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Skinnylinny

Great Southern Railway (Fictitious) - Mr. Adams' Finest

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No objections at all to continued discussions of the milk van on here. I'm aware of kits for various GWR siphons, but was unaware that GWR siphons ended up around LSWR territory very much. I might have to think about building one after all. My main concern would be the 6-wheeled chassis, although I could probably appropriate just the chassis from here on Shapeways (as the bodyshell and roof parts would add about £25 to the cost of the chassis - £38 for a wagon kit that doesn't even include wheels or buffers might be pushing it for me a bit, unless it was a "must have").ich would be available in 2mm 

For the 0 gauge version of the condensed milk van, I could probably cut it from MDF (or even ply if you wanted to go properly fancy), which I believe we can get in 1.5mm thickness, and would give a much stronger bodyshell, suitable for regular handling. I should point out that the card body for this siphon has coped with dozens of trips to and from the model railway club in a foam-lined stock box, so it's not fragile, per se, but if it were regularly being handled as seems to happen on some coarse scale layouts, I'd probably consider it in wood, which would be a little more expensive to produce.

 

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1.5mm ply would be superb. Card, especially if shellacked, is incredibly strong, but ply is the ultimate.

 

There are many things I’d like to make from laser-cut ply for my layout, but I haven’t yet found a local place that has a cutter available for ‘public’ use. I need to investigate further, though, because rumour has it that one is being procured by the local ‘men in sheds’ group.

 

A ‘road van’ is one. Both LSWR and LBSCR had almost identical ones, with exterior framing, as a result of the designer moving jobs between the two companies.

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See, road vans are a concept I've never quite understood. I know that it's basically a guards van with extra stowage (or perhaps a goods van with guard's accommodation) but how were they used? Were they passenger rated and coupled to passenger trains where there was insufficient demand for a whole goods train, were they attached to goods trains to allow the guard to offload parcels? Or were they used by themselves with a loco for a very short goods train?

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Linny

 

A quick google suggests that the first ‘siphons’ were small ones, very like yours, with plain arc roofs. Photo of a finescale model, poached from a website, below. But what we really need here is a GWR expert with a library.

 

The old Hornby chassis are 123mm x 57mm, but it strikes me that a far better chassis, to the same dimensions, is made by Derek Strickland, a gentleman who specialises in small-batch production of coarse-scale wagons and parts. http://www.progress-products.co.uk/current/Contact_us/contact_us.html

 

I an seriously imagine a collaboration between Derek and yourself to get a batch these out to the coarse world. He has ollaborated with others to use bodies made by them previously.

 

Incidentally, in the 1930s, Hornby made this van in printed tin. It was not one of their best and only diehard Hornby collectors seem to like it.

 

Kevin

 

PS: if you want this diversion out of your thread, we can continue by PM or use my thread.

 

Be not afeared!  There is no need to put six wheels under a Siphon. 

 

As per the picture of the model posted by Kevin, the GW had its very own Condensed Milk Van.

 

It is legitimate to refer to the model as Diagram O1, but really, O1 was the diagram number introduced to cover the second batch of 6-wheeled siphon.  You guessed it, the first batch was given diagram O2.  I do love the Great western and its funny little ways. The 4-wheelers had no diagram when built, but were later lumped in with the O1s when the GW decided that things should have diagrams.

 

Anyway, the Great Western built no fewer than 70 of these 4-wheel, pre-diagram, siphons between 1873 and 1878.

 

I only have two pictures of the prototype, but, happily, each shows one of the two variations of door design. One is behind a quite delightful little 0-4-0, which screams to be modelled.  The contents of the other are, I suspect, not worth crying over.

 

I have scale drawings, and will now send these to you.  

post-25673-0-48517400-1517753730_thumb.jpg

post-25673-0-93727400-1517753814_thumb.jpg

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Ooh!

 

I’d forgotten that first picture had that van it, despite having looked at it many times. The loco is a Bagnall inverted saddl tank of the Brill Tramway, a very famous loco among those who are into weird little railways. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brill_Tramway

 

And, I think I’ve doubly solved my ‘access to a laser cutter’ problem. My brother in law just popped in, and coincidentally mentioned hack-spaces, then casually announced that he has access to a laser cutter that will ‘cut anything’ at the university where he works. He’s going to find out what software it likes, and we can go from there.

 

Road vans were goods vehicles, not passenger rated, and were used to carry small items of goods, of which there used to be a lot. Larger stations would have an ordinary goods van allocated for this traffic, and it would get unloaded at the goods shed, but both LSWR and LBSCR, and I think a few other railways, had a lot of small wayside stations hat didn’t merit a full goods shed, so had a lock-up store on the passenger platform, and these small items would be unloaded/loaded to/from that, while the goods train was at the passenger platform.

 

These items were consigned at goods rates and speeds (cheap, rough, and slow). High value items, fragile items, perishables, small animals in cages etc, were consigned as ‘railway parcels’ (expensive and fast), like a modern parcel courier service, and went in the brakevan of a passenger train, or extra passenger-rated vans attached.

 

Most ‘road vans’ weren’t, in fact, brake vans, just ordinary vans, sometimes fitted with shelves inside, but, as I say, some railways, and some wagon designers, had a penchant for the combined type.

Edited by Nearholmer
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Laser cutters are definitely a lot of fun. Much like 3d printers, there is something very satisfying and almost hypnotic about watching your design appear out of nowhere, although granted the laser cutter is rather faster than the 3D printer! Yesterday evening I went and cut out a couple of condensed milk van kits for interested parties. I'll probably have a look at adjusting the kit for 0 scale coarse although I might want to adjust how the corners are made. On the 4mm model, the ends are two layers glued together, then attached to the ends of the sides. If doing that with 1.5mm ply, it might look rather chunky and crude, so I'll have a play around at the weekend.

 

post-793-0-72321800-1517934868_thumb.jpg

I took a little video too, for those who'd like to see this machine darting around, doing its thing far more quickly and accurately than I ever could! The video can be found here on Youtube

Thanks to Nearholmer for the details of road vans. I suspect that Linton may well be large enough to warrant a whole van or two, but a road van appearing occasionally for other stations along the route could be plausible. 

Edwardian: Thank you for the drawings. I will probably eventually get around to drawing those up in CAD, although it probably wouldn't be a common wagon on Linton. Nothing stopping me modelling it because "I just want one" though!

I had been hoping to work on some Bill Bedford MR D.299 wagons this evening, as my parcel from them arrived in the office this morning. Unfortunately, when I opened the box, I was presented with two very lovely kits for 3-plank drop-side wagons instead! So after a quick phone call, those are on their way back and replacements will be on their way to me. Ah well, I shall continue playing around with the working timetable instead.

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I took a little video too, for those who'd like to see this machine darting around, doing its thing far more quickly and accurately than I ever could! The video can be found here on Youtube

 

Can I ask a question? Why does it jump about so much, doing a wee bit here, then a wee bit there? Is it to do with the order of drawing things. When it comes to laser cutters, like Manuel, I know nothing,!

Jim

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Linny...

 

Do you require an LSWR G6?

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Can I ask a question? Why does it jump about so much, doing a wee bit here, then a wee bit there? Is it to do with the order of drawing things. When it comes to laser cutters, like Manuel, I know nothing,!

Jim

I have to admit, I'm not quite sure why it jumps about. As long as it works, I'm not too fussed about the order in which it does the cuts. :)

Linny...

 

Do you require an LSWR G6?

Ooooh, a G6? I could be tempted...

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I think it might have something to do with not setting the workpiece alight.

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Ooooh, a G6? I could be tempted... 

Indeed... see my thread for more! The price may be enough to tempt some to try a 3D Print...

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You can either build one (the 'scale' version of the model) or I will be offering a version to fit the Mainline/Bachmann J72 Chassis (Any objections?) or, failing that, the Hornby standard 0-6-0 chassis (I believe the current offering is proportioned to fit this, so no harm done there!).

 

Any other RTR Chassis suggestions?

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You can either build one (the 'scale' version of the model) or I will be offering a version to fit the Mainline/Bachmann J72 Chassis (Any objections?) or, failing that, the Hornby standard 0-6-0 chassis (I believe the current offering is proportioned to fit this, so no harm done there!).

 

Any other RTR Chassis suggestions?

A few minutes with a ruler and some RTR locos I have to hand yield the following: 

 

post-793-0-88814000-1517961936.png

 

The closest I could find among my models was the GWR 2251 chassis, and I think the latest Bachmann chassis for these is fairly small and snug, with only the vertically-mounted motor sticking up above the top of the wheels. Mine, however, is a Mainline one with a pancake motor, so I don't know what the dimensions of the Bachmann motor are.

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Thank you Linny, that is incredibly useful!

 

My 2251 has a Mainline chassis too, so I will attempt to base it around that. Second best is the 57xx chassis, so I may also do a version to fit that chassis, given I have a couple of Bachmann ones. The Hornby chassis is also good because it's readily available to most modellers. I'll be doing multiple versions of this, I think!

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My 2251 has a Mainline chassis too, so I will attempt to base it around that. Second best is the 57xx chassis, so I may also do a version to fit that chassis, given I have a couple of Bachmann ones.

 

I'd also go for the chassis with the closest wheel diameter - from my (limited) experience, you'll notice even a 1mm difference in wheel size more easily than a few mm out on the wheelbase.

 

I'm currently working on an easily adaptable 3D printed chassis for this sort of thing, it won't be ready particularly soon, but maybe if you want to offer a scale version in the future... The prototypes are being built for one of my R1s and my freelance diesel shunter project.

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Any chance of a picture of the Ankh-Morpork and Sto Plains Hygienic Railway wagon please?

Still no sign of that AM&SPHR wagon, but there is a private owner wagon that'll have "AM&SPHR" markings in one corner, the lettering for which is in progress. I believe it belongs to one "CMOT Dibbler, General Purveyor, Ankh-Morpork". Yes, that's even more Discworld references on this layout... The other side is named after a friend who is well-known for finding a second lease of life for things that have come out of skips... 

 

post-793-0-76608400-1518046553.jpg

 

The kit is another of the lovely Cambrian kits, and is awaiting me finishing the lettering on this side, and the arrival of some wheels which were ordered yesterday.

 

 

Edited by Skinnylinny
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A few minutes with a ruler and some RTR locos I have to hand yield the following: 

 

attachicon.gifChassis.png

 

The closest I could find among my models was the GWR 2251 chassis, and I think the latest Bachmann chassis for these is fairly small and snug, with only the vertically-mounted motor sticking up above the top of the wheels. Mine, however, is a Mainline one with a pancake motor, so I don't know what the dimensions of the Bachmann motor are.

The wheelbase of most of the G6 class (except the 10 M9s built in 1900) was 6ft 10in + 7ft 5in which I make 27.33mm + 29.66mm.  The old Wills kit was designed to fit the Hornby Dublo R1 chassis which has a wb of 26mm + 32mm.   I can't lay my hands on a 57xx and 2251 at the moment but IF they were actually to scale their wb should be 29mm + 33mm.  And a scale 2251 wheel ought to be 20.66mm.

 

Given that the G6 is a fairly modest (in size) 0-6-0T perhaps a mech worth considering is the Bachmann MR  1F 0-6-0T?  It has a 29mm + 30mm wb and 18mm wheels.  Lying the 1F on top of a G6 drawing it looks like the mech would probably fit inside a G6.

 

Anyway I would certainly be interested in a 3D printed G6!

 

Chris KT

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Well, as it happens I am producing a 3D printed G6, Sir!

 

One small problimb though, Sir, I do not own a Midland 1F! As an alternative, could you possibly suggest any other chassis?

 

I own the following:

 

Mainline GWR Collett 2251 0-6-0

Mainline NER (Well...) Worsdell J72 0-6-0T

Bachmann GWR Collett 5700 0-6-0PT

Hornby LBSCR Class A1/x 0-6-0T

Dapol Hunslet 'Austerity' 0-6-0ST

Bachmann SECR 'C' Class 0-6-0

Triang 0-6-0 Chassis

Hornby 0-6-0 Chassis

Bachmann LMS Fowler 3F 0-6-0T Chassis

 

There are possibly others, but I can't think of them right now!

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The wheelbase of most of the G6 class (except the 10 M9s built in 1900) was 6ft 10in + 7ft 5in which I make 27.33mm + 29.66mm.  The old Wills kit was designed to fit the Hornby Dublo R1 chassis which has a wb of 26mm + 32mm.   I can't lay my hands on a 57xx and 2251 at the moment but IF they were actually to scale their wb should be 29mm + 33mm.  And a scale 2251 wheel ought to be 20.66mm.

 

Given that the G6 is a fairly modest (in size) 0-6-0T perhaps a mech worth considering is the Bachmann MR  1F 0-6-0T?  It has a 29mm + 30mm wb and 18mm wheels.  Lying the 1F on top of a G6 drawing it looks like the mech would probably fit inside a G6.

 

Anyway I would certainly be interested in a 3D printed G6!

 

Chris KT

Ah, I may well have been mistaken, my apologies. I was working off the drawing here where the rear wheelbase is given as 6'10" + 7'10". 

 

As for the ruler measurements, I have been a little sleep deprived, so might be worth sem34090 re-checking my measurements on the GWR 0-6-0 wheelbases!

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I'll try and get round to doing that later...

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I think this is a road van wagon label, but, as they would, the GWR seems to have used a different name.

post-26817-0-15740000-1518091141_thumb.jpeg

Edited by Nearholmer
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The GWR had road vans, about two at any given time. They were toads with side doors opening into the guard’s area, and used on lightly loaded lines. One was allocated to Kington and used on the Presteigne line.

 

Station trucks were different. They were sheeted opens or vans, loaded at major transshipment depots, operating on specific services on specific routes, for what we often call “smalls” traffic. They were marshalled into a specific point in a train, the idea being that train would stop at a station with the station truck as close as possible to wherever the parcels were dealt with. No other shunting took place - that was the role of the pickup goods. Sometimes these went off the system: there was a daily wagon from the transshipment shed (goods shed) at Oxford to Northampton. Goods from the West Country to Northampton went to Oxford for bringing together in one regular load. I presume they had a goods agent of their own in Northampton, in an attempt to return the wagon loaded.

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Ah, but, as I pointed out in an earlier post, on some other railways a “road van” wasn’t necessarily a “brakevan with side doors”. Sometimes it was, and sometimes it wasn’t. It was often what you are calling a “station truck”. It’s just different terminology for the same thing.

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Well, as it happens I am producing a 3D printed G6, Sir!

 

One small problimb though, Sir, I do not own a Midland 1F! As an alternative, could you possibly suggest any other chassis?

 

I own the following:

 

Mainline GWR Collett 2251 0-6-0

Mainline NER (Well...) Worsdell J72 0-6-0T

Bachmann GWR Collett 5700 0-6-0PT

Hornby LBSCR Class A1/x 0-6-0T

Dapol Hunslet 'Austerity' 0-6-0ST

Bachmann SECR 'C' Class 0-6-0

Triang 0-6-0 Chassis

Hornby 0-6-0 Chassis

Bachmann LMS Fowler 3F 0-6-0T Chassis

 

There are possibly others, but I can't think of them right now!

That's why I said I was interested - I hope to be one of your customers!

 

The nearest from your list would be the J72 EXCEPT that the 16mm wheels are a bridge too far in my view.  Trouble is the prototype G6 has a shorter wb than most 'mainstream' 0-6-0s. 

 

I still think the MR 1F is the best one could get using a RTR chassis.  Perhaps you could acquire one, and once you have designed a G6 to fit, if you don't want to keep it I'll buy it and a G6 'top' from you!

 

Chris KT 

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