Latest Hornby teak coaches

[The Blue Streak]

Thereby alienating the "I'm not paying that much for a coach" brigade, who, for genuine reasons of limited wallet-size, are not insignificant in the market place. 

 

That is a fair and reasonable statement Duds. But Hornby are able to replicate a good finish with a cheaper process and have done so already.

 

In a earlier post above I hinted at the last Batch of BR teak corridor coaches R4598 - R4602, all made post SK.

 

R4598 to R4601 all had that terrible Ikea finish, yet R4602 (the sleeping car) had a perfectly acceptable teak effect and they were from the same factory from about the same time and all released together.

 

Admittedly the finish wasn't the absolutely astonishing SK finish achieved once upon a time, but it was most acceptable, passed the test from 12 inches away and didn't look out of place running with the SK versions.

 

It can be done using the cheaper process but I think that someone just got it wrong on 4 out of 5 of these and then just perpetuated the mistake on the suburbans.

 

The photos below are stock photos but they are exactly how mine showed up in the flesh, I kept the sleeping car, but turfed the rest and just didn't buy any suburbans.

 

Example of the coffee table look from the last batch - and this is one of the better (?) ones, (check r4601 buffet car for the worst of them )

 

Example of a perfectly acceptable finish from the last batch ( actually looks better in the flesh)

 

Pretty compelling evidence I think.

 

Edit - I don't think anyone (or they shouldn't) believes they are going to get the old SK finish for a hand full of buttons anymore (like was the case at one time) but hopefully We can get the cheaper to print (but still  quite nice) finish for our dollars/pounds as evident on R4602.

I don't normally like to ride the rivet counter bandwagon and I understand and support the need to do things a bit cheaper to make them more affordable. But when Hornby have managed a good finish with a cheaper printing method once, but  subsequently make a mess of it afterwards, it's just annoying. I just want to spend some Money on decent teaks. I really hope this years batch are good enough that I get to give Hornby a huge wad of cash.

 

I rest My Case

Edited January 30, 2018 by The Blue Streak

[Ozexpatriate]

At one time Hornby Teaks were among the most beautifully finished and highly sought after coaches you could buy. The prices those SK versions go for second hand attest to that.

...

When you look at how exquisite the BR Teak corridor coaches were in the rare bird and London Olympics packs and the LNER versions made at the same time, you wonder how they could have got it so wrong later.

Wasn't it the case that the original good teaks had a huge number of individuals processes to get them to that standard?  

The price of the teaks were increased because of the printing process. I well remember Simon Kohler stating this at the time .

The teak finish applied in the Sanda Kan factory was excellent and yes it was documented in a couple of places. My wonky memory suggests there was a feature in a Hornby Collectors' Club magazine at one point.  I do think it was mentioned in Simon Kohler's "Simon Says" blog, though I could be wrong.

 

I do recall an article with photographs of tampo printing machines in a very nice clean environment compared with tampo printing videos that Jason Shron of Rapido Trains has been shared.

 

It is my opinion that the art of how to apply this finish was lost with the move away from the Sanda Kan factory. I do not know whether this is an equipment, expertise or costing exercise with the factory that produces the latest teak coaches, but I suspect, given how dreadful new versions look is that it's probably a combination of all of them all but mostly a case of losing access to the technique/machinery in the Sanda Kan factory.

 

The effort that Rapido is doing for finish on the Dynamometer car is relevant here.  I don't think Rails has revealed the finished product yet.

 

Does anyone have a box showing the factory code for the latest teak coaches.

 

It would be nice to see someone take photographs (using exactly the same photographic setup) of the history of Hornby teak coaches (along with Bachmann Thompson 'scumble' and the forthcoming Rails/Rapido Dynamometer car).

 

There were at least four (was it five) versions of Hornby 'teak' finish and nothing so far is as good as what was produced in the Sanda Kan factory.

 

1. 1970s The really bad old days - unlined Tri-ang Hornby

2. 1980s (and beyond) lined

4. 2010s (early) - Sanda Kan, lined with tampo teak

5. Current

 

Reproduced catalog scans can be found here.

Edited January 30, 2018 by Ozexpatriate

[truffy]

38 printing processes according to Chris Leigh

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/120513-Hornby-thompson-suburban-coaches-lner-teak-issues/?p=2642667

 

If they are so process heavy, fine, raise the price accordingly, or produce a 'full fat' batch and a 'skinny' batch, and at least let the purchaser choose. I can then pay top dollar for a few fine Teaks, or pay less for two rakes of 10. What on earth are those of us with have a rake of the original fine models supposed to do now?

While the two tier proposal is logical from a customer’s perspective, I suspect that it’s a lot more complicated, and less desirable, from the producers’, sockists’, and retailers’ perspectives.

[trevor7598]

The more recent examples of grain pattern on Hornby's teak coaches is not only suggestive of pine,

but the over exaggerated grain runs continuously from one panel, through the doors to the next panel

as though the coach is clad in a single ' sheet ' of timber.

There are few 61ft- 6in trees, knot free, that would do the job !.

The printing technique for a finer grain on individual panels seems to have been lost somewhere.

 

The real tragedy is that recent ' teaks ' are destined for the bargain bin, a real shame.

[micklner]

The first issue had the same wrong way round Door panels, so be wary of them as well.

 

I had a secondhand BR GresleySuburban which I intended to repaint in Teak livery. Sadly the windows were impossible to remove without breaking, due the amount of glue used. In view of this the current versions I wouldn't even look at, other than to use with etched MJT sides if needed in the future.

[Metr0Land]

Thereby alienating the "I'm not paying that much for a coach" brigade, who, for genuine reasons of limited wallet-size, are not insignificant in the market place. 

 

You're not wrong as many people will baulk at paying say £50-60 for a well produced teak.  However, what I can't get my head round is the fact that Hornby have (I assume) found it profitable to do locos and Mk1 coaching stock in Railroad and full-fat versions from the same moulds as they recognise there are different market segments who can be catered for in that way.  Yet with the teaks they now seem to be falling between those 2 stools.

[gwrrob]

Andy Y has just posted these images of the newly released Bachmann Thompson teak coaches. Interesting comparison.

 

 

 

 

Copyright A York.

 

 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Why this fuss over the teak on the Gresley gangwayed stock? However well applied it cannot disguise the incorrect body side profile which means they simply look wrong: claimed to be impossible  to reproduce at the time of introduction, but now successfully achieved on the non-gangwayed stock. Best move by Hornby would be to dump their current gangwayed Gresley stock tooling and start again. With a better choice of end-vestibuled vehicles for preference...

[coachmann]

It would be different if the teak coaches with their flattish sides and gross representation of teak were consigned to the Railroad division and priced at thirty quid a throw. But when Hornby goes to a great amount of trouble to produce neatly finished pre-group liveries and the correct shade of LMS crimson lake on its latest 'Duchess', I begin to wonder who is steering the ship. 

[truffy]

Andy Y has just posted these images of the newly released Bachmann Thompson teak coaches. Interesting comparison.

 

 

Bachmann teak.jpg

 

 

Copyright A York.

 

Makes me wish I modelled LNER. Now, if they produced that W1, I could be tempted! 

[Ozexpatriate]

Andy Y has just posted these images of the newly released Bachmann Thompson teak coaches. Interesting comparison.

Pre-production images for the Thompson coaches are also available in the hidden, old, Bachmann website.

 

I had thought that these were actually metal sided coaches with a faux-teak 'scumble' applied.  In that case, arguably this model only needs to look like a faux-teak application and not real wood.

 

I think it looks nice. Certainly nicer than recent Hornby efforts.

Edited January 30, 2018 by Ozexpatriate

[micklner]

Pre-production images for the Thompson coaches are also available in the hidden, old, Bachmann website.

 

I had thought that these were actually metal sided coaches with a faux-teak 'scumble' applied.  In that case, arguably this model only needs to look like a faux-teak application and not real wood.

 

I think it looks nice. Certainly nicer than recent Hornby efforts.

 

The real ones are Steel with a fake Teak paint applied .

 

I cannot say the Bachmann version  looks like any shade of Teak or natural wood graining I have ever seen anywhere. This had been debated before , some like them some don't . I am in the second camp until I see the production ones for sale.

 

A preservation version

 

[coachmann]

Between the ages of eight and twelve, I saw coaches in teak finish on the Standedge line and more especially on the Woodhead line. It would be unbelievable if no Thompson coaches were in the consists and while it could be said I would not remember much at that age, they all looked brown to me.....No coaches stood out as orange-ish yellow.  The teak looked very dull beside the swish new blood & custard.

Edited January 30, 2018 by coachmann

[HOTTODDY]

Why this fuss over the teak on the Gresley gangwayed stock? However well applied it cannot disguise the incorrect body side profile which means they simply look wrong: claimed to be impossible  to reproduce at the time of introduction, but now successfully achieved on the non-gangwayed stock. Best move by Hornby would be to dump their current gangwayed Gresley stock tooling and start again. With a better choice of end-vestibuled vehicles for preference...

Hear Hear! I was wondering if the lack of tumlehome would get mention. You beat me to it. Kirk kits and other makers could produce good tumblehome as Hornby themselves could do it with their old model short types, also as mentioned, the current suburban stock. I've said before about Hornby's QA/QC department, they don't know or care about their subject in enough detail. Pre-production, PAINTED samples should be vetted by an expert who knows the subject and I know a chap who makes and paints superb examples, don't I Roy? I doubt if Hornby could get anywhere near your standard mate! Even so, Hornby should make a better effort for the price they intend to charge.

 

Tod

[Headstock]

Couldn't agree more, next to a scale Gresley carriage the Hornby offering looks like a great fat heffalump. Take the body off, float the underframe out to sea and the Royal Navy could land planes on it. Worst of the modern RTR carriages, a triumph of detail over accuracy.

[peterfgf]

This photo has just appeared on Facebook:

 

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1981797415418440&set=gm.1809472725793699&type=3&theater

 

I thought it illustrated the teak very nicely (but don't quote me as I'm not an LNER man).

 

Peterfgf

[Oldddudders]

This photo has just appeared on Facebook:

 

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1981797415418440&set=gm.1809472725793699&type=3&theater

 

I thought it illustrated the teak very nicely (but don't quote me as I'm not an LNER man).

 

Peterfgf

 

As said, the interpretation of teak by the preservation movement may or may not be accurate. And was this a wooden or steel vehicle? This is the minefield of minefields for those of us on the fringes of knowledge. 

[micklner]

As said, the interpretation of teak by the preservation movement may or may not be accurate. And was this a wooden or steel vehicle? This is the minefield of minefields for those of us on the fringes of knowledge. 

 

It is a Gresley Teak vehicle. Its not a preservation interpretation, the body is made of Teak with all its variation of shades and grains. In use, the Teak ends up a much darker due to weathering, dirt etc. The LNER bleached the wood with Oxalic Acid to bring back to the original paler colours when shopped.

 

 

The main problem with Bachmann version, it would appear is one base colour used , which matches a softwood shade e.g Pine and is nothing like any shade of Teak. Each panel should be a different shade as like the real thing.

[micklner]

Couldn't agree more, next to a scale Gresley carriage the Hornby offering looks like a great fat heffalump. Take the body off, float the underframe out to sea and the Royal Navy could land planes on it. Worst of the modern RTR carriages, a triumph of detail over accuracy.

A slight exaggeration, the Tumble home on a Gresley Coach is 3 inches =1mm and then only at the bottom third or less of the sides. The underframe is oversize each side by a similar amount.

 

Compared to what they replaced at the time, they were years ahead in quality. Old wrong length Hornby Coaches ,moulded very poor detail and the godawful by modern standards Kirk kits , I don't remember anything else available at their price. The current decent Teak versions,  still fetch high prices on eBay and elsewhere , so a lot of people are very happy with them faults and all. I have a few and I am more than happy with them. 

 

Even now Bachmann have only just caught up, by finally replacing their just as bad earlier Thompson versions. Even these have still have moulded door handles, especially poor and very noticeable on the Brake carriages with the extended side handrails by the guards doors. Look at the photo of the latest Bachmann "Teak" Thompson.

Edited January 31, 2018 by micklner

[Market65]

I hope this will be of help with the teak finish question, here's a photo', which I took in 2009 of the preserved Thompson CL, on the NYMR. It is in the faux teak livery. Neither the current Hornby or the new Thompsons from Bachmann are able to quite match it's finish.

 

 

Best regards,

 

Rob.

[County of Yorkshire]

These images taken at Moorgates on the NYMR are perhaps of interest to show a mixed 8 coach rake of genuine teak vehicles both worn-in and recently outshopped, and the Thompson in ersatz teak.

 

 

 

Cheers, 

 

CoY

[Hilux5972]

The Thompson sticks out like a sore thumb!

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

A slight exaggeration, the Tumble home on a Gresley Coach is 3 inches =1mm and then only at the bottom third or less of the sides. The underframe is oversize each side by a similar amount....

 But that subtle bodyside shaping was so very elegant, and mixed in with mk1s it was instantly possible to see what was what in the train coming into the platform so that you could get into a lovely creaky teaky.

 

...Compared to what they replaced at the time, they were years ahead in quality...

 In surface finish, improved manufacturing technique, running gear, yes. But in looking like the prototype, no. Not a model, a complete failure.

 

... The current decent Teak versions,  still fetch high prices on eBay and elsewhere , so a lot of people are very happy with them faults and all. I have a few and I am more than happy with them...

 There will always be a range of perceptions. But a decently accurate representation is likely to satisfy everyone, whereas a faulty one will only satisfy those prepared to accept low standards.

[Joseph_Pestell]

It's unhelpful to compare Hornby's Teak Gresleys with Bachmann's Thompsons: steel coaches painted a teak colour with fake grain.

 

Hornby used to do a decent job with their representation of teak apart from the small detail of grain direction on the door panels. So how that last batch got through, I really don't know. Shows a complete lack of understanding of what wooden-bodied coaches were.

 

Oddly enough, Hornby-Dublo (or "real Hornby" as I think of it) were making quite a good job of representing teak way back in the 1950s on tinplate.

[Headstock]

A slight exaggeration, the Tumble home on a Gresley Coach is 3 inches =1mm and then only at the bottom third or less of the sides. The underframe is oversize each side by a similar amount.

 

Compared to what they replaced at the time, they were years ahead in quality. Old wrong length Hornby Coaches ,moulded very poor detail and the godawful by modern standards Kirk kits , I don't remember anything else available at their price. The current decent Teak versions,  still fetch high prices on eBay and elsewhere , so a lot of people are very happy with them faults and all. I have a few and I am more than happy with them. 

 

Even now Bachmann have only just caught up, by finally replacing their just as bad earlier Thompson versions. Even these have still have moulded door handles, especially poor and very noticeable on the Brake carriages with the extended side handrails by the guards doors. Look at the photo of the latest Bachmann "Teak" Thompson.

 

Morning Mick,

 

not an exaggeration at all, I challenge you to find a modern 4 mm British steam outline carriage that is worse in it its accuracy, you won't find one. With regard to the underframe it is about 3.5 mm too wide, meaning that Hornby can not correct the tumbelhome without the sole bars sticking out beyond the carriage sides. I might make mention of the queen post that are too close together, or the stunted gangways that don't even reach the carriage roofs, I could go on. People may like them but popularity doesn't equate with a good model.

 

You always drag out the old Kirks as an example for comparison, forget them. A better choice would be with the excellent MJT  and Kemilway kits that are very much competitive price wise. Admittedly you get more carriage from Hornby but that is because they have made them so fat. I would add that the situation with the BG is even worse as these carriages were noticeably narrower than the standard passenger stock, something Hornby has ignored in order to fit the body on to the over wide underframe.