Please tell me about your experience with loft layouts

[PhilH]

On a slightly wider note if I may, my house is nearly 60 years old and probably breaks every modern building reg in the book. How would that fare if I ever had to make an insurance claim for something or the other, do they make allowances for old houses?

Edited February 6, 2018 by PhilH

[teaky]

I have loadbearing brick walls supporting my loft, down pretty much the centre of the house, the floor/joists don't move at all, I guess advice would be a good idea before starting, my house is also single storey, if that makes any difference.

Building Regs. still apply of course but it is likely to be a simpler conversion in your case.  The load bearing walls will reduce the span(s) of the floor joists thereby allowing smaller timbers to be used.  Escape in case of fire will also be easier so that will simplify things.

 

I suggest you have a chat with your local Building Control first and see what they advise.  If you are going to employ a builder to do the whole job though then start by getting at least three quotations and see what they say when they come to assess the work.

[teaky]

On a slightly wider note if I may, my house is nearly 60 years old and probably breaks every modern building reg in the book. How would that fare if I ever had to make an insurance claim for something or the other, do they make allowances for old houses?

If you are not in the UK I don't know how this affects things but in the UK you are only expected to comply with Building Regs. for any new additions or alterations.

[lezz01]

Hi again.

The reason I have advocated following building regs previously is simple. As LBRJ has said falling through a ceiling is indeed not as funny as in cartoons. I have not done so but my dear old dad did. The house I grew up in had a large roof space. Now this wasn't even used for storage as the only access was the hatch on the upstairs landing. There were a few boards up there that dad moved around to stand on if needed. Our house was on the glide path of the Upper Heyford air base. Great for a young lad growing up in rural Bucks. as my first memory of aircraft was the Vulcans coming right over my house. These were superseded by first F4 phantoms and later still F111's as the base had been transferred to the septics. The down side of this could be noise and the odd bit falling off an aircraft passing overhead although very rare it did happen. When I was 17 I had gone out with my pals on our motorbikes and when we came home mum came running out to the drive in a very distressed state and it took quite a while to make any sense of what was going on. Apparently elevenses had been interrupted by an enormous crash and the situation in the garden was such that because of the orchard it was difficult to see the roof at the rear of the house. Consequently dad had gone up into the roof space to see what had happened. Something had hit the roof and broken some slates and as dad was moving the loose boards to where he could get to the damage safely his foot had slipped off a joist and had gone through the ceiling! He was firmly wedged and not only had he lacerated his leg he had dislocated his hip. The ceiling was of the old slatt and plaster construction and the broken ends of the slats were embedded in his leg. He was in shock and loosing a lot of blood. Now fortunately my mates and I were all senior NCOs in the army cadets and quite sensible lads for 17 year old's. We managed to cut him free with a hand saw and pulled him up and onto the boards and had at least been able to dress his leg with field dressings that because I was in the cadets I had in my room. Not only that but two of us were advanced first aiders. However even though there were four of us we couldn't get him down from the loft and had to wait until the paramedics and fire brigade arrived before he could get adequate pain relief and get him down safely. He was very badly banged about and due to infection setting in spent quite a while in hospital and the word amputation was thrown around more than once much to my mother's distress. Fortunately thanks to the efforts of the staff at Stoke Mandeville hospital this was avoided and in the end he made a full recovery. Now I didn't impart any of this to you all before because I felt that I needed my families permission as my mum and dad were actually my foster parents. As you can imagine this experience has left me weary of roof spaces. Yes you can use them but please pay no attention to those who seem to think that building regs can be ignored or that some how they don't apply to you they can't and they do. Later we found a piece of metal in the garden and even though the US air force denied it had come form one of their planes I know interior green when I see it (part of the landing gear cover), and so did the judge as he was an ex-RAF officer and the compensation was quite useful too as I was treated to an AJS 350 that I had had my eye on, as a reward for being a level headed lad in a crisis and had a liking for old British bikes and not those jap wiz bangs as dad called them. The new roof was quite nice too. Not only that but dad had it properly boarded as well.  If you want to use the roof space do so but get advice from a qualified builder and a building inspector before you do and don't ignore what they tell you.

Regards Lez.Z.                        

[33212]

Just ro add a little more, in my loft, I could stand with all my weight on one joist and bounce up and down, with no movement, there is a load bearing wall running down the midddle roughly. I added extra depth to add strength, I was advised to do this by my uncle who was a quantity surveyor by trade and had built houses etc, as long as the new wood goes over the wall and is screwed in to the joists and side of the rafters, it adds strength, so I was advised. I probably did not need to do it.

 

If you take a cross section through the loft, adding flooring, boards, track and trains only adds a kilo or two per square metre - the heaviest thing up there will be you, all your weight on a square foot or so, so as long as your floor can take your weight without droopy ceilings then you should be good to go. Avoid stacking magazines or books too, massive weight in a concentrated area.

 

Just spread it all out, lots of legs / supports..

 

Matt

[teaky]

So you are still suggesting it's OK to turn the loft into a room without complying with Building Regulations?  The same regulations which exist to protect you and anyone else in your house.  I find this completely unfathomable.

 

You don't know the structure is safe.  You don't know the insulation is sufficient.  You don't know the ventilation is adequate, i.e. that moisture will not be trapped and lead to rot.  You don't know there is adequate fire protection.

 

I assuming you own the house but you're still willing to take these risks?  I just don't get it.

[Andy Hayter]

On a slightly wider note if I may, my house is nearly 60 years old and probably breaks every modern building reg in the book. How would that fare if I ever had to make an insurance claim for something or the other, do they make allowances for old houses?

 

Yes.  Building regs apply at the time of the construction.  However in some cases making an alteration to the property will require that all and any affected area be brought up to current standards.  

 

So you may have a property with round pin sockets throughout, and an extension with electrical feeds, may require the whole property to be fitted with standard square pin sockets and probably rewired at the same time.

[chris p bacon]

I have loadbearing brick walls supporting my loft, down pretty much the centre of the house, the floor/joists don't move at all, I guess advice would be a good idea before starting, my house is also single storey, if that makes any difference.

 

There is a misapprehension that a centre wall is load bearing. This is actually the case in very few houses, and you would only know if you dug out to reveal the depth of footing.  Because of this loft conversions are joisted to the exterior walls as they are the only ones that can be calculated to take the load.

 

Just ro add a little more, in my loft, I could stand with all my weight on one joist and bounce up and down, with no movement, there is a load bearing wall running down the midddle roughly. I added extra depth to add strength, I was advised to do this by my uncle who was a quantity surveyor by trade and had built houses etc, as long as the new wood goes over the wall and is screwed in to the joists and side of the rafters, it adds strength, so I was advised. I probably did not need to do it.

 

If you take a cross section through the loft, adding flooring, boards, track and trains only adds a kilo or two per square metre - the heaviest thing up there will be you, all your weight on a square foot or so, so as long as your floor can take your weight without droopy ceilings then you should be good to go. Avoid stacking magazines or books too, massive weight in a concentrated area.

 

Just spread it all out, lots of legs / supports..

 

Matt

 

 

 That sounds like a really scientific approach..........     Seriously are you suggesting that because you can bounce up and down on a joist and you couldn't see, or feel movement then it's all fine.

 

Please...I'll put this as politely as I can...If you don't know what you are talking about....then Don't.. ....Someone may well believe that you actually have some knowledge when you clearly don't.

[33212]

There is a misapprehension that a centre wall is load bearing. This is actually the case in very few houses, and you would only know if you dug out to reveal the depth of footing.  Because of this loft conversions are joisted to the exterior walls as they are the only ones that can be calculated to take the load.

 

 

 

 

 That sounds like a really scientific approach..........     Seriously are you suggesting that because you can bounce up and down on a joist and you couldn't see, or feel movement then it's all fine.

 

Please...I'll put this as politely as I can...If you don't know what you are talking about....then Don't.. ....Someone may well believe that you actually have some knowledge when you clearly don't.

 

Well, having actually completed a DIY loft conversion, from an unuseable, uninsulated space, to a useable, insulated space, with a velux signed off by the DS (who was happy with the workmanship) and had the whole house, including the electrics I put in (remember you could do your own installations then without sign off) the loft and the rest if the house were part C certified just last year following an extension build, I am more than happy that I am not about to meet any problems. Re electrics, you can install your own today, you just need a tame electrician to test and connect up, and issue a part C certificate.

 

Not sure if you are just an internet armchair know-it all or have actaully done anything "handy" but when my loft was done in 2003, 15 years ago, I was satisfied with my workmanship, that I was not endangering myself, my wife or the property and still am today.

 

If you wish to do a conversion today, seek professional advice - there, does that satisfy the "compliance police" ??

[chris p bacon]

Well, having actually completed a DIY loft conversion, from an unuseable, uninsulated space, to a useable, insulated space, with a velux signed off by the DS (who was happy with the workmanship) and had the whole house, including the electrics I put in (remember you could do your own installations then without sign off) the loft and the rest if the house were part C certified just last year following an extension build, I am more than happy that I am not about to meet any problems. Re electrics, you can install your own today, you just need a tame electrician to test and connect up, and issue a part C certificate.

 

Not sure if you are just an internet armchair know-it all or have actaully done anything "handy" but when my loft was done in 2003, 15 years ago, I was satisfied with my workmanship, that I was not endangering myself, my wife or the property and still am today.

 

If you wish to do a conversion today, seek professional advice - there, does that satisfy the "compliance police" ??

 

It's 'Part P' for electrical.

 

Re the bold.

 

I'm not a DIY-er but a time served Carpenter of 39 years (as well as a joinery shop foreman for 2 years with several apprenticed carpenters ) I've worked on many projects and for the last 16 years have been building my own houses to a very high standard (The architects use them as their show pieces)  I work alongside structural engineers and technicians and keep apace of the standards of todays building regulations. I'm proud of what I've achieved and it irks me when DIY-ers think that they know it all after watching an episode of changing rooms.

 

Re the text in red'  In the post above you say the Building inspector was happy, and yet in your post of the 5th you advocate misleading the BI as to the purpose of the conversion. It's no wonder that BI's don't trust householders to tell the truth.

 

 

Next was to fit a roof Velux "means of escape" top hinged window, did this myslef, and building inspector signed off - if they ask what the loft is to be used for just say storage,

 

 

In all seriousness please don't advise people to ignore the correct procedure for conversions and building works, the rules and guidance is there to improve our housing stock not make it worse.

[33212]

It's 'Part P' for electrical.

 

Re the bold.

 

I'm not a DIY-er but a time served Carpenter of 39 years (as well as a joinery shop foreman for 2 years with several apprenticed carpenters ) I've worked on many projects and for the last 16 years have been building my own houses to a very high standard (The architects use them as their show pieces)  I work alongside structural engineers and technicians and keep apace of the standards of todays building regulations. I'm proud of what I've achieved and it irks me when DIY-ers think that they know it all after watching an episode of changing rooms.

 

Re the text in red'  In the post above you say the Building inspector was happy, and yet in your post of the 5th you advocate misleading the BI as to the purpose of the conversion. It's no wonder that BI's don't trust householders to tell the truth.

 

 

 

 

 

 

In all seriousness please don't advise people to ignore the correct procedure for conversions and building works, the rules and guidance is there to improve our housing stock not make it worse.

 

Indeed, part P..my bad.

 

The DS was happy for the loft to be used as a railway room as it was not classed as a permanent habitable room in his mind, as it does not have a fixed staircase or space for a bed etc and all of the roof structure remained as built then, and still does, so being a reasonable professional I am sure he found the middle ground compromise, due to me putting in the means of escape (I could go out across the roof and down if needed) - this was 15 years ago so maybe things have changed...no doubt they have, but I fully advocate the use of a loft for a railway, a great use of a generally under utilised space in British housing.

[reggie]

Sorry Lezz but your story talks about someone putting their foot through the plasterboard of the ceiling while moving loose boards around, that is def' not the same as a well boared floor of a loft, and i am in no way suggesting anyone should use a loft in that way.

 

Someone else said the loft joists are there to only hold up the ceiling - not so, also please explain how a water tank can be put in a loft across the joists - 1 cubic mtr of water is 1 ton, so if the tank is half that it is still half a ton. A very heavy weight for joists only there to hold ceilings up.

 

Joists and rafters are designed to hold the wieght of the roof, often tile, plus the weight of snow, again very heavy. 

 

Safety factors are calculated into everything in good design too.

 

I  am yet to hear of 3 examples of a serious collapse of ceiling/roof caused by a railway in the loft (I don't count someone putting their foot through platserboard while balancing on loose boards or joists).

 

Oh and I'm not advising anyone to do anything - we are each  responsible for our own actions, I'm just saying what i have done and what a lot of modellers do without injuring/killing themsleves or family members.

 

I think the only thing we will agree on is that we will never agree on this issue...

Edited February 6, 2018 by reggie

[chris p bacon]

Someone else said the loft joists are there to only hold up the ceiling - not so, also please explain how a water tank can be put in a loft across the joists - 1 cubic mtr of water is 1 ton, so if the tank is half that it is still half a ton. A very heavy weight for joists only there to hold ceilings up.

 

Joists and rafters are designed to hold the wieght of the roof, often tile, plus the weight of snow, again very heavy. 

 

Safety factors are calculated into everything in good design too.

 

I  am yet to hear of 3 examples of a serious collapse of ceiling/roof caused by a railway in the loft (I don't count someone putting their foot through platserboard while balancing on loose boards or joists).

 

Oh and I'm not advising anyone to do anything - we are each  responsible for our own actions, I'm just saying what i have done and what a lot of modellers do without injuring/killing themsleves or family members.

 

I think the only thing we will agree on is that we will never agree on this issue...

 

 

A cubic metre of water is 1000 litres, the average domestic tank is approx 25 gallons which equates to 90 kg. The weight of tanks is taken into account at design with their position above first floor walls and with bracing to the tank support. Water is a 'dead' load as it doesn't move about and is constant.

 

As for the weight of tiles they are carried by the rafters, the triangulation of the rafters and ceiling joists with either 'W' trussing or purlins is more than capable of carrying the weight on the outside, not on the ceiling joists. Snow is the heaviest load a roof can bear,  structural integrity can easily be compromised by loading the ceiling joists and flexing their fixing at wall plate level with the rafters.

 

You will not agree as no one likes to be told they're wrong.

Edited February 6, 2018 by chris p bacon

[LBRJ]

Crikey! this is getting like the Beast That Will Not Die here!

 

Let me make in even plainer............

 

I really do not care what idiots do "just because they can" - What you do in you loft is nothing to do with me; I just hope it does not kill you for a trainset set up.

 

What you offer as advise as to the acceptable actions of others is something to do with me, if only because I know the truth.

 

This is somewhere near the #1 railway modelling website on the internet - People will look here for good advice - sense simply has to prevail and be seen to do so.

 

This is not about what colour "GWR Green" is - its about serious stuff, possibly lethal stuff!

[Mike140]

I think what we have here is a classic case of the unstoppable force meeting the unmovable object. Advice vs Experience. On one side we have those that are clearly very knowledgeable when it comes to buildings, safety, construction etc and on the other side we have those that see any free space and decide to shove a railway in to it, and also those that have already done so with no noticeable consequences - I fit in to that category.

By no means am I suggesting everyone should go and build a railway in their loft right away. All I know is that there has been one up there for 30 years and the house hasn't fallen down and the roof hasn't collapsed, and I have no other option. I don't know how the ceilings haven't come through due to the weight of all the junk I've pulled down from there recently, though. That was certainly an eye-opener.

 

I think this whole thread can be broken down in to two points -

1. Take the advice from those here who know about construction. Get everything checked before you start building anything. After that, if you do make the decision to go up there;

2. Take the experience from those here who have done it before. There are pros and cons of using a loft for a layout. Central heating vs blood-sucking jet-propelled bats in my case.

And something that I quite frankly can't believe hasn't even been touched upon amid all the chaos - Could you compromise? Could you build a layout in sections, such as shelves, and store it somewhere when it's not in use and find a space to set it up to run trains? As per my original plan for my new layout - Store it on a wall and set it up in the dining room... or even in the garden if it's nice out.

 

No one seems to have noticed that the OP hasn't been back after stating that he's not using his loft on Page 2 

[Richard_A]

I recently put in a new floor in my loft, using some eco joists which were left over from some timber framed houses the company I worked for were building.

 

When I asked for the inspector to come and check he nearly refused to, because I didn't have a design for them, even though I had to shorten them to fit, so they were more than adequate for the span, which went from the dividing walls between adjacent properties, which I'd bolted a trimmer onto each and fitted joist hangers.

 

After a bit of a dressing down from him, he did sign it off after I explained to him, that I work in the building industry, so I'm not trying it on, and that until I have some plans it will just be used as storage, but I took on board what was said and any further work will wait until I have plans.

 

So anybody who thinks that trying to fool the system is OK, are quite frankly idiots.

[gordon s]

.....and just wait until you have an insurance claim or come to sell your home.  Insurance companies are experts in reducing or negating claims.  That's part of the overall profit equation and God forbid you ever have a problem, but you could lose a lot to save a little.  The cost of a structural engineer and the application to Building Control/Regulations is probably going to be in the region of £1000 and well spent.

 

If ever you want to move, the paperwork involved in the conveyancing package is considerable and every change to your home will require proof that it has been done in accordance with the current law.  Of course you can say it was much older than it actually was, but it's very easy to date any installation these days by the materials that were used. 

 

I'm a fairly accomplished DIY'er with a well equipped workshop that can handle most things, but I wouldn't cut corners where regulations are concerned.  You may save a few bob up front, but it will come back and bite you at some time in the future.

[gordon s]

Curiosity got the better of me, so I dug out our loft conversion drawings.  If anyone follows my layout thread (Eastwood Town) you will see a room that was converted from the loft space above a garage.  Still a loft space as such and part of the main house.

 

The brief to the architect that this would be a room primarily to house a model railway, but it could be described as a bedroom should we ever sell our home.  Structural engineers were called in and the final approved design incorporated not one, but five RSJ's (A,B,C,D & E) to support the weight and strengthen the roof.  Even though the overall space is 18' x 18' the usable space is reduced by two feet either side because of headroom issues.

 

The beam at E was over 6m long and was lifted by hand and slid into a hole in the end of the roof.  It was then passed across the loft space and inserted into a hole the other side.  I watched a whole team of guys doing this by hand and it was akin to building Stonehenge.  I have no idea what H & S would have made of it, but the builders seemed very happy and behaved as though this was an everyday experience.

 

This space has no water tanks or other heavy objects and is accessed via a set of stairs from ground level.

 

 

Edit:  Forgot to add the house was built in 1992 and the work done in 1998.....and I still don't have anything running......

Edited February 7, 2018 by gordon s

[reggie]

Correction Chris - you can get water tanks of 50 gallons quite easily - that is some weight over say three rafters. You are obviously a master craftsman and very proud of you work  and I have never disagreed that ideally we should all have loft conversions, however the only place I could have the layout I wanted was in the loft, I have imo, taken reasonable steps to make sure it is as good as possible and am yet to see any negative impact on the structure of the building.

 

As for others who accuse of recklessness, taking our life in our hands, risking life and limb of the whole house every time we ascend the loft - I say again - prove it, put your high horse opinions where your comments are - give me 3 examples of disaster caused by a loft layout. While youtube is not a guide how to do anything it shows clear examples where many people have loft layouts without any issues at all - so I can prove that.

 

As for being wrong Chris - I'm not, if I were all the disasters you and the Loft Police say will happen would have happened to me and countless others - it hasn't. I say to you again prove me wrong.

 

This thread is getting pretty lame now...I'm off into the loft - I hope I make it back in one piece.

Edited February 7, 2018 by reggie

[33212]

Correction Chris - you can get water tanks of 50 gallons quite easily - that is some weight over say three rafters. You are obviously a master craftsman and very proud of you work and I have never disagreed that ideally we should all have loft conversions, however the only place I could have the layout I wanted was in the loft, I have imo, taken reasonable steps to make sure it is as good as possible and am yet to see any negative impact on the structure of the building.

 

As for others who accuse of recklessness, taking our life in our hands, risking life and limb of the whole house every time we ascend the loft - I say again - prove it, put your high horse opinions where your comments are - give me 3 examples of disaster caused by a loft layout. While youtube is not a guide how to do anything it shows clear examples where many people have loft layouts without any issues at all - so I can prove that.

 

As for being wrong Chris - I'm not, if I were all the disasters you and the Loft Police say will happen would have happened to me and countless others - it hasn't. I say to you again prove me wrong.

 

This thread is getting pretty lame now...I'm off into the loft - I hope I make it back in one piece.

Quite, just inspected the entire upstairs if my house and the loft supports, beams, purlins and everything, no cracks or anything to worry about, one contented DIY'er sitting with a beer watching two 47's pulling 12 bogies each meandering round, might fire up the pair of 37's on HAA's next, always a pleasing sight, will sit near the hatch ready to dive out incase of emergency.

 

My place was built in 1950 and is brick built throughout, even internal walls are brick, no cheapo plasterboard walls.

Edited February 7, 2018 by 33212

[Andy Hayter]

Oh dear

 

Well all of these I did it and I did not have any problems (and that would include mine on the first page) sound a lot like the guy who has had a skinful, cannot afford a taxi home and drives himself home.  He then recommends this to all his mates because he did not have an accident and did not get stopped and breathalysed. 

 

For all those who think that you are just adding a few bits of ply and some track to the loft, remember that you have also laid several hundred kilos of flooring.  You may well get away with it, but that is it: You are getting away with it just like our drunk driver.

[chris p bacon]

I give up. 

 

It seems that rather than acknowledge that we have some good building regulation standards that improve our housing stock, some would rather bodge something together because they haven't seen 3 examples of failures and then argue when they're told they should have followed the law of the land.

 

I'll make one last comment about lofts that I wasn't going to bother with but it popped up earlier.

 

2. Take the experience from those here who have done it before. There are pros and cons of using a loft for a layout. Central heating vs blood-sucking jet-propelled bats in my case.

 

 

Look up the protection of Bat species and the penalties for disturbing their roosts. 

http://www.bats.org.uk/pages/bats_and_the_law.html

 

No 2 & 3 cover domestic properties.

 

I've have experience of neighbours that tried to stop a development by claiming the site had Bats, upon inspection it was noted the bats were roosting in 2 roof spaces of neighbouring houses and as such the homeowners were not allowed access to the roof space unless by licence.

[Mike140]

Alright. After clearly trying to find middle ground and obviously failing miserably, seeing as this has now devolved in to finding anything to nitpick about, I'll say this as my last post here. I don't know where the one single bat that was ever seen in the loft in 30 years came from nor do i know where it went and it has never been seen since. It may have very well come in and gone out through the large open window in the roof, previously mentioned. We didn't disturb a roost, nest, home or anything else. There was nothing there. We checked, thoroughly. There's no need to get the bat police involved in this as well. I'd like to take the opportunity to openly apologise to all of the spiders, moths and gnats I must have disturbed over the years while simply trying to enjoy my hobby. I now see the error of my ways and accept that I'm not allowed to partake in this hobby unless I have tens of thousands of pounds to spend on a purpose built building.

[lezz01]

I guess there will always be an idiot that builds a mansion or castle without planing permission and hide it behind a haystack eh?

Lez. 

[reggie]

Oh dear

 

Well all of these I did it and I did not have any problems (and that would include mine on the first page) sound a lot like the guy who has had a skinful, cannot afford a taxi home and drives himself home.  He then recommends this to all his mates because he did not have an accident and did not get stopped and breathalysed. 

 

For all those who think that you are just adding a few bits of ply and some track to the loft, remember that you have also laid several hundred kilos of flooring.  You may well get away with it, but that is it: You are getting away with it just like our drunk driver.

 

 I wasn't going to comment anymore on this thread, but I take exception to being compared to a drunk driver and being called an idiot.

 

If any of you pious men can get down from the moral highground long engough to actually read my posts you will see I have never disagreed that the ideal solution is to have a proper loft conversion. Sadly not all of us are able to afford to do this and may not have any other availabe space to persue our hobby. Therefore I and others take, in our opinion, an 'acceptable risk', to make our available loft space as good and safe as possible. As yet I do not know of anyone who has had a major problem doing this, but you condem us all the same.

 

It is however acceptable to you all for someone to cram a loft with magazines, books, toys, clothes etc at considerable weight, as many people do, but unacceptable and comparable to drunk driving and idiocy to properly board a loft (which is an evenly distributed load across the whole loft and is perfectly legal to do btw), fit a loft ladder, clear the space and have a model railway. 

Edited February 8, 2018 by reggie