RMweb Gold Argos Posted September 8, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 8, 2018 You have me there. I've no idea what the typical repainting cycle might be. The LNWR repainted their wagons every seven years, I doubt the Midland or any other of the major lines would be that different. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Regularity Posted September 9, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 9, 2018 The LNWR repainted their wagons every seven years, I doubt the Midland or any other of the major lines would be that different.Presumably that applied to most wagons, but the occasional example lasted a bit longer? Either way, it is a useful marker for getting proportions right to suit an era. The LNWR went from logo (“illiteracy markers”) only up to 1908 to logo+lettering to lettering only from 1912, so a layout set on that system in say, summer 1914, would have roughly 35% (2.5 years of wagons in lettering only, 56% in lettering plus logo, and the remaking 9% in slightly shabby logo only. This does ignore the impact of new builds replacing withdrawn stock, but hopefully the concept is clear! The cognoscenti would recognise this immediately, and it would form an interesting discussion point with observant viewers who were not LNWR aficionados. Similar calculations apply to other railways! I believe that coaching stock was generally repainted more frequently, every 3-4 years, but this would not always apply to the more superannuated vehicles held in store as extras for holiday periods and used for workmen’s trains. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 Rub-down and revarnish was common with coaches, and the 3-4 span may reflect that, rather than a full re-paint. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Rixon Posted September 15, 2018 Author Share Posted September 15, 2018 This week's wagon is a long way from its home system. It was built from a 51L kit, and that kit was an impulse buy at a show, back in 2010. There's no particular story as to why this wagon is at Strand goods. I post this here to record the shear relief at finally having got this one finished. It was put together quickly (too quickly, looking at the photo) and then went completely to pot in the painting. It sat in the cupboard glowering at me for eight years and underwent three complete strip-downs and repaints. Now, I'm happy enough with it, although it is still too clean and needs an oil wash. Transfers are by HMRS; nobody else seems to do GSWR. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted September 15, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 15, 2018 (edited) I've been fancying doing one of these for a while - of the G&SW wagons 51L do, this is I think the only one early enough for my c. 1903 date. Examples must occasionally have worked down to the Midlands via the Settle & Carlisle! What vexes me is the livery - when did the G&SW adopt large initials and what were they doing beforehand? Also, is anything known about G&SW wagon sheets at this date? Hoping a 'Sou West Association member is reading! Edited September 15, 2018 by Compound2632 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caley Jim Posted September 15, 2018 Share Posted September 15, 2018 ............There's no particular story as to why this wagon is at Strand goods. I've seen a photo of the inside of one of the London goods depots (Camden? ) with a CR open wagon present, so there's no reason why one from the Sou' West couldn't make it that far also. As to wagon lettering and sheet details, my old sparring partner Ian should be able to help you out. Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Rixon Posted September 16, 2018 Author Share Posted September 16, 2018 I've been playing with oil washes on some wagons and am rather pleased with the early results. This was the test wagon before washing. It's a RTR wagon wearing a real livery in an improbably shade of red: pink as a NSE lamp-post. The wash darkens the colour to something more plausible, tones down the too-bright lettering and varies the tone of colour to make it less toy-like. This one is only lightly washed and could perhaps use more grime. It was photographed just after washing, so still looks wet. I think it will be matt again when the wash dries out. The same treatment on the D376 vans. The effect is a bit stronger here as the body colour is lighter. I wash these before lettering as I want the lettering to stay clean (simulating special, oxalic paint). Finally, the GSWR wagon featured yesterday got washed. It wasn't in pristine condition before, but I think it looks more plausible now. The wash on the solebar is deliberately heavier than on the body (to be more exact, less of the wash has been wiped off the solebars) and the photo shows where I missed a bit behind the brake lever - I'll go back and do this later. This is a really easy technique, using only the cheapest artist's oil paint and thinners. I pipette thinners into a tiny jar and contaminate it with a tiny amount of brown (burnt umber) paint. I squeeze a pea-sized blob of back paint onto a palette and thin it down to a wash by carrying dirty thinners from the jar to the palette on the brush, which was a 7mm flat. I then daub the wash over the wagon until it looks like it's been sprayed with molasses - heavy coating, no subtlety at this stage. Finally, I wipe off the wash from the flat surfaces with cotton buds and scraps of tissue paper. The grot remains in the corners and cracks between the planks, with a very thin film on the main surfaces. It's much easier (for me) than weathering with powders or with an airbrush. Humbrol will sell you pre-mixed enamel washes for weathering. IMHO they are utter crap and should not be allowed within 100 yards of a decent model. For the price of the pre-mix you can get the oil paint, thinners and a brush to go with it. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Rixon Posted September 17, 2018 Author Share Posted September 17, 2018 (edited) It seems to be the time for black-washing things: I've just done it to the dogs. Last night, around bedtime, we found that they had stolen and eaten a dangerous amount of chocolate. We took them to the vet where they were made expensively sick (I could get throwing-up drunk for much less, even on single malt) and I spent the night feeding them charcoal in aqueous suspension...which looks exactly like the oil-wash on the wagons! It's filthy stuff and Rosie, our Westie, has been in black-face all night. I can confirm that white dogs do not look better when weathered. PS: both dogs now fully recovered. Edited September 17, 2018 by Guy Rixon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 I've been playing with oil washes on some wagons and am rather pleased with the early results. IMG_5803.jpg This was the test wagon before washing. It's a RTR wagon wearing a real livery in an improbably shade of red: pink as a NSE lamp-post. IMG_5805.jpg The wash darkens the colour to something more plausible, tones down the too-bright lettering and varies the tone of colour to make it less toy-like. This one is only lightly washed and could perhaps use more grime. It was photographed just after washing, so still looks wet. I think it will be matt again when the wash dries out. IMG_5807.jpg The same treatment on the D376 vans. The effect is a bit stronger here as the body colour is lighter. I wash these before lettering as I want the lettering to stay clean (simulating special, oxalic paint). IMG_5809.jpg Finally, the GSWR wagon featured yesterday got washed. It wasn't in pristine condition before, but I think it looks more plausible now. The wash on the solebar is deliberately heavier than on the body (to be more exact, less of the wash has been wiped off the solebars) and the photo shows where I missed a bit behind the brake lever - I'll go back and do this later. This is a really easy technique, using only the cheapest artist's oil paint and thinners. I pipette thinners into a tiny jar and contaminate it with a tiny amount of brown (burnt umber) paint. I squeeze a pea-sized blob of back paint onto a palette and thin it down to a wash by carrying dirty thinners from the jar to the palette on the brush, which was a 7mm flat. I then daub the wash over the wagon until it looks like it's been sprayed with molasses - heavy coating, no subtlety at this stage. Finally, I wipe off the wash from the flat surfaces with cotton buds and scraps of tissue paper. The grot remains in the corners and cracks between the planks, with a very thin film on the main surfaces. It's much easier (for me) than weathering with powders or with an airbrush. Humbrol will sell you pre-mixed enamel washes for weathering. IMHO they are utter crap and should not be allowed within 100 yards of a decent model. For the price of the pre-mix you can get the oil paint, thinners and a brush to go with it. Interesting. I have just ordered some of that Tamiya panel lining stuff, so I had better get some use out of that, but I do like your idea very much, and the results are impressive. Glad the dogs are OK. The self-destructive traits of dogs and children .... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Rixon Posted September 18, 2018 Author Share Posted September 18, 2018 (edited) I understand that the Tamiya washes are good. I haven't used them, but they feature in some of the Plasmo videos. I still think that the oil paints do the same job for less money. Mr. Damek uses them too, sometimes. Edited September 18, 2018 by Guy Rixon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Rixon Posted September 21, 2018 Author Share Posted September 21, 2018 I have a question about the economic handling of bananas sent by rail. I understand about the special vans with climate control, and about ripening the fruit after shipping (e.g. the dedicated ripening-room at Moor Street Goods). I know about block trains leaving the docks (e.g. LNWR from Manchester and later Garston) where several trains would be needed to empty one ship. I know that from about 1870 the trade in imported fruit became massive, greater possibly than all natively grown fruit, and bananas were a big parts of that; bananas were trending before we knew that word. But... If a block-train of banana vans arrives at, say, Camden, who owns all that fruit, who's going to collect it from the goods depot, and to whom are they going to sell it? I have in mind three possible flows. First, the bananas are imported by Fyfes and that company pays to have them shipped to London. Fyfes staff then collect them from whatever goods depot and sell them at the wholesale markets; i.e. their customers are retail greengrocers. Second, Fyfes arrange and pay for the train, as above, but at the London end they sell to intermediary wholesalers who handle the ripening and road transport to the wholesale markets. Fyfes get less money for the fruit but they are saved the hassle of a thousand small sales to the retailers. Third, Fyfes sell to intermediary wholesalers off the boat, probably making those deals before the ship docks. The wholesalers pay the railway for shipping, and receive the goods in London. The choices here make a difference to the railway handling. In the first two options, the bananas are probably a wagon-load cargo and in the third case they are possibly a "smalls" traffic. In the case of Strand, to which the vans are forwarded from Camden, delivery to the market is by an army of fruit porters on foot, and I need to know whether the ports can swarm onto the platform and actually unload their gaffers' vans (and who's checking that they get the right ones) or whether the fruit has to be off-loaded by railway staff and then handed over to the market porters at the depot boundary. For the Strand layout, this is a practical consideration of modelling, as the fruit-handling dock will be front and centre of the model. I've already been written off as "dim" for not understanding the handling patterns at Smithfield, and I'd rather not build anything embarrassingly wrong in Covent Garden. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 (edited) Very interesting question! Even as recently as the 1980s, these sorts of things were 'live issues' around the handling of Royal Mail bags on and off trains where the Post Office had dedicated platforms that 'fed' direct into adjacent main sorting offices, although that might have had as much to do with TU agreements about demarcation as with anything else. At some places, there were also complex rules as to who could use which canteen under what circumstances, but I guess that Strand is set before such facilities were widely provided by employers. I do know from a legal case discussed before, possibly in this thread, that fish was unloaded from the railway vans at railway owned depots,for forwarding to Billingsgate, by railway employees, but who actually carted on to the market I don't know. Edited September 21, 2018 by Nearholmer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Rixon Posted September 21, 2018 Author Share Posted September 21, 2018 Some facts about railway bananas over at Warwickshire Railways. Notably: "In 1901 Elder Dempster & Co. established a base at Avonmouth Docks, near Bristol for their West Indian liners and by 1904 this had developed into fortnightly service from Port Limon, Costa Rica. The liners carried large consignments of bananas and by 1904 the imports of bananas amounted to 350,000 bunches. To handle the traffic, Elders and Fyffes, constructed a transit shed at Avonmouth from which the Great Western Railway loaded covered wagons (with as many as 400 being required for a single cargo), which were ran in special trains as required." If bananas arrive by sea once per fortnight, are they being stored at Avonmouth and sent out at intervals over the two weeks until the next ship? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian@stenochs Posted September 22, 2018 Share Posted September 22, 2018 I've been fancying doing one of these for a while - of the G&SW wagons 51L do, this is I think the only one early enough for my c. 1903 date. Examples must occasionally have worked down to the Midlands via the Settle & Carlisle! What vexes me is the livery - when did the G&SW adopt large initials and what were they doing beforehand? Also, is anything known about G&SW wagon sheets at this date? Hoping a 'Sou West Association member is reading! Hi, The large G&SW lettering came in with Jame Manson circa 1895. Prior to that ownership was on a cast iron plate which included the number on the sole bar. Even after the large painted lettering became the norm the plates were still carried. Wagon sheets were a mid grey with G&SW and the number on each long side. These wagons were for general merchandise so could be found anywhere. There were quite a number of industries on the system who would send goods by rail in Sou’West wagons. Glenfield and Kennedy in Kilmarnock manufactured most of the valves and fittings used in water works and hydraulic systems, Johnstone had many firms making machine tools, particularly saws, and there were lots of thread and cloth makers in Paisley but other places too. Ayrshire is known for the early potatoes grown on the Clyde Coast and there was a thriving timber trade so every excuse fo4 having a ‘foreign’ wagon on your line. Incedently I have seen a period photo of Kilkerran Station, quite a small remote village, with about 10 wagons in the yard. Not one is a G&SW one but there is an SE&CR wagon and two LNWR ones! Ian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagonman Posted September 22, 2018 Share Posted September 22, 2018 Hi, Incedently I have seen a period photo of Kilkerran Station, quite a small remote village, with about 10 wagons in the yard. Not one is a G&SW one but there is an SE&CR wagon and two LNWR ones! Ian. Crucial question: what 'period'? If post 1916 or so then the common user arrangement would be in force and it would not be at all unusual to see wagons from all over the country lurking in rural goods yards. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagonman Posted September 22, 2018 Share Posted September 22, 2018 As I understand it Elders & Fyffe owned the ships and the on-shore storage facilities from where the fruit would be sent to wholesale markets. I know that in the 1960s they bought out a couple of their wholesalers – George Monro Ltd was the Covent Garden based company (my uncle was a director). But in Edwardian days they were still fairly small-time. The distinctive blue label didn't come into use until 1929. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagonman Posted September 22, 2018 Share Posted September 22, 2018 Here is a photo of a string of banana vans at Avonmouth c1930 courtesy of the GWSG 'Pannier'. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Rixon Posted September 23, 2018 Author Share Posted September 23, 2018 As I understand it Elders & Fyffe owned the ships and the on-shore storage facilities from where the fruit would be sent to wholesale markets. I know that in the 1960s they bought out a couple of their wholesalers – George Monro Ltd was the Covent Garden based company (my uncle was a director). But in Edwardian days they were still fairly small-time. The distinctive blue label didn't come into use until 1929. Thanks, that's useful. Strand no. 3 goods shed is, hypothetically, a railway-owned warehouse in Bedford Street, Covent Garden. Is it plausible that Elders and Fyffe, or other banana-importing organizations, could rent space here for banana ripening rooms? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagonman Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 Thanks, that's useful. Strand no. 3 goods shed is, hypothetically, a railway-owned warehouse in Bedford Street, Covent Garden. Is it plausible that Elders and Fyffe, or other banana-importing organizations, could rent space here for banana ripening rooms? I can't give you a definitive answer on that, I'm afraid. The Avonmouth facility was indeed a transit shed. The fruit went more or less straight from ship to train. Unfortunately the PANNIER article concentrated on the wagons rather than their destination(s). They definitely had their own space in the Covent Garden area though, even in the early 1900s. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Rixon Posted September 23, 2018 Author Share Posted September 23, 2018 I've just looked through Birmingham Moor Street Station by Ian Baxter and Richard Harper (pub. KRM 2010, ISBN 978 0 9534775 9 3). It has a sequence of pictures concerning bananas and their vans in Moor Street B shed; these are post nationalisation. I can't post scans because copyright, but the captions confirm that Geest bananas were being shipped to Birmingham and Francis Nicholls Ltd. had ripening rooms at Moor Street goods. The pictures show the bananas being unwrapped from bags and individual, trimmed hands of fruit being moved by overhead conveyer to the ripening room. It doesn't actually show the ripening facility, so I don't know how much space was provided. It's an excellent book for anybody interested in goods stations. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Rixon Posted September 23, 2018 Author Share Posted September 23, 2018 I've also found, in the history Birmingham New Street vol 2, a reference to Birmingham potato merchants operating directly from the "top" yard at Curzon Street goods and selling potatoes directly from railway property. Apparently the LNWR blessed this arrangement and later roofed over the potato market to improve trading conditions. The potato merchant eventually moved out when the city built its wholesale markets and were all gone by 1910. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Rixon Posted September 25, 2018 Author Share Posted September 25, 2018 The first of the D376 vans had got to this stage, with which I was cautiously pleased. I then went searching for picture of these vans, hoping to recover a couple of running numbers. No photos, but I found the original GA! (Image credit Midland Railway Study Centre, released under licence CC BY-NC 4.0.) Well damn. It's drawn with long springs and Spencer's pads as secondary springing, while my model has short springs and plain spring-shoes. Cue frantic plans to get the solebars of the model and maybe swap them with parts cut down from a D361 kit... On reflection, I think this is another case of the vans not being built exactly to the GA. I think the short springs are right. My reasoning is that the weight diagram, in Essery, shows a load of 8 tons, which is consistent with other short-spring vans that are through piped, whereas D361, which is AVB fitted and definitely has the long springs is rated at only 5 tons. D361 has bigger journals than D376, so journal size does not explain it, and I don't think you can carry 8 tons onto the long springs, especially at passenger-train speeds. I think that the weight diagrams would probably be updated if wrong, because errors cause problems for the operators, whereas nobody much cares about the GA after the vans get built. What I do need to change is the inner V-hanger, which should be a vertical strap at this period of building. At least that's easy. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted September 25, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 25, 2018 There's all sorts going on with that drawing. For one thing, although the doorway is marked as being 6'0" high, per the diagram for D357/8/9 and D376, it's actually drawn 5'0" high, per all the covered goods wagons built up to 1891 to D353 and D375, i.e. before Lot 309. The 220 vehicles of Lot 309, although taller than previous Lots, were still built to the same drawing 401. After Lot 309, the 16'6" covered goods wagons were introduced, D360/1/2/3/4 and D378. When a large number of D357 covered goods wagons were built in 1903-5, they were to a new drawing 1830. I'm inclined to agree with you about the J-hangered springs being mythical. Looking at the 16'6" diagrams and photos, it's clear that J-hangered springs only go with 3'7" diameter wheels and AVB, along with, as you say, reduced load 5 tons passenger/6 tons goods, derated from 8 tons for the standard vehicles. D376 is noted as fitted with AVB through pipe; all such vehicles have 3'2" wheels and at least pre-1902-ish, grease axleboxes. On the other hand, since there were only six D376 vehicles and, I think, no photos, who's to say for sure? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Rixon Posted September 27, 2018 Author Share Posted September 27, 2018 I speculate that D376 were specified to run in slow passenger trains, perhaps branch-line services and stopping services connecting at branch-line junctions. The long springs might then be abandoned as unnecessary between the vans being drawn and and built. The D361 vans with AVB and long springs would then be the evolution to run in the fast passenger-trains. The fact that the MR went back to through-piped vans after D361 is notable. The SECR had a different approach. Much of their "express" wagon stock had long springs but no brake pipes at all. I.e., even for shuffling around in medium-speed goods-trains, say up to 30 mph, they wanted the better springs and oil boxes. But their long-springed vehicles loaded up to 10 tons. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted September 27, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 27, 2018 I speculate that D376 were specified to run in slow passenger trains, perhaps branch-line services and stopping services connecting at branch-line junctions. The long springs might then be abandoned as unnecessary between the vans being drawn and and built. The D361 vans with AVB and long springs would then be the evolution to run in the fast passenger-trains. The fact that the MR went back to through-piped vans after D361 is notable. The SECR had a different approach. Much of their "express" wagon stock had long springs but no brake pipes at all. I.e., even for shuffling around in medium-speed goods-trains, say up to 30 mph, they wanted the better springs and oil boxes. But their long-springed vehicles loaded up to 10 tons. I suspect that the Midland's fitted and piped fruit vans were built with traffic from the Evesham area in mind - the Gloucester loop didn't see much in the way of express running! The other point to bear in mind is that the traffic might have evolved between the building of D376 in 1893 (along with the 100 earlier low-height D375 vans) and D361 in 1903 - noting also the 100 vans of D378 along the way. I would have thought that only those vehicles with 3'7" wheels and oil axleboxes plus J-hangered springs would have run in passenger trains at all? There were, after all, quite a few passenger-rated fruit vans - D416 - D419 - built in the period 1881 - 1904. As I said, I take that drawing with a pinch of salt, as there's no other example known to me of vehicles with 3'1" wheels, oil axleboxes and J-hanger springs. On the other hand, there were only six of them and there was a lot of experimentation going on in Lot 309 - including roof doors - so who knows. And who's to say that by 1905 they hadn't been rebuilt with ordinary running gear? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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