Great Southern Railway (Fictitious) - Signalling the changes...

[Skinnylinny]

Damn damn damn. I just discovered that the 42' brake third I've been working on to go with this... was in fact not converted to a brake until 1909, which means it simply can't be the main representation of a LSWR brake carriage for Linton. Linton was always intended to be a secondary or branch line when it comes to LSWR stock, so it looks like while the 42' Third (of 1889) would have been around, but it looks like Linton would most likely have seen 6-wheeled carriage stock.   

Guess who has another chapter of LSWR Carriages to read. I can't seem to find any reference to 6-wheel and bogie stock being used together, with the exception of 6-wheel luggage vans, so I suspect my 42' Third might in fact be useless, unless anyone else knows better?

[Compound2632]

As to the lining, I wouldn't bother - the highlights and shadows of the beading edges do the job. I would paint the bolections the same colour as the droplights, per your photo. 

 

I think you'd have a hard time proving that bogie and 6-wheeled stock was never mixed, though I gather the LSWR went in for fixed sets. One train of bogies (plus 6-wheel brake) and one of 6-wheelers? The bogie set might be on a mid-day filling-in turn from main-line duty.

 

Accident Reports may be worth exploring, e.g. Virginia Water, 1900, up Chertsey train: brake 134, bogie third 49, bogie composite 344, bogie third 1160.

 

 

 

Edited June 16, 2020 by Compound2632

[DLT]

Some lovely modelling on this topic Linny, I can't imagine why I haven't come across it before!

All the best,

Dave.

[Skinnylinny]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

As to the lining, I wouldn't bother - the highlights and shadows of the beading edges do the job. I would paint the bolections the same colour as the droplights, per your photo. 

That was the conclusion I was coming to, although there was a temptation to try working a very thin dark wash into the corners of the panelling to suggest the dark lining a little better.  As for the bolections, they're already rather a cheat (not raised, but recessed, due to the difficulties of lasering something so tiny to represent a moulding) but picking them out in brown to match the droplights ought to disguise this further. Good shout!

 

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

I think you'd have a hard time proving that bogie and 6-wheeled stock was never mixed, though I gather the LSWR went in for fixed sets. One train of bogies (plus 6-wheel brake) and one of 6-wheelers? The bogie set might be on a mid-day filling-in turn from main-line duty.

For me it's not so much a case of "prove it never happened" as "was this common?" - looking through Weddell LSWR Carriages Volume One 1838-1900 I can't see a single photo shewing a combination of 6-wheel and bogie stock (with the exception of 6-wheel vans running with bogie carriages). I suppose I could get around the lack of a brake-end carriage by using a full brake at each end.

I like the idea of the bogie set being on a filling-in turn, it would allow me to use more modern stock than might be expected on a secondary line. 

In October 1889 a notice came down from On High (the Traffic Superintendent) stating that "Passenger trains should be formed with a Brake van next the engine wherever possible. It may be that in some of the country districts where one van only is used this is not always practicable, but when this is the case the carriage next the engine should be a Third class, the front compartments of which next the engine should not be used for passengers unless absolutely necessary...".

The idea of checking accident reports is a good one - thank you! What's curious is I can find a record of bogie guards van no. 134 being built to replace 134 (in line with the LSWR using the next lowest available running number for new-build stock) but can't seem to find the previous 134!

Edited June 16, 2020 by Skinnylinny

[Compound2632]

15 minutes ago, Skinnylinny said:

That was the conclusion I was coming to, although there was a temptation to try working a very thin dark wash into the corners of the panelling to suggest the dark lining a little better.  

 

Worth tying - perhaps on a test piece? (You must have some failures that you can experiment on.)

 

16 minutes ago, Skinnylinny said:

As for the bolections, they're already rather a cheat (not raised, but recessed, due to the difficulties of lasering something so tiny to represent a moulding) but picking them out in brown to match the droplights ought to disguise this further.

 

The Triang clerestories are the same but once the "inverse Bolection" is picked out, it's hardly noticeable - certainly the clerestory set on the EM gauge layout Westcliff, which uses Triang bodies, passes muster. 

[Edwardian]

Superb coach modelling, Linny

 

 

Edited June 16, 2020 by Edwardian
You'd think I could spell a sentence that short correctly the first time, wouldn't you?

[Skinnylinny]

7 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Worth tying - perhaps on a test piece? (You must have some failures that you can experiment on.)

 

The Triang clerestories are the same but once the "inverse Bolection" is picked out, it's hardly noticeable - certainly the clerestory set on the EM gauge layout Westcliff, which uses Triang bodies, passes muster. 

I have some bits I can try that out on, although the joys of enamel paint mean it'll take a few days until they're suitably painted.

You're quite right about the inverse bolection not being noticeable on the Triang clerestories - I've just had to have a closer look myself! Well now I feel much happier about it. Besides which, the bolection only seems to protrude by maybe 3/8" - 1/2", far too small to be represented to scale with card! 

Oh, and @Edwardian, Carriages, dear boy, carriages!  But thank you!

Edited June 16, 2020 by Skinnylinny

[Skinnylinny]

re: the LSWR going for block trains, a lot of these seem to be rather longer than what I require for Linton, but I've also just spotted a photograph of a rather gorgeous and modellable little block train at Yeovil Junction c. 1899 (perfect timing). The train is described as:

O2 0-4-4t (got one already!)
30' 6-wheel brake of 1887
30' 6-wheel third of 1886
24' 4-wheel composite of 1872 (early panelling style and lower roofline so something interesting and distinctive!)
30' 6-wheel brake third of 1890

The post-1878 stock all uses the same panelling style and end shape as the 42' carriages so I can re-use a fair amount of the CAD work, The 1872 composites only lasted until December 1904 at the latest though, and the brake thirds to 1906, which is not ideal. Perhaps the bogie stock would be useful for representing a later time period.

[Caley Jim]

1 hour ago, Skinnylinny said:

In October 1889 a notice came down from On High (the Traffic Superintendent) stating that "Passenger trains should be formed with a Brake van next the engine wherever possible. It may be that in some of the country districts where one van only is used this is not always practicable, but when this is the case the carriage next the engine should be a Third class, the front compartments of which next the engine should not be used for passengers unless absolutely necessary...".

This was standard practice to form a 'leader', effectively a 'crumple zone' in modern day parlance.  where trains were being divided to run forward in separate sections it was sometimes necessary for spare brake vehicles to be available to form a leader if one portion was not going to have a brake compartment next to the loco.  Often trains which were to be divided would have two brake vehicles 'back to back' inthe centre of the train where the division would take place.

 

Jim

[Skinnylinny]

Well, I didn't get the job at Network Rail, but I did get a nice parcel today from the postie!

I bought one of the Hornby new-tooling Stepney models when it came out, and mentioned to my partner that I was planning on repainting/naming/numbering it into something more suitable for the layout (I'm trying to avoid having any preserved locos where possible), possibly 77 Wonersh after one of the stations on the Cranleigh line.

A look of horror and a stern instruction that I was to do no such thing were the result, and I was given domestic blessing to acquire another terrier which we hadn't seen at the Bluebell to desecrate! (And yes, I'm well aware Stepney as preserved is an A1x, thank you!) As such, when TTC listed the IEG 48 Leadenhall for £63, and with the partner offering money towards the purchase, very little self-justifying took place before I placed the order. 



There are already a few detail differences between the two, most notably the condensing pipes on Leadenhall and the distinctive cranked pipe from cab to smokebox on Stepney (what is that again?).

Anyway... I'm going to see if I can find any suitable terrier to repaint Leadenhall into, ideally one which kept condensing pipes until relatively late on. I still want a Marsh Umber one too, but that can wait for now!

[jamespetts]

There's much to be said for a spot of IEG - but does your partner not approve of renumbering,...?

[Skinnylinny]

Oh, renumbering is fine, but we went to the Bluebell Railway and Stepney became almost a souvenir, as well as being posed on the real one:



Said partner has also bought a Hattons P class Bluebell in Bluebell blue livery, so the idea is we each have a model loco to remind us of the trips we occasionally make down south.

[CKPR]

On 15/06/2020 at 21:58, Skinnylinny said:

... and try to find some suitable footsteps for the ends. I'd rather do these in etched metal than card for strength - does anyone know where I could get an etch of just footsteps, or should I get some strip and bend up my own?

I did have an etch with some GWR footsteps, ventilators and door handles which I think was either from Mallard or Roxey  but I can't be sure - I'd fold them up from brass strip and then solder a fine wire underneath the step so that you can then pin them in place on the ends . Without the 'pin', as sure as eggs are eggs, they'll fall off as soon as you breathe on them ! 

[Skinnylinny]

That definitely sounds like an approach, thanks - I'll grab some brass strip. 

A bit more painting's been going on - I've now got most of one of the Stroudley 6-wheel brakes done, so it's got its mahogany paint (of course, I didn't notice I hadn't fitted the door ventilators until uploading this photo, but they'll be easy to blend in in time.

The LSWR Panter road van now has some lettering and a basic underframe, ready for me to have a go at making up some steps and brake gear. I'm hoping that I can get away with something slightly impressionistic for the brake rigging, being hidden in the murk and behind stepboards, but we shall see. I've decided against the plastruct handrails fitted earlier. They just didn't look right. Fresh wire has now arrived and I shall see  how this goes - drilling the resin is a no-no - it just shatters - so current thought is tiny squares of microstrip glued to the body at each handrail support, then straight wire superglued to this. Very much a bodge, but needs must.

[Skinnylinny]

With the gradual easing of restrictions north of the border, it's looking like I might be able to do a bit more lasering. I mentioned a rather nice rake set train spotted in Weddell vol. 1, and while it would only have lasted in that form until 1904 at the latest, it's currently the best source I've got of a set train that isn't newly-built as a set. 
 

On 16/06/2020 at 12:55, Skinnylinny said:

I've also just spotted a photograph of a rather gorgeous and modellable little block train at Yeovil Junction c. 1899 (perfect timing). The train is described as:

O2 0-4-4t (got one already!)
30' 6-wheel brake of 1887
30' 6-wheel third of 1886
24' 4-wheel composite of 1872 (early panelling style and lower roofline so something interesting and distinctive!)
30' 6-wheel brake third of 1890

The post-1878 stock all uses the same panelling style and end shape as the 42' carriages so I was able to re-use a fair amount of the CAD work, With an O2 on the front of the set in the photograph, it feels like a lovely little train, and that 24' composite is so cute!

Obviously, for copyright reasons I can't share the photograph but I can share this:


 

The waist beading has had to be drawn up rather wider than scale, as the laser cuts parts slightly undersize (the laser beam follows the middle of the line, and is about 0.2mm wide).  This should hopefully give me some very fine but also extremely delicate beading - I'll probably be cutting two sets as this will be right on the very edge of what the cutter can manage! At full size it should be about 1" wide, if that.

[Edwardian]

On 19/06/2020 at 18:44, Skinnylinny said:

With the gradual easing of restrictions north of the border, it's looking like I might be able to do a bit more lasering. I mentioned a rather nice rake set train spotted in Weddell vol. 1, and while it would only have lasted in that form until 1904 at the latest, it's currently the best source I've got of a set train that isn't newly-built as a set. 
 

The post-1878 stock all uses the same panelling style and end shape as the 42' carriages so I was able to re-use a fair amount of the CAD work, With an O2 on the front of the set in the photograph, it feels like a lovely little train, and that 24' composite is so cute!

Obviously, for copyright reasons I can't share the photograph but I can share this:


 

The waist beading has had to be drawn up rather wider than scale, as the laser cuts parts slightly undersize (the laser beam follows the middle of the line, and is about 0.2mm wide).  This should hopefully give me some very fine but also extremely delicate beading - I'll probably be cutting two sets as this will be right on the very edge of what the cutter can manage! At full size it should be about 1" wide, if that.

 

It would be excellent to see these, and not only, but also ....

 

You do realise that the 1872 composite is one of the 1872-3 SW coaches chosen for the West Norfolk's Castle Aching-Achingham branch train, as they were typical of the time and thought to have been built by the Metropolitan Carriage & Wagon Co to their own designs? 

 

If only you could be tempted by the Third and Third Brake too!

 

Note the conversion to gas lighting and the torpedo vent over the last (smoking?) compartment of this brake third. The waist beading is quite fine and has a rounded profile.

 

Indeed, this set is one of my current 5-trains initiative, stalled due to various factors including my lack of doily-cutting prowess. 

 

Rude of me to interpose the needs of CA, of course, but I find I have been hankering after these since at least October 2016!

 

 

Apropos the waist beading, as this had rounded edges, Mike Trice reproduced this by making grooves and then sticking round section plastic rod. 

 

That's not quite the right profile either, but you might achieve that by a slight sanding down the plastic rod to leave it with round edges and a slightly flatter face.

 

Returning to the SW, if you could be further tempted, I could certainly suggest a further 3 SW shorties.

 

 

LSWR Coaches

 

So, to business, from left to right I think we have:

 

28' 4-wheel Brake Third, as built from 1879. There were coaches of a similar layout built later, but the length of these later coaches (30') relative to the end two GWR coaches (31') suggests the first two coaches are 28'.  Further, coaches of this vintage appear common in Edwardian views of the SW in the West Country, e.g. Lyme and Bideford, whereas I suspect that the newer coaches were concentrated to the East. 

 

28' 4-wheel Third, as built from 1879.

 

I think it possible to discern from the pictures the narrow eaves panel and wider waist panel, in the upper body Salmon colour, of SW coaches. 

 

24' 4-wheel Luggage Van to drawing DN97A of 1887.  You can even see the lettering in the centre of the upper body. They were used not only for luggage, but parcels, perishables and newspapers. What is this one conveying to Ilfracombe I wonder?   

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 21, 2020 by Edwardian
Picture

[Skinnylinny]

I might have a chance to have a look at some point in the future, James. Now I've got the basics worked out it ought to be possible to produce variants. As for the half-round beading... well, the combination of fatigue, ADHD and depression say "no" to that one - I simply don't have the ability to focus for that long and make a good job of it, or at least a good enough job that I'd be happy with the results at the moment. Working with card is necessarily full of compromises and this is one I'm happy with.

For my own sake at the moment, I'm not producing kits for anyone other than myself - it's one thing to put off producing something for myself for a week or three due to mental health concerns. It's quite another when it's for someone else who's paying me.

I realise I have a fair few unfinished projects on the go at the moment which I really ought to try to work on without getting too distracted by these carriages. Current list looks like this:

Finish my Stroudley carriage rake
Finish my LSWR bogie carriage rake

Cut, build, paint my LSWR 6-wheeler rake

Complete and paint my Ilfracombe Goods 
Paint my D1 as built by Gary on-stream
Finish building and painting my GSR 0-4-4T and GSR 2-4-0,
Complete work on chassis of GSR Sharp Stewart 0-4-0t,

a couple of wagon kits,

a necessary repaint of my SEF LBSC Billinton brake (on which the paint started flaking when applying transfers)
Finish my LSWR brake van

Finish the repaint of my M7

Finish my O2 conversion then painting that

Finish the lining on the Adams Radial

A couple of half finished GSR carriages...

And that's just the rolling stock projects!

Edited June 21, 2020 by Skinnylinny

[Andy Hayter]

I have a long list like that.

[Northroader]

Poppy’s woodtech are producing 4mm kits for six wheelers of the equivalent profile for the Highland Railway, which may stand adaptation to WNR requirements.

http://www.poppyswoodtech.co.uk

[Skinnylinny]

Whoops - I forgot one of the projects, but it's ok, because I'll be finishing it today - lettering up the 3D printed cattle wagon.



Today I'll do the other side, then hopefully letter up the D&S one as well - I'll need to sort out the bars for that one too. Now, does anyone know of anywhere I can get a couple of actual LSWR opens (not just repainted Hornby PO wagons!) I see Gramodels list a few, but it seems as though they only come as a body, and while I'm not opposed to etched axleguards, the issue is that I don't know where I'd get the buffers, springs and LSWR axleboxes from. I'd really like at least one wagon with the distinctive LSWR curved end, as per this gorgeous model by Trevor Birch of Aardstrom models:


Source: http://www.aardstorm-models.com/Models/GalleryView.php?Model=LSWROpen-D1309&Image=LSWROpen-D1309-7058

Otherwise I may have to design my own again...

[Compound2632]

D1309? There seem to be 4 and 5 plank variants...

 

If you find a solution, let me know:

 

 

[Crop from a photo in the Huntley & Palmers Collection, Reading Museum Service.]

[Andy Hayter]

LSWR open?  Don't Cambrian do one or is it just the mineral?

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

LSWR open?  Don't Cambrian do one or is it just the mineral?

 

I suspect what you've in your mind's eye is their LBSC round-ended wagon. A snag* with their Southern constituent kits is that they are mostly rather late pre-grouping - the D1316 dates from 1904; the D1410, although of a design dating back to 1899, has the narrower planks charactersitic of later batches.

 

*From the POV of a c. 1902 modeller. I'm sure early grouping period Southern modellers are very happy - at least up to the point where they realise that the vast majority of wagons on their layouts should be from the LMS and LNER (and consituents)!

[Andy Hayter]

No not the LBSCR one which I have myself.

This one from 1904

 

https://www.cambrianmodelrail.co.uk/store/C79-LSWR-12-15ton-8-plank-Open-Wagon-SR-D1316-p94430445

 

I do agree though that most of the kits are post world war and therefore unsuitabl for many of us.

[Skinnylinny]

52 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

D1309? There seem to be 4 and 5 plank variants...

Indeed, 4- and 5-plank variants, with wooden or steel underframes (although I believe steel underframe ones all had 5 planks, though I may be wrong. That being said, a D1310 with Panter cross-lever brake could certainly be something different!

33 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

No not the LBSCR one which I have myself.

This one from 1904

 

https://www.cambrianmodelrail.co.uk/store/C79-LSWR-12-15ton-8-plank-Open-Wagon-SR-D1316-p94430445

 

I do agree though that most of the kits are post world war and therefore unsuitable for many of us.

Indeed - I have one of those lurking about somewhere, but it's rather large (about the size of a large cattle wagon or D1410 covered wagon!) and rather oversized for general merchandise duties at Linton!

39 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

A snag* with their Southern constituent kits is that they are mostly rather late pre-grouping - the D1316 dates from 1904; the D1410, although of a design dating back to 1899, has the narrower planks characterstic of later batches.

Ah bother, I hadn't noticed that - does that mean that my Cambrian D1410 (as pictured above) is, strictly speaking, a post-war one?