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Skinnylinny

Great Southern Railway (Fictitious) - Cattle Wagons

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3 minutes ago, Regularity said:

Precisely what a real railway wishes to avoid: we obviously have differing objectives in our search for authenticity.

 

The following examples show just how varied things could be:

 

Blakesley had the cattle dock in a position that was handy for reducing the amount of shunting, but meant driving the cattle through the goods yard. The drawing isn't 100% clear, but there was a single pen on the ramp, and no access to the running line.

1670935181?profile=original

 

Blisworth, N&BJR. The field behind was sometimes used as temporary pasture for cattle if wagons weren't available:

blisworth2.jpg

 

Lydham Heath, Bishop's Castle Railway: right at the end of the engine release (and yes, this does have an impact on the shunting!):

Lydham%20Heath%20station%20-%20Copy%20(1

 

At Bishop's Castle itself, on the loading bank:

bishops%20castle%20station%20-%20Copy.jp

 

Northampton had LNWR cattle dock on the Old Towcester Road, and also for the MR in their goods yard. The cattle market was above the top RH corner of the map.

1901map.gif

 

Plenty of options, but only at Blisworth can I confirm the use of a field for penning the cattle. (No idea what happened at Bishop's Castle, but the others are without such facility.)

 

I totally take your point. But as some places did have cattle docks in seemingly odd places, I like to take advantage to make operation of the layout more interesting. Private sidings likewise.

Presumably, cattle sidings in sub-optimal positions for the railway was to make it easier to drive the cattle to/from the cattle market.

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3 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

Presumably, cattle sidings in sub-optimal positions for the railway was to make it easier to drive the cattle to/from the cattle market.

That is my understanding, but also sometimes placed to reduce the amount of shunting of loaded wagons.

But as with you, that's presumption - cattle by train is long gone in the UK.

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In larger towns, the cattle sidings were often quite separate from the main goods yard - usually handy for the cattle market and/or abattoir.

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One interesting placing can still be seen at Highley on the Severn Valley Railway. It’s fairly clear that the livestock and the wagons weren’t left standing about.95D58C3A-9A46-4C84-AB4B-815ACB6C43CC.jpeg.3afb508472807917b874877bb5dcff69.jpeg

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25 minutes ago, Northroader said:

One interesting placing can still be seen at Highley on the Severn Valley Railway. It’s fairly clear that the livestock and the wagons weren’t left standing about.95D58C3A-9A46-4C84-AB4B-815ACB6C43CC.jpeg.3afb508472807917b874877bb5dcff69.jpeg

 

Quite a lot of GW stations with that sort of set-up.

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On 17/09/2019 at 15:59, Skinnylinny said:

I considered that, but given how flimsy some of the bits are, I'd rather do it beforehand. I don't want to go near this with a paintbrush of anything! At least not until it is firmly glued to something more solid... Flimsy is not the word. Some of these bits can be bent by literally breathing on them funny... 

 

20190905_192216.jpg.89acd8cd309489cd024ae6ec89ad7090.jpg

Sorry if this is rather after the fact, but I recall reading in one of Jim Whittaker's 'Railway Modeller' articles on coach building (c.1971-72) that he used gum arabic rather than any sort of glue for affixing similarly fragile card panelling.

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Trevor Nunn successfully used pva thinned with water (sufficient to work with capillary action) circa 1980. He had a couple of pieces of wood sanded to the profile of the tumblehome, one positive and one negative, and clamped the sides between these (and under a book or two) whilst the water evaporated and the glue set, so as not to create any distortion.

The coaches are still in use. 

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Isn't it nice when things just... fit? The 3D printer finally got unpacked today. It fits snugly under the shelf, taking up minimal actual workbench space except when it has to be pulled out to remove prints (as the door opens upwards). It may end up being moved to somewhere less likely to be knocked if I'm modelling, but for now this will do very nicely.

 

20200122_214350.jpg.8f8b4a61a45579ca55dffe8c0fb0754c.jpg

 

I completely cleaned it out before moving, and have now re-tensioned the FEP film and levelled the print bed. I'm now running my first test print overnight, which should hopefully let me see if everything's up and running properly. It's also a slightly experimental print in and of itself, as I'm trying the cattle wagon without roof or floor, to see if this avoids the warping problem I was having with the Stroudley carriages.

Watch this space!

Edited by Skinnylinny
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Space successfully watched. There is still very slight evidence of warping of the bufferbeams and end stanchions where the body moves from bufferbeam-only to floor-level, but that was partly expected, and I have thoughts on how to deal with that. The body, however, is nice and square!

20200123_080900.jpg

 

Re: the gap between the planking and the outside framing at the floor, this has curved slightly upwards, making the gap a bit bigger than it should be. The drawing of the wagon suggests that there might be short bars or similar between the bottom framing and the bottom plank, although with no photos to verify I left this off. However, I think this would help avoid this curving, so I will add these in.

The extra time spent ensuring a perfect setup of the printer has really paid off. Now I really must finish the end details and the top tie-down rings, so I can print another!

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Would these issues be resolved if the sides and ends were printed as separate pieces in the more-or-less flat?

 

The surfaces look commendably smooth - is this down to improvements in the technology or clever choice of orientation of the print?

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I've considered printing the ends and sides in separate pieces, but:

  • I've never successfully managed a mitred corner on the printer - there's a minimum thickness beyond which the edges don't come out cleanly, if at all.
  • Laying the pieces flat, one either has to cover the entirety of one side with supports (and details don't come out well, if at all, on the bottom face) or print "flat on the bed", in which case one gets a bulge (known as the "elephant's foot" - not that Elephant's Foot) where the part meets the print bed. This is because in order to get the resin to stick to the print bed, you have to expose the bottom few layers for longer, leading to them effectively swelling.

The surface finish on resin prints (as compared to "traditional" filament prints is much smoother. The print was printed flat on the bed as the print is effectively made up of tiny cubic blocks ("voxels"). Because most of the edges on this print are either horizontal or vertical, it makes sense for the print to be printed flat relative to the bed.

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Interesting.

could you print them so that the mitre was more or less correct, but in need of filing back?

Or indeed, put the end posts on the end, but incorporate a small slot into which a tab on the side was inserted?

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14 minutes ago, Regularity said:

Interesting.

could you print them so that the mitre was more or less correct, but in need of filing back?

Or indeed, put the end posts on the end, but incorporate a small slot into which a tab on the side was inserted?

 

Simon's suggestions are the sort of thing I had in mind but @Skinnylinny, I think you've explained convincingly the drawbacks of printing in the flat; I now understand why the body is the appropriate part to be printing in one go. 

Edited by Compound2632
Typing going to pot - "thing" not "think".

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58 minutes ago, Regularity said:

Interesting.

could you print them so that the mitre was more or less correct, but in need of filing back?

Or indeed, put the end posts on the end, but incorporate a small slot into which a tab on the side was inserted?

I could probably print them with a to-be-adjusted mitre, but printing like this means I get a perfect join between the parts and I don't need to do any filing or filling, which is a bonus for me - I'm lazy!

I did consider printing the end posts as part of the end, but then I'd have a join to disguise in the strapping plates. Even more fiddly!

I must say, designing for laser-cutting is much quicker and easier, but the difference in detail possible with printing is vast. In amount of CAD time I have spent on this wagon so far I could have drawn three or four wagons for lasering!

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1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

Typing going to pot - "thing" not "think".

Where I grew up, those words sound indistinguishable (relying entirely on context to convey which is appropriate), which leads to all sorts of spelling problems. (And outsiders always hear the "wrong" word.)

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7 minutes ago, Skinnylinny said:

I could probably print them with a to-be-adjusted mitre, but printing like this means I get a perfect join between the parts and I don't need to do any filing or filling, which is a bonus for me - I'm lazy!

Of course, that had occurred to me, but I didn't want to shoot myself in the foot over it...

 

Investing in the time to learn the required skills is not laziness.

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Now I am very lazy in this regard - Wherever possible I design things to be printed flat against the plate.

 

The cattle wagon looks fantastic, though!!

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You have the same 3D printer as I have. I found thin horizontal items tended to curve, maybe due to the force of the spatula when removing the items off the plate when the printed items are still soft. Vertical prints were much better. Many suggest 45 degrees to stop the impact of suction creating distortion as the plate lifts up and back down between layers.

 

It seems you have your 3D printer in a domestic setting. I hope you are aware that 3D resin is highly toxic. I made a container tray lined with laminated sheet. I also have an air extractor system. Having said that, I have now purchased (but not yet used) some of Anycubic's plant based non-toxic eco resin.

 

Must say you are making very good progress and producing good stuff at a rate of knots.

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Hi Alan,

I've tried printing at various angles, but I generally find that for square shapes like wagon bodies, flat is the way to go. This print was done with no floor and no roof, in order to minimise large flat areas against the film. 

I'm aware of the toxicity of the resin, but I'm limited by my living accommodation - a rented (ie: no modifications to the room) first-floor (so no garden or garage!) flat in Edinburgh. There will soon be a drip tray, and I'm working with gloves and a mask (with plans to get a proper respirator when funds allow). The only room in the flat with extraction is the bathroom, and there's no power in that room of course! The printer usually gets fairly infrequent use, especially during winter when I don't want to have the windows open! I'm currently looking at some of the fume-reduction bits available on Thingiverse, which allow the fitting of respirator cartridges to the extractor fan outlet on the printer itself.

Thank you - I tend to have various projects on the go at any given time, and swap between them based on my mood/situation. I've had a fair bit of train travel recently, hence the CAD on the laptop. 

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Last night, while sat by the layout, I was having a lovely catch-up with a friend on the phone. I had recently discovered another GBL SECR C class bodyshell and tender. At various points in the conversation we kept coming back to ideas for things to do with said bodyshell.

"Make another 2-4-0!" 
"How about an 0-6-2t?"

But one idea has stuck, enough that I couldn't get to sleep until I confined it to paper. I found a scale drawing of a C class online and started playing to see if my thoughts could be made plausible. I therefore present to you, the GSR Class B 0-4-4t, a mixed-traffic design, used for local passenger services but also perfectly capable of the relatively short goods services on the line. With steam braking on all wheels, the loco handles loose-coupled goods quite admirably.

image.png.78cd8a7ebbf0d0181369eb5e7aa865a9.png

Now, where did I put my hacksaw? As designed, the loco has a shortened firebox compared to the C class, with the tank sides planned to come from the tender front, and hopefully the bunker from the tender rear. These will also save me the hassle of creating all those lovely flared edges, while hopefully keeping a family resemblance between the GSR in-house desiged locos.

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48 minutes ago, Skinnylinny said:

the tank sides planned to come from the tender front, 

 

Ah, that explains. I was going to remark that the tanks could be a bit higher. You don't need the handrail alongside the tank top. 

 

With that low tank, it's reminiscent of Johnson's Great Eastern 134 Class 0-4-4Ts - the very first side tank 0-4-4Ts - after Adams had given them cabs:

 

 

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I suppose that makes sense re: the boiler handrails - as I say, this was a quick sketch to settle my mind to sleep! I liked the idea of a low side tank, it looks a bit like an SECR Q tank too. Besides, with no two stations on the GSR being more than about 5 miles apart, I didn't feel I needed all that much water capacity. It certainly looks more than my Adams Radial!

 

I am still kind of pondering a half-cab, as it would lend an older air to the loco. I was thinking that a half-cab would give a distinctly Midland style to the loco, but of course the GWR used them as well, although with tank engines spending half of their life running backwards, I can't imagine they were that popular with crews in winter! 

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1 hour ago, Skinnylinny said:

I didn't feel I needed all that much water capacity. It certainly looks more than my Adams Radial!

Most tank locos carried some water at the bottom of the bunker*, too. You can clearly see it here on the GA drawing Hornby published:

 

dGA-of-4-4-2-Adams-Radial-T-OPC8131.jpg

 

*Obviously, in a separate chamber. ;)

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So that's what the big chunky plumbing is behind the cab footsteps - the pipe that links the front and bunker water tanks! Plus that bunker tank gives a nice slope to bring coal  to the front of the bunker. Perfect!

I'm thinking I might narrow the cab opening a little and lengthen the bunker instead. Decisions, decisions.

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47 minutes ago, Skinnylinny said:

the pipe that links the front and bunker water tanks!

Will also be a transverse pipe somewhere, called a balancing pipe to keep the weight of water the same in each tank. This is very prominent on GWR pannier tanks.

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