been there, it was closed, I believe it was part of the radar for Batterie Lindeman which is now submerged under the cooling water lake for the tunnel.

[Paperlad]

I had a bash at weathering mine but I'm no expert and the result could have been better (I can't really blame the phonecam either). I figured that even if I ruined it it wouldn't be outrageously expensive to replace it.

 

PS. the layout is a work in progress too!

[SDJR7F88]

Following my recent video of the eagerly anticipated 00 Gauge BL 13.5 inch Howitzer Railgun "Gladiator" from Oxford Rail, Sam of Sam'sTrains has kindly edited some shots together of this mighty Railgun firing!
The edit features the recoil, followed by the shock-wave, as well as smoke from the barrel and breech, based on archive footage of these Rail Giants in action.
Hope you enjoy!
https://youtu.be/j7Wt46XYyHU

Edited March 6, 2019 by SDJR7F88

[craneman]

What is the black smoke supposed to represent?

[SDJR7F88]

9 minutes ago, craneman said:

What is the black smoke supposed to represent?

In one or two clip me and Sam looked at of similar guns firing, there appeared be some smoke around the breech. Weather this was only on other types of gun or were the breech was opened shortly after I don't know, so Sam added it in. The effect did come out much darker than we hoped, but at the end of the day it was just a bit of fun.

[craneman]

It's a good effort, given that the limitations of the model restrict the scope of what is possible (for example the barrel cannot recoil because it is fixed). There would be a certain amount of combustion byproduct of cordite from the breech once the breech is opened, but the barrel has to be lowered to near horizontal before this can happen.  It was the volume of black smoke with the gun elevated that had me puzzled (imagine a battleship firing a similar gun from a twin, triple, or even quad mount, and think what would happen to the gun crew if there was that much gas)!

 

Cracking little video though, nice work.

[PhilJ W]

There would be very little smoke from firing the gun as 'smokeless' charges were developed during WW1 and used throughout WW2. The reason was the same as the use of diesel locomotives to move the guns, clouds of smoke would give the position of the gun away.

[SDJR7F88]

Thanks for the info guys! Will try this out in a future edit

Edited March 6, 2019 by SDJR7F88