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Great Southern Railway (Fictitious) - Signalling the changes...


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Well, we'll have to wait and see about the coupe anyway.

I got a chance to get my Radial and Drummond-liveried M7 out with some coaching stock at the club tonight, so have a photo of two LSWR passenger trains passing one another:

20191128_190521.jpg

A bit of research on the journey home has led me to realise what a minefield the Adams Radial tanks were. 

The model started out as East Kent Railway no. 5, which had previously been LSWR 488 (the preserved one on the Bluebell). I'm trying to avoid preserved locos where possible, so that one was out. 11 0415 class tanks were built by Neilsons of Glasgow (including no. 488), so that gives me numbers 479-489 to play with. (Incidentally, the Neilson locos were built with differently-shaped front frames above the front running plates from those by other builders, so I'm stuck with a Neilson one!) 

Sadly, none were shedded at Guildford during the period 1900-1910 that I can see, however, one was shedded at Woking (just a few miles from where the GSR crossed the LSWR at Brookwood) from 1886 until (as far as I can tell) 1911, when it moved to Bournemouth. Perfect!

Anyway, to cut a long story short, say hello to number 487!

 

487.jpg.d9c6c5f08d8f1ad0494badfdfa8b6c75.jpg

Edited by Skinnylinny
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On 28/11/2019 at 12:39, Compound2632 said:

How come the servants get the end view? How about end saloons, with a service area in the middle? It has something of a Directors' Inspection Saloon about it.

 

Is the Ebay one possibly Highland inspired?

I've just looked at the Gould book of SECR bogie stock (as it was the closest to hand). They had quite a few designed of saloons, but none appear to have end windows. In fact most appear to have the lavatories at the ends...

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1 hour ago, Nick C said:

I've just looked at the Gould book of SECR bogie stock (as it was the closest to hand). They had quite a few designed of saloons, but none appear to have end windows. In fact most appear to have the lavatories at the ends...

 

In any railway vehicle, the steadiest ride is in the middle and the roughest at the ends. Thus first class accommodation tended to be in the middle. It's debatable whether having the lavatory compartment at the end was ever a wise idea, though it became the universal arrangement on gangwayed vehicles.

 

I had supposed that in most vehicles with end coupe compartments, the coupe was of a superior class but looking through the myriad of LNWR 42 ft non-corridor diagrams, there seem to be at least as many thirds as firsts or seconds. 

 

Here's an example with a first class coupe outside third class compartments:

 

2143979077_P1010375compressed.JPG.e4d236fcb2ae0bc2a916e75d8eb37362.JPG

 

Unfortunately the passengers aren't very first class, though this does illustrate the appeal of such compartments. 

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The Great Southern Railway are pleased to announce the purchase of a new piece of rolling stock. It is intended to convert this carriage into a family/picnic saloon, which may be hired for outings to anywhere on the Great British mainland. The GSR are already in negotiations with the London, Brighton and South Coast Railway, the North Western Railway and the West Norfolk Railway to offer accommodation at their attractive holiday hotels at Oak Hill, Wellsworth and Castle Aching respectively, and the Board hope to be able to announce agreements with other companies in the future.

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Yesterday I received a gift from the postman (is it really a gift if one pays for it oneself?) - three POWSides wagon kits (pre-lettered - I don't fancy rub-down transfers at the moment!). In the pack were two wagons local to Linton (A H Scard of Ash on the SE&CR, and T Bowler of Brookwood on the LSWR), a sheet of transfers for LBSC cattle wagons and brake vans, and, out of period and location, a Robert Reid & Co 7-plank wagon (RCH 1923 type) based in Raynes Park in SW London, where I spent about 15 years growing up. This one will not end up on the layout, but I've never seen this livery on a kit or RTR wagon anywhere, and I wanted it, so. A shelf wagon. I'm still waiting for the final wagon I ordered (White & Beeny of Hailsham) to arrive, although a note was included apologising for its absence and reassuring that it would be sent as soon as possible.

Wagons.jpg.008dd00c954d211c5e727af96b9367cd.jpg

The sides have been given a coat of matt varnish (sprayed), and will get another coat before I try assembling them, as I've heard horror stories of the lettering coming away on peoples' fingers. I also intend to weather the two black wagons, although I'm not sure how I'll go about making them look grubby - adding black coal dust is hardly going to be noticeable!

I then spent another evening spent working on the Radial at the club. Over a couple of hours of chatting, layout operating and a little research, I managed to add about 3.5 inches of lining to one side of the loco, but that was all of the curves on the bodyside, so I'm fairly happy with that progress. Still a few small spots to touch up, and I'm not quite convinced by the cab cutout lining here though, so I might go back and redo that.

20191203_211046.jpg


I also got a much nicer portrait of the numbered side:
20191203_181505.jpg

 

Must get around to lining those steps though!

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You might like to start with a really well thinned down wash of Matt black paint, and a quick wipe with a clean tissue straight after. This will take the fresh paint look off, and leave some dirt in the recesses and joins. You can then get pastel chalks from an art shop, try black, umber brown, sienna brown, a lighter brown, a bright orange red, maybe a mid grey. Rub them on some emery paper, collect the dust produced, and sprinkle it where you want on the wagon, then brush it in with a dry brush. Black generally around the body, more brown lower down on the running gear, the orange to streak the brakeblocks. Cross brush on van roofs. I don’t try to fix it, and if you don’t like it you can just wash it off with water.

if you want to go really scruffy, mix a paste with black and brown powders in water, then paint it on with a brush. Leave it to dry, when it looks horrendously filthy, but then brush off lightly with a dry brush until you’re happy with the effect. If you’re not, just wash off with water again.

Edited by Northroader
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That's helpful, thanks to both of you. I think the thing is that I'm so used to seeing BR bauxite and grey wagons weathered, but private owners are a bit of a new thing to me - the club has three standard gauge layouts, all set in the 1950s-60s BR period! 

I presume a major part of so many coal wagons being painted black was in fact that it didn't show the coal-dust-grime? 

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16 minutes ago, Northroader said:

You might like to start with a really well thinned down wash of Matt black paint, and a quick wipe with a clean tissue straight after. This will take the fresh paint look off, and leave some dirt in the recesses and joins. You can then get pastel chalks from an art shop, try black, umber brown, sienna brown, a lighter brown, a bright orange red, maybe a mid grey. Rub them on some emery paper, collect the dust produced, and sprinkle it where you want on the wagon, then brush it in with a dry brush. Black generally around the body, more brown lower down on the running gear, the orange to streak the brakeblocks. Cross brush on van roofs. I don’t try to fix it, and if you don’t like it you can just wash it off with water.

if you want to go really scruffy, mix a paste with black and brown powders in water, then paint it on with a brush. Leave it to dry, when it looks horrendously filthy, but then brush off lightly with a dry brush until you’re happy with the effect. If you’re not, just wash off with water again.

That sounds like a really good method, but rather than use pure matt black, I would add some dark brown to it.  Few things are truly black and dirt and grime - even from coal - will have at least a hint of brown.

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PO wagons can be gloss black, but they do fade:

 

towneley2.jpg.4b1786c949572a698f9df6e6066ed70c.jpg

 

Towneley Colliery, L&YR Copy Pit line, from the Disused Stations website. I did work out the earliest possible date with reference to the big L&Y van, I forget the conclusion but certainly a few years into the 20th century. I think those two ancient-looking wagons are fresh back from having their dumb buffers sawn off and self-contained sprung buffers fitted.

 

The trick I learned from @jwealleans is to use a wash of half-and-half Humbrol metalcote 201 metallic black and Humbrol 33 matt black (if I've remembered the formula correctly) - or other manufacturer's equivalents. He then goes on to use black weathering powders but I've not progressed that far. This, to my mind, works well on grey or red wagons; I've not tried black though I would be inclinded to use a (non-blue) dark grey in place of the matt black. One aspect of his method I've not had any joy with is using cotton buds - I find these disintegrate and leave threads all over the place. Tissue isn't any better, so I make great use of fingers - resulting in some interesting weathered skin effects for a few days afterwards!

 

Modellers who specialise in modern image grot seem to make great use of browns. I'm not convinced this is appropriate for pre-Grouping weathering - rust isn't relevant. Most discolouration comes either from the direct deposition of atmospheric pollutants, or from their chemical reaction with the paintwork.

 

But I suspect @Andy Hayter would be right in finding me too dogmatically black - I've not yet managed to bring myself to let black down either with white or brown, on the initial "pristine" painting.

 

Have fun with the rub-down LB&SCR transfers!

Edited by Compound2632
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I tend to be cautious with white in black because it is only then that you find whether the black is based on blue, green, brown or black.

 

You are right though that blacks turn up in pristine PO wagons and of course on a number of locomotives, as well as wagon strapping and underframes  etc.  I have no problem using black on any of these as a base.

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Two things are going on here, scale and dirt/distress. 

 

To represent black at scale, it should not be pure black, but muted. Add just white, and it leads to too pure a grey. So, I use a 'bone white' to tone down the black.

 

Gloss does not scale.  For high gloss at scale something more satin in finish is required.

 

For a permanently dirty black area, like an underframe, I 'pre-weather' by painting black mixed with up to 50% earth brown.  This gives a dirty black at scale effect.  

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27 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

I tend to be cautious with white in black because it is only then that you find whether the black is based on blue, green, brown or black.

I find adding a little grey to the black, instead of white, produces a much better result for black ironwork, underframes etc.

 

Jim

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Quote

a wash of half-and-half Humbrol metalcote 201 metallic black and Humbrol 33 matt black

 

Not quite.  27004 is my weapon of choice, Metalcote black.  It can be polished when dry so you get that slightly shiny effect through the dirt.  I mix with 33, 64 (light grey) and 62 (Leather).  112 Tarmac is also a possibility although the formulation seems to have changed since it became available again and it's not so blue.  Revell 67 (I think) is better.

 

None of this is my idea - it's all in Martyn Welch's The Art of Weathering, a book which I cannot recommend highly enough.

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I do have a copy of The Art of Weathering, although given it's a book on painting and colour usage, I find it very strange that 90% of the photos of weathered models and the processes involved are in black and white! I must have another read through it at some point... (Those last three words are becoming a recurring theme in this thread).

Thanks to all for the advice, plenty of things to think about there.

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11 hours ago, Regularity said:

Humbrol coal black and matt dark earth, in 2:1 proportions, looks good, too. Barry Norman uses this combination.

1471201170_Number5crop.jpg.d87019b87225f8249e84935620bf34f5.jpg

 

 

 

 

On my monitor, that has a purplish hue - is that the intention? It does look good. Very cast iron.

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22 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

On my monitor, that has a purplish hue - is that the intention? It does look good. Very cast iron.

Just a bit of “polishing” from handling, I think.

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Lifecolor do a very nice range of acrylics, with shades of black, which I mix to get smokebox and frame weathering. They are better quality than the current Humbrol, thinner , but brush on well. This one is the basis of my palette.

 

Edited - couldn't get a link to work, but look for set LC- CS527 Shades of black.

 

https://airbrushes.com/product_info.php?cPath=400_4_429_202_203_549&products_id=21235

Edited by Ben Alder
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Well, the question of weathering the wagons got a little more urgent: 

Wagons.jpg.568c7f61dfc2a460d3868bb3c702b015.jpg

Being Slaters kits, they pretty well fell together, and now they just need the insides painting, some tension-locks fitting and some coal loads. Both of these were built at the club meet this evening. 

A dive into the archives brings up this photograph, from The Great Southern Railway in Photographs (Achingham Press, 1987)

20191205_182410.jpg

LSWR 0415 Class no 487 delivering what would later become GSR Family Saloon no. 37 to the works at Linton, June 17 1897. History does not record the source of this carriage, as the ledgers for that year were lost in the fire of 1917.
 

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And enough stealing of the club layout for backdrops - my photoplank layout got moved to the new flat today. Couldn't resist plonking some buildings and stock on it, although I realise I still haven't finished half the scenery on it yet.  Still, another step towards getting the new place more homely. Now, time to clean up and pack up that 3D printer...

20191208_141639.jpg

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Well, after another weekend of moving, what better way to spend a quiet evening than in some wanton destruction with screwdriver and hacksaw?

The soon-to-be family saloon was dismantled, to find there were partitions between compartments, and seats in the end coupe compartments. I've kept some of these for now, removing the ones which separated the saloon into two compartments. The glazing was one strip of acetate per side, held in place by the partitions, so this was cut through with a scalpel and removed from the saloons. 

 

Untitled.jpg.0114d3d8641b2d619ffe16d35b487e2c.jpg

 

The footboard that came adrift has since been reattached. However, I had to wait until I got home to my hacksaw before the next stage could continue - removing the columns in the middle of the saloon compartment. This has now been done, and the bolection mouldings need a little dressing with a file, but we're starting to get there... 

 

Untitled1.jpg.0d55677b07832b9f6cdb176306670db4.jpg

 

This has made me ponder a potential change to the GSR carriage livery, however - I'm considering whether it would be appropriate to pick out the window frames/bolection mouldings in white, to give a more continuous area of white between the waist and top panels, especially where long lights are used. I had also noticed that on my corridor conversion of one of the clerestories, I wasn't happy with how little white there was to be seen around the windows. Thoughts would be very welcome. As a reminder of the current livery:


post-793-0-23113800-1517062836.png

Edited by Skinnylinny
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12 minutes ago, Skinnylinny said:

Well, after another weekend of moving, what better way to spend a quiet evening than in some wanton destruction with screwdriver and hacksaw?

The soon-to-be family saloon was dismantled, to find there were partitions between compartments, and seats in the end coupe compartments. I've kept some of these for now, removing the ones which separated the saloon into two compartments. The glazing was one strip of acetate per side, held in place by the partitions, so this was cut through with a scalpel and removed from the saloons. 

 

Untitled.jpg.0114d3d8641b2d619ffe16d35b487e2c.jpg

 

The footboard that came adrift has since been reattached. However, I had to wait until I got home to my hacksaw before the next stage could continue - removing the columns in the middle of the saloon compartment. This has now been done, and the bolection mouldings need a little dressing with a file, but we're starting to get there... 

 

Untitled1.jpg.0d55677b07832b9f6cdb176306670db4.jpg

 

This has made me ponder a potential change to the GSR carriage livery, however - I'm considering whether it would be appropriate to pick out the window frames/bolection mouldings in white, to give a more continuous area of white between the waist and top panels, especially where long lights are used. I had also noticed that on my corridor conversion of one of the clerestories, I wasn't happy with how little white there was to be seen around the windows. Thoughts would be very welcome. As a reminder of the current livery:


post-793-0-23113800-1517062836.png

 Blue with white upper panels id @Nile's LMWR livery. Green with white upper panels looks very smart but is also already taken - WNR - if that bothers you. Claret's a good all-round all-over livery but a bit commonplace. How about claret with cream upper panels? 

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Unfortunately, blue with white upper panels has been my carriage livery for a while - I've already got a fair few carriages repainted in said livery! It is to match the locomotives, which are also in a matching blue - an approximation of GER livery. That being said, would not claret and white be ripping off the Caledonian? Or claret and cream the LNWR?

I'm aware of Nile's LMWR livery - I believe a while back there was a "snap!" moment - both of us seem to have nicked the idea from the Furness. That being said, there are many examples of railways with similar liveries - how many railways had varnished teak, for example? Or shades of maroon?

Edited by Skinnylinny
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