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Great Southern Railway (Fictitious) - Signalling the changes...


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5 hours ago, Skinnylinny said:

Now, I know that it would be uncommon to see a coal merchant's private-owner wagon far from either the colliery or the merchant's local station, but how far can I stretch this? I ask because of this photo of a rather wonderful private-owner wagon based at Guildford (one end of the GSR) - can we come up with a (plausible!) reason for it to appear at Linton? I'm trying to avoid having too many "branches of existing coal merchants" as I don't think that was particularly common.

L9358_samp1.jpg

(Image source: http://lightmoor.co.uk/books/private-owner-wagons-a-seventh-collection/L9358 )

 

Then again, do I really want to have to letter all that? There isn't a POWSides transfer available...

 

 

Hi Linny,

 

If you fancy a cheat I've got a Wessex Wagons limited edition version of this wagon FJ Bonner/Toogood I wouldn't mind parting with. It's in almost new condition,reasonable box  made by Dapol in 2006.number 48 of  a run of 208. Always up for a swap...I model LBSCR circa 1905 West Sussex/East Hampshire coastal area.

 

If interested send an E....not that sort ta!

 

Cheers, Craig.

Edited by choo1choo
another mucking fuddle!
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4 hours ago, Skinnylinny said:

That is a very good point! So it'd have to be an unusual working, but that would allow such a wagon to appear, especially as Guildford's less than ten miles away and on a direct line. Thank you!

 

As a thought, might also a coal merchant not from the local station be able to supply certain grades of coal to a small business owner in Linton? For example for one of Mr Dibbler's harebrained schemes honest business propositions, guv'nor?

 

I don't know the ins and outs, but there is no reason why one coal merchant with his own wagons might not arrange for a regular delivery to another merchant without, providing he was far enough away not to be a competitive threat, but in the case of a specific industry, that makes a lot of sense. Breweries/maltings required specific coal, for example, and a coal merchant might arrange for a wagonload or two to go direct to a local maltster. 

Edited by Regularity
This is fascinating: http://www.bures-online.co.uk/Maltings/Maltings2.htm
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I don't think the explanation of a customer needing a specific grade of coal works very well out of the box. If they order that grade, the merchant will just pass the order on to an appropriate colliery, or to a factor (in the latter case it may arrive in the factor's wagon). Any merchant should be able to get any grade of coal, if the customer approves the price and the delivery delay, which could be a few weeks. 

 

However, perhaps Mr. Bonner is undercutting the local merchants at Linton? Or perhaps the customer needs the coal right now, not in a month, and Mr. Bonner has stock?

 

Conversely, it looks to me like Bonner's wagon no.1 may be dedicated to supplying Mason and Toogood Ltd. I've come across other cases where a supplier has dedicated wagons to one customer.

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18 hours ago, Regularity said:


Now that really is a small world - a family member lives in a house in the Bures Maltings! I really must pay them a visit some time, especially as they're only one stop from the East Anglian Railway Museum and the Chappel Viaduct.

 

1920px-Chappel_Viaduct_and_Green.jpg

By Rbelcham at the English language Wikipedia, CC BY-SA 3.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=8685128

 

Edit: I almost forgot - another wagon has been produced, inspired by Gary @BlueLightning of this parish, which goes very nicely with the dray modelled above. However, I assume that the wagon is en route to Bisley via Linton (it's only a mile and a half away up the line) while the dray's making smaller local deliveries - it won't be appearing in the goods yard at Linton, but on the street.

 

20200116_105900.jpg

Edited by Skinnylinny
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Well, it has been a fruitful evening! Last night I popped nine letters on a wagon while my dinner was cooking, spelling PATTERSON. This evening at club, while chatting, I produced from that and a blank wagon the following:

20200116_223125.jpg

 

I'm especially pleased with the Farrell & Co one, as it's my first departure from purely-horizontal lettering. It's not perfect, but it's not awful either. I want to add more tiny lettering to it, and it still needs load and tare markings. So this week that's been four wagons (or at least one side of each of four wagons):

20200116_222010.jpg

and when you combine these with the other kit-built wagons so far: 

20200116_214929.jpg

There's definitely a fleet. Now, I need to work on the other sides of four of these, and come up with a wagon for Thos. Kitching (to go with the dray). The dray's namesake has requested a "beige" wagon, which I think means it'll be buff/stone. Not sure that's a great livery for a coal wagon, but I've seen plenty of light-grey (at least when clean!) PO wagons, including some coal ones, so... Finding darker lettering to go on it? That'll be more of a challenge.I might have to raid the darker corners of the transfer box...

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So, in keeping with the wagons theme... I had a long train journey on Friday evening, and a couple of hours free this weekend, and I have another journey coming up this evening. So, while I might not be able to do lettering transfers or painting or gluing, out came the laptop and the CAD software.

Can you tell what it is yet?
image.png.ac7acbe7d6e6eb0b3a4513b50c93fe4f.png
 

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Indeed it is - an LSWR 10-ton (Medium) cattle wagon, later SR Diag. 1508. Built from 1876-1900, thirty of them lasted into Southern stock, but most barely lasted into the early thirties. Progress has occurred in the last hour or so and the wagon has entered... the Third Dimension!
image.png.edb0418f219f17bf5612acc96614cddf.png
Now I just need to bring out the raised detail onthe strapping on the other side of the wagon, do the ends, aaaand then decide if I can be bothered doing the internal planking. Well, what I can of it, as the drawing I have doesn't show it. I could make an educated guess, I suppose.

 

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1 hour ago, Skinnylinny said:

the wagon has entered... the Third Dimension!
 

 

Now I'm looking forward to you doing a manure wagon...

 

(Scatalogical I'm afraid: the turd dimension.)

Edited by Compound2632
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Just putting the planking detail in makes a huge difference. Also added are some of the tie-down rings. Would these have been for attaching sheets to cover the "ventilated" (to put it mildly!) top half? The colour in this render is far too pale for LSWR livery, but darkening it down meant that none of the details could be seen. The bars across the top are placeholders - I intend to leave holes for 0.4mm brass wire, as printing these even vaguely to scale is likely to be impossible.

image.png.41e110e677c974258a66334466d5acbf.png
 

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1 hour ago, Skinnylinny said:

Also added are some of the tie-down rings. Would these have been for attaching sheets to cover the "ventilated" (to put it mildly!) top half? 
 

 

I'd not spotted them before but I now see that Midland cattle wagons had them, under the top rail below the open section. LNWR cattle wagons didn't, but one GA drawing shows  a row of eight 1.25" holes in the top plank marked on the drawing as "for halter ropes", these can be made out in some photos [M. Williams et al., LNWR Wagons Vol.1 (Wild Swan Publications, 2001)]. That might suggest that they were for tying up animals in transit but there's no evidence of that in Midland photos; the LSWR wagon had the rings too far down on the body. I believe it was a requirement that when horses were carried in cattle wagons, the wagons had to be sheeted to prevent the horses from seeing out. I don't know much about horses but presumably they're more liable to be panicked than other livestock - or simply other livestock isn't tall enough to see out* - passenger-rated horseboxes were fully enclosed. The LSWR probably ran more troop trains than most lines; the troopers' horses travelled in cattle wagons, so maybe it was thought worthwhile to provide an easy means of securing the sheet.

 

How much work would be involved in "stretching" the CAD to for one of the 18 ft-long diagrams, e.g. D1506 and its S&DJR variant? 

 

*There's always an exception:

 

765483391_Trianggiraffecar.jpg.9460eed2dfa415eec8456e0177bd59dc.jpg

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I'm not sure how much work would be involved in creating a D1506 from this one, but I am intending on creating a couple of different diagrams of cattle wagons - the idea being that a train of, say, five cattle wagons could come in for a market run, none of which would be the same diagram. The next planned one is the D1507 (18', with X-shaped outside-framing), while a D1506 might be on the cards. If it is produced, I'll certainly have a go at tweaking the planking into SDJR condition, on request.

I've decided to mostly focus on what I'm wanting for my layout at the moment, as I have plenty of stock requirements! I'm also going to want a Stroudley cattle wagon or two, although that might be based on the Smallbrook kit in future, and something ex-SER (I think I'm a bit far from LCDR waters for anything that far afield!)

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2 hours ago, Skinnylinny said:

Just putting the planking detail in makes a huge difference. Also added are some of the tie-down rings. Would these have been for attaching sheets to cover the "ventilated" (to put it mildly!) top half? The colour in this render is far too pale for LSWR livery, but darkening it down meant that none of the details could be seen. The bars across the top are placeholders - I intend to leave holes for 0.4mm brass wire, as printing these even vaguely to scale is likely to be impossible.

image.png.41e110e677c974258a66334466d5acbf.png
 

 

"The colour in this render is far too pale for LSWR livery"  Maybe thats where Hornby went wrong with their brake van?

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20 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I'd not spotted them before but I now see that Midland cattle wagons had them, under the top rail below the open section. LNWR cattle wagons didn't, but one GA drawing shows  a row of eight 1.25" holes in the top plank marked on the drawing as "for halter ropes", these can be made out in some photos [M. Williams et al., LNWR Wagons Vol.1 (Wild Swan Publications, 2001)]. That might suggest that they were for tying up animals in transit but there's no evidence of that in Midland photos; the LSWR wagon had the rings too far down on the body. I believe it was a requirement that when horses were carried in cattle wagons, the wagons had to be sheeted to prevent the horses from seeing out. I don't know much about horses but presumably they're more liable to be panicked than other livestock - or simply other livestock isn't tall enough to see out* - passenger-rated horseboxes were fully enclosed. The LSWR probably ran more troop trains than most lines; the troopers' horses travelled in cattle wagons, so maybe it was thought worthwhile to provide an easy means of securing the sheet.

Look on YouTube for the film ' Farmer Moving South'. From about 6 minutes on there are scenes showing cattle wagons being loaded then sheeted over. The film was taken in winter and it was snowing so this was presumably for weather protection. At about 9 minutes there is a shot which seems to show the bull tethered to an external ring. It is also mentioned that the intention was to carry the pigs in a cattle wagon, but because there were piglets a horsebox was used instead.

Edited by JeremyC
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Thanks for the video, @JeremyC. An interesting look into operations, even if about 50 years too late, although how much did cattle moving change in those 50 years? Probably not all that much apart from the lack of limewash! Speaking of limewash, I'm going to want to put a lot of effort into getting the lower parts of the body, solebars, and underframe looking as good as they can, because that limewash weathering will pick out every little detail, omitted or included.

Not much work done last night, but I did have a visit from my mother (from Sussex, so quite a trip!) who, it turns out, used to go shooting at the Bisley ranges, which Linton replaces in-universe. Cue a lovely long chat about the area, and a bit of extra research! 

I didn't get much chance to work on the cattle wagon, although I did manage to get the basics of the axleguards in place. I'm stealing an idea from @TurboSnailby designing the model with separate solebars, the easier to fit bearings and wheels to, as well reducing the number of supports needed for a successful print. 

 

The divider positioning slots have now been added to one end only (Oxford Rail take note!)
image.png.ea7258f59a3563fc4cb6cff45defa775.png
 

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28 minutes ago, Skinnylinny said:

I'm stealing an idea from @TurboSnailby designing the model with separate solebars, the easier to fit bearings and wheels to, as well reducing the number of supports needed for a successful print. 

 

 

Sensible, in my view. Also an aid to anyone who might want to replace the axleguards with etched brass ones, for compensation in the wider gauges.

 

Limewash. Before:

 

220942422_DY9164DerbyCattleDocks17890CattleVan.jpg.55b1c173c3f1f10669a6e91b94f36a56.jpg

 

and after:

 

2078056324_DY9165DerbyCattleDocks17902CattleVan.jpg.031ddd883cf20de710c65756780adb7f.jpg

 

NRM DY 9164 and DY 9165, released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum.

 

Derby cattle docks, 26 Nov 1909. The brand new No. 17902 has the partition in place in the "small" position - cattle wagons were charged as "small", "medium" or "large"; at one time the railway companies built different lengths of cattle wagon but by the end of the 19th century they'd worked out that it was less faff all round to have one size with a moveable partition. Large cattle wagons got 3" longer as a result, so that there was room to store the partition at one end while still providing the correct length. Your D1508 is a "medium" wagon. Apologies if that's teaching you to suck eggs.

 

Note how relatively little limewash gets onto the solebar, as it's in the shadow of the curb rail. 

 

Re. the piglets going passenger (in a horsebox) - would this be for fear that they might wriggle out through, or at least get stuck in, the gaps between the side planks?

Edited by Compound2632
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Even though I was aware of the different sizes of cattle wagon, having the info out there for those who didn't know is always useful! While some railways (certainly the GWR post-grouping) painted letters at the different divider positions to indicate "S M L" for small, medium and large, I note that these cattle wagons have cast plates with the words "Medium" and "Small" in full on the framing - another little detail for me to add. A good note about the solebars being clean though - I presume the limewash is applied from platform/cattle dock level?

That's a very good point about etched axleguards. I might have to see about producing solebar-only variants.

Re: Piglets, with the film being a very cold night, there was a line along the lines of "If we put 'em in a cattle wagon, they'd freeze to death!"

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2 minutes ago, Skinnylinny said:

While some railways (certainly the GWR post-grouping) painted letters at the different divider positions to indicate "S M L" for small, medium and large, 

 

London Midland & Scottish Railway cattle wagons also had the letters L M S painted in approximately the right positions but not for that purpose!

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But only on one side! The lettering would be on the other end on the other!

Although I've just noticed on the drawings that this Medium cattle wagon appears to have three divider positions in the top set of slots (but interestingly not in the bottom one?): small, medium and about 6-8 inches longer than medium, with the last being right up against the end wall. Unfortunately there are no photographs of this diagram of wagon in my book (An Illustrated History of Southern Wagons - Volume One) - I'll have to do some more research to see if I can find some photos. 

Also interesting in your photos of Midland cattle wagons - no sign of the limewash on the ends, despite the slatted planking at the bottom. Is the wash applied only on the inside (presumably with a brush) and then seeps through the slatted sides/gaps between the planks?

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Can't help with photos, the Wagon Book team couldn't find any, and Mike King's follow up Pictorial doesn't help, but I notice that the LSWR wagons had a second set of tie-rings positioned along the top rail which show up very clearly in photos as they are in silhouette.

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Indeed they do - those are still on the "details to add" list, don't worry, along with the tie-rings on the end, the label clip on the bottom right of the planking, and the horsehook/handle? on the bottom framing. Plus a whole load of underframe detailing! As you say, being in silhouette either against bright sky or dark wagon interior, the top tie-rings are very noticeable so I'll have to be careful to get them to look right.

Thanks for checking Pictorial for me - I don't have a copy of that (yet!)

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