Finding out about 1870-1880s railways

[Lacathedrale]

Lovely photo. It looks so pristine, but I wonder how much of that is the reality and how much is the photograph washing out texture and colouring. 

 

Are there any particular trackwork idiosyncrasies (with regard to alignment, entry/exit/etc. i.e. my previous comment re: slips) - I'm taking the Minories throat as granted, but I wonder if I could both simplify and shorten if such an arrangement would be overkill:

 

 

The alternative is something much shorter, but has obviously compromised routing (there's no direct inbound access to Platform 3, but the throat is literally half the length. It seems a bridge too far to include a turnout from the inbound mainline across a diamond between the slip and three-way to get access to Platform 3!!):

 

Edited January 30, 2018 by Lacathedrale

[Regularity]

In the first plan, the double slip should be a single (slip retained on the lower road) and the single slip should be a double.

[Caley Jim]

..........Or some kind of Ricean layout which would have the platforms and signal box/footbridge framing the exit to the fiddle yard and have the layout itself be a spaghetti of loco servicing roads and goods warehouses.

That's the arrangement I have on Kirkallanmuir.  The station is beyond the overbridge at one end as is merely hinted at by the rampof the island platform poking under the bridge.  the station building will be on the road next to the bridge.

 

Why does a layout have to have a station?  There was more (and in my view more interesting) railway outwith stations.

 

Jim

[Mike Storey]

You may already know this site. It does not have pics going back to your period, but it does give histories of each location and other useful stuff besides.

 

https://www.kentrail.org.uk/index.htm

[phil_sutters]

I’ve no idea what the train is. My first, gut, reaction was LCDR, but it was gut, not science, and although I’ve been there hundreds of times, I can’t remember which route it is in the foreground.

 

[looking at an old map, the train is on the Up South London, so LBSCR metals]

 

My main interest was in how sparkling new everything looks.

 

The coal trains up to nunhead faced a stiff old climb, when you consider how high up Nunhead is ........ on a clear day you can see all the way across the city and beyond, to where the trains started near Bounds Green ....... downhill all the way to just short of Farringdon, then uphill all the way from there, I think.

A railway map - part of a large format double-page spread in a Gazetteer from c1884 - can be seen in one of my albums

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/sizes/81531-new-railway-map-c1884-se-london/large/

 

For maps in that area of London Southwark Council has its own mapping service, with a range of historic maps. As they default to the base menu, if you try to use a specific map's URL, you will need to search for locations and then look at the period you need. https://www.southwark.gov.uk/council-and-democracy/southwark-maps-interactive-mapping-service/old-maps-of-southwark start by clicking the Launch OS maps viewer button. The search box is at top left and the dated map menu will appear on the right. Edit - this link doesn't seem to work - try searching Southwark Mapping Service and go from there - sorry!

Edited January 30, 2018 by phil_sutters

[Lacathedrale]

Right you are, I'm not sure how I missed that - thanks. I can't imagine any station would have been built without direct access to a platform face (i.e. departure-only roads) ? 

[Lacathedrale]

A railway map - part of a large format double-page spread in a Gazetteer from c1884 - can be seen in one of my albums

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/sizes/81531-new-railway-map-c1884-se-london/large/

 

For maps in that area of London Southwark Council has its own mapping service, with a range of historic maps. As they default to the base menu, if you try to use a specific map's URL, you will need to search for locations and then look at the period you need. https://www.southwark.gov.uk/council-and-democracy/southwark-maps-interactive-mapping-service/old-maps-of-southwark start by clicking the Launch OS maps viewer button. The search box is at top left and the dated map menu will appear on the right.

 

Interesting that the Greenwich Park terminus wasn't yet open (1888) and yet the line was there leading up to Blackheath Hill (which is basically just two platforms at track level and little else). I wonder if there were even trains running there?

 

 

 

That's the arrangement I have on Kirkallanmuir.  The station is beyond the overbridge at one end as is merely hinted at by the rampof the island platform poking under the bridge.  the station building will be on the road next to the bridge.

 

Why does a layout have to have a station?  There was more (and in my view more interesting) railway outwith stations.

 

Jim

 

Kirkallanmuir of the 2mmFS magazine for Feb? Crikey, what a small world if so! I would like to run both passenger and freight trains, and have a place to have locomotives on-layout. To me this suggests a modest terminus station fairly obviously -but I'm very happy to be corrected or advised to the contrary. If the station island/ramp/view block leads out to staging however, surely that implies an additional fiddle yard on the opposite end of the board? I'm not sure if I'd want to sacrifice 50% of my layout length for hidden sidings?

[Nearholmer]

It might pay to configure it a bit like Ramsgate Harbour, so that the frontage is scenic throughout.

 

Another station to look at is Central Croydon, all photos of which are ancient, because it closed so long ago!

 

Another couple of sources that occur:

 

- Network rail drawings archive, which hold and now freely publish a lot of ancient stuff, including a lot of station drawings, right back to opening day;

 

- LT museum on line photo collection, which has a lot of early views of the met and district, both of which were then very like your ideas;

 

- TfL records office which holds a lot of material that hasn’t yet passed to the museum collection (I believe the main man is in process of retiring, but I can contact him for you to find out who is succeeding him)

 

- London Railway Record, which has published articles about hundreds of locations over the years.

[Lacathedrale]

HA! I never knew the 'entering the layout from the middle from a tunnel infront of some switchback sidings' was actually a real thing

 

http://maps.nls.uk//view/103679480

 

Central Croydon is indeed quite a funny one - two platforms with runarounds isn't the most exciting but it does compress in the way that Greenwich Park does, doesn't it?

Edited January 30, 2018 by Lacathedrale

[Caley Jim]

Kirkallanmuir of the 2mmFS magazine for Feb? Crikey, what a small world if so!

Guilty as charged m'lud. There's a link to my thread on it in my signature. The full 3m of the front are scenics, with the goods yard in front of the 'station' end and colliery interchange sidings in front of the cassette area at the other end.

 

Jim

[ianmaccormac]

 

Back to post 30. I had thought I had seen it before. There was a discussion on the Brighton Circle group a few years ago and someone managed to get this detail.

A Sharp 2-4-0 numbered B 71 with some Craven stock - type 15 as per Ian White et al book.

Cheers

Ian

[PaulT]

You mentioned baulk road so may want to look at this:

www.broadgauge.org.uk

[Edwardian]

The first August bank holiday at Brighton, 1871:

[Nearholmer]

And, to highlight my point about the LT Museum archives, here we have Charing Cross, SER first, then District, both thumbnail images.

 

If you order scans from them, the quality is astonishingly good, often taken direct from an original large-format glass plate.

 

It’s quite hard to date Met & District images, because the locos and stock stayed very much the same for about thirty five or forty years, but I think the District one is early, maybe 1880s or early 1890s. The Remington Typewriter was in production from the mid 1870s, but when it came to Britain???? I’d be interested to hear views on the date of the photo.

Edited January 30, 2018 by Nearholmer

[Lacathedrale]

That beautiful brighton shot looks lke it was taken from this the bridge in the middle-bottom of this map:

 

http://maps.nls.uk//view/103674052

[Lacathedrale]

And, to highlight my point about the LT Museum archives, here we have Charing Cross, SER first, then District, both thumbnail images.

 

 

How would I go about finding out what I want/need though? 'All pictures of Bricklayers Arms passenger terminus', 'photographs in the SE region dated prior to 1885 with railways as the subject' ? 

[Nearholmer]

It’s best to contact them; the archivists are very helpful.

 

A lot can be viewed and searched on-line, but by no means everything, and their cataloguing and captioning relies on the knowledge of their own people, which can never be encyclopaedic, plus volunteers, and suggestions from people who query existing captions.

 

I don’t think they have a lot of SER material, but it is surprising how many non-LT things they do have.

[Nearholmer]

One that I really like, and have highlighted before.

 

The station master and his family at Beddington in 1887.

[Lacathedrale]

Here are some slot-in-post SER signals circa 1885 at Greenwich:

 

 

and a previously unseen Greenwich Park station shot with a train in it!  https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Greenwich-Park-Railway-Station-Photo-Blackheath-and-Brockley-Line-SE-CR-1/252021775109?hash=item3aadab1b05:g:pvUAAOSwMmBVnnqt

Edited January 30, 2018 by Lacathedrale

[MarcD]

Just found this thread look forward to seeing the progress of the project

 

Marc 

[Regularity]

and a previously unseen Greenwich Park station shot with a train in it!  https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Greenwich-Park-Railway-Station-Photo-Blackheath-and-Brockley-Line-SE-CR-1/252021775109?hash=item3aadab1b05:g:pvUAAOSwMmBVnnqt

Unseen by whom?

 

It’s been in more than one book.

[PatB]

One that I really like, and have highlighted before.

 

The station master and his family at Beddington in 1887.

Does the platform brickwork betray evidence of raising/extension?

[Edwardian]

Here are some slot-in-post SER signals circa 1885 at Greenwich:

 

 

and a previously unseen Greenwich Park station shot with a train in it!  https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Greenwich-Park-Railway-Station-Photo-Blackheath-and-Brockley-Line-SE-CR-1/252021775109?hash=item3aadab1b05:g:pvUAAOSwMmBVnnqt

 

This topic - an excellent topic - prompted me to dig out Ahrons, and over my morning toast to indulge in his colourful descriptions of SER and LCDR carriage stock.  Much chortling ensued.

 

The above picture  - a 'Gunboat', no less, if I am not mistaken, shows clearly the difference between "the unhealthy-looking flesh tint" on the upper panels and the "brownish hue below by way of giving the impression that mortification had set in badly on the lower panels"!

 

This topic and Shadow's wonderful images of Burntisland are two of several influences that will, I'm sure, one day drag me back to the Victorian period should I live long enough to develop the necessary skills!

 

Taking an example closer to home (for me), who wouldn't want to model this (1865)?

[Nearholmer]

Pat

 

Appears to, doesn't it? But then the station building looks as if it fits with the height as in the photo.

 

The station was in the middle of fields and market-gardens, so maybe it had a simple low platform and a hut originally, or perhaps the station building, which was wooden, was jacked-up. Houses didn't spread out this far from the back of Croydon until post-WW2, so the station master must have had a fairly peaceful life, not much more than level-crossing keeping.

 

The place is now a busy tram halt, but in the 1970s it was still a railway station, all very traditional, and still pretty peaceful. Tickets had to be bought from the signalman, by going up the steps and standing on the verandah at the end of the box, under a little porch.

Edited January 31, 2018 by Nearholmer

[Caley Jim]

Appears to, doesn't it? But then the station building looks as if it fits with the height as in the photo.

I have two photographs of Symington Station (first station south of Carstairs Junction) which clearly show that, not only has the platform been raised between the times of the photos, but also the window sills and the door and window lintels have also been raised. You can tell this has happened by comparing the levels with the quoins at the corners of the building.   Friends of ours bought the then closed building and converted it into a house and he clearly remembers that the window sills were very high inside the house.

 

Jim