Please tell me about your experience with loft layouts

[chris p bacon]

 which is an evenly distributed load across the whole loft and is perfectly legal to do btw

 

 

 

It's not. It contravenes Building regs if it's not a designed load floor. Building regs and planning are on the statute book which is the law of the land.

[Andy Y]

I wasn't going to comment anymore on this thread,

 

I can help you with that as I will remove access to the topic on the basis that you are continuing to advocate disregard for the law.

 

We have just bought a property where an idiot consciously avoided involving building control on a structural issue. He was forced to have an inspection and a report made otherwise he'd have lost the house sale if he could not prove the work complied with standards.

[33212]

It's not. It contravenes Building regs if it's not a designed load floor. Building regs and planning are on the statute book which is the law of the land.

So we caanot even use a loft for storing things balanced on the beams?

 

I expect 99.9% of the properties with a loft are acting in contravention of the law then....but reading the words on the planning portal, introduces lots of "mights" and "mays" not musts..

 

Boarding-out for storage

In most homes, the existing timber joists that form the "floor" of the loft space ( i.e. the ceiling of the rooms below) will not have been designed to support a significant weight (known as "load"). The joists tie the pitched members of the roof together to prevent them spreading and support the ceiling lining of the rooms below.

 

An excessive additional load, for example from storage, it may mean that the joists are loaded beyond their design capacity. If you decide to lay flooring boards over the existing joists in the loft space, then this may require a Building Regulations Application to Building Control. Your local Building Control body will be able to advise you on this issue.

 

Creating a liveable space

If you decide to create a liveable space (a 'livable space' is where you intend to use the room as a normal part of your house, this includes spare bedrooms which may be used infrequently) in an existing loft space of a home it is likely to require a range of alterations.

 

 

The DS will ask for the measurements of the joists, so measure before calling, a liveable part of the house would need a staircase, ladder access means that it is not part of the liveable space....you should not have ladder access and have a bed up there of course.

 

Best advice is to speak to your building control - mine was satisfied with what I had done and have the certificate..its cost about £400 for the building control application which included the visit when work was complete, peanuts in todays money in the hobby.

[Colin_McLeod]

One possible explanation of the opposing views on this thread is that perhaps the building regulations (or some of them) are over the top or too many belts and braces and pieces of string.

 

This might explain why there are so many loft layouts that have not caused collapse and might also explain why the requested three examples of collapse have so far not materialised.

 

 

Discuss:

[gordon s]

Just mind how many Railway Modellers you put up there.....

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2073768/Essex-pensioner-Richard-Phillips-spends-11-HOURS-pinned-bed-ceiling-collapsed.html

[Mookie]

Just mind how many Railway Modellers you put up there.....

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2073768/Essex-pensioner-Richard-Phillips-spends-11-HOURS-pinned-bed-ceiling-collapsed.html

 

 

That's a lot of magazines.

[Andrew P]

Just mind how many Railway Modellers you put up there.....

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2073768/Essex-pensioner-Richard-Phillips-spends-11-HOURS-pinned-bed-ceiling-collapsed.html

Yachts are heavier than Model Locos though!!!!!!!              

[teaky]

There is probably some truth in that statement but then the regs. have to cater for everything.

 

A house roof will be designed to withstand a certain load of snow, gale force winds over a certain speed and other weather-related challenges.  The fact that these things may only occur rarely doesn't invalidate their inclusion.

 

Timber is a natural product and so the strength grading will have to take into account a range of factors which may have affected the strength during the growth of the tree and build in a sensible margin of error.  The fact that a lot of the time a joist of a certain size will be OK doesn't mean that there won't be a duff one every now and again and the way in which a roof is designed means that all the elements (joists, rafters, gable walls, ties etc. etc.) form part of a complete structure and which needs to have weak points designed out of it.

 

Fire regulations are there to help minimise the risk.  There are lots of fires in the UK but the majority of us will not experience a serious one.  That does not invalidate the fire safety aspects of the regulations.

 

Brick and block walls can have huge variations in strength depending on whether the correct materials have been used and even when the bricks and blocks are up to scratch, whether the mortar has been correctly mixed.  The regs. won't accept substandard workmanship but have to allow for normal variations in materials and abilities.

 

Incorrect ventilation, wrongly installed insulation, poor sealing around windows and so on leading to damp getting into the structure can takes years or decades to manifest themselves.  By that time the original workman and/or owner may be long gone.  That's why I wouldn't buy a house without certified alterations.

 

Insulation requirements are there to protect the environment.

 

My personal opinion is that I am prepared to accept some excess margin of error in order to ensure that my family, myself, our possessions and our accommodation (our largest investment) are safe.  I would not contemplate doing any significant alterations that did not comply with Building Regulations.  I am not a professional builder, just a DIYer, but I have tackled an extension, a new kitchen, a garage conversion and am currently converting the loft.  The Approved Documents can be a little daunting at first but as you work through them they all make sense and I haven't struggled to meet the standards and to obtain Building Control approval.

 

The regs do evolve and this does include simplifying things and removing requirements.  It used to be the case that all fire doors required self-closers but this is no longer required in all cases.  I believe it was realised that too many people propped open doors fitted with self-closers.  There also used to be a requirement to have escape windows and ladders and such like but it was decided that getting people out onto a roof two storeys up was too dangerous and they focussed on reducing the ability of fire to spread.  There also used to be a requirement for a certain amount of headroom over a given area, now this recognises that there are too many houses with low roofs which would satisfy all other requirements so the regs are more relaxed.

 

 

I am surprised that more loft disasters haven't been posted online, especially since there's such a massive amount of dross posted, but postings about lofts it do appear to be dominated by promotional material from conversion companies.  I did find a couple though and I've seen one a year or two ago that someone posted relating to a dangerously unsafe loft and a model railway (large train set really) which I think originated with Daily Mail and may therefore be suspect.

 

Posted on a discussion forum: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=207&t=1655781

 

How not to alter a roof: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/08/renovation-disaster-as-700k-house-in-lewisham-collapses-during-b/

 

 

The Building Regulations exist for a reason.  It is a legal requirement to comply.  You won't be (fully) insured without complying.

 

We can't all afford everything we would like.  I do sympathise with people who cannot afford to convert their lofts properly but there are plenty of things I'd like that I'll never be able to afford.  I cannot afford to pay for a loft conversion company to do the whole job for me in a few weeks but over many years I've managed to save enough to be able to do the work myself.  I'm not going to jeopardise my expenditure by not capitalising on the value added to our house though and so I want to be able to describe the space as a habitable room which I cannot do if I don't obtain Building Control approval.

 

 

Apologies for the long-winded reply.

Edited February 8, 2018 by teaky

[Colin_McLeod]

That's a lot of magazines.

583 years worth of Railway modellers!

[Clearwater]

How many people who do overload their lofts and have them collapse are going to 'fess up and post pictures? Most people in that situation will be quietly paying a professional to come in and sort their mess out... It's the exception and newsworthy story like the link above that we see, not the everyday "I've noticed some bowing in my ceiling" that builders get called in to sort out.

[rab]

I realise a forum is all about discussion,

but this thread does seem to have

run it's course, the same old arguments

coming up again and again.

I said when it started it was a can of worms.

The OP may not have a clear answer,

but I think they can see they have 3 options:

1. Don't use the loft as a home for a layout

2. Have the loft properly converted

as a home for a layout.

3. Do a simple board it hope

no one finds out/

nothing disastrous happens.

Edited February 8, 2018 by rab

[LBRJ]

To me the point of answering is not to advise those who are going to build Kings Cross in the the Rafters - they will do as they do and maybe get away with it

 

The whole point of my, and others, giving a lot of truthful negative advice is, literally,to negate the view that it is sound practice. Its not.

 

This is the internet, not some private discussion - People do read it and think its all good when it patently isn't.

[Bergmann]

This is the internet, not some private discussion - People do read it and think its all good when it patently isn't.

That's the bad thing about the internet and the forums, because you get more wrong as correct answers.

[ianathompson]

My loft is not boarded, does not contain a layout and it never will do. I am fortunate enough to have a large room in the house dedicated to the layout.

 

A lot of advice has been placed upon this thread about the loadings of the rafters, which I do not know enough about to disagree with.

 

Unfortunately, some years ago, my header tank started to overflow because of a fault in the inlet valve.

The only solution was to go into the loft and replace the valve and float.

This obviously meant standing on the rafters and avoiding putting a foot through the ceilings below whilst wrestling with the plumbing fittings.

It was a cold dirty job but I eventually sorted the problem out and was glad to retreat to civilisation.

 

My point is this:

Surely some provision must have been made in the specification to allow for workmen to get into the roof space to do essential maintenance.

 

I am not advocating that this is an excuse to build a layout in this space but I would like to know how it is possible to do this maintenance and yet not to board the area and use it for storage.

My parents had this done (by workmen) in both their previous houses to a basic level and stored "stuff" up there without any apparent detrimental effects.

 

I am not suggesting storing magazines here on a permanent basis, or anything else heavy, but the implication of some posts here is that the whole area is out of bounds.

 

If that is the case (and I do not know enough to say yea or nay) what are we meant to do when the essential services in the roof become faulty?

 

Ian T

[TheQ]

Two odd things, I remember from reading in Yachting magazines!! that the man mentioned above, would be what we call an arm chair modeller, he had never owned a yacht!!

 

Years ago (48?!) a friend at school didn't turn up one day, and when he did the next he was black and blue. His ceiling had collapsed in on him. no his ceiling wasn't overloaded. There were no loading calculations

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 Just 300 years of lath and plaster and many layers of paint had had enough...

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have Norfolk Reed and plaster ceilings, anyone got a crash helmet?

Edited February 9, 2018 by TheQ

[bgman]

Just mind how many Railway Modellers you put up there.....

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2073768/Essex-pensioner-Richard-Phillips-spends-11-HOURS-pinned-bed-ceiling-collapsed.html

 

 

Blimey ! Thats definitely sailing a bit too close to the wind !!!

[chris p bacon]

My point is this:

Surely some provision must have been made in the specification to allow for workmen to get into the roof space to do essential maintenance.

 

 

The provision of tanks in the loft is decreasing, but when they are located there, the changing of ball cocks etc does not present a long term problem as the maintenance of them is sporadic.

 

It is the loading of ceiling joists with flooring and the movement of a live load that is the issue.

 

With modern energy efficient sealed system boilers and Megaflow tanks we rarely put storage tanks in lofts now.  When I build, if there are any service valves or junction boxes that might need future access, they are placed within arms length of the access hatch so they can be accessed by a stepladder/platform with no need to enter the loft and disturb the 400/450mm thick insulation I place there. 

[teaky]

My loft is not boarded, does not contain a layout and it never will do. I am fortunate enough to have a large room in the house dedicated to the layout.

 

A lot of advice has been placed upon this thread about the loadings of the rafters, which I do not know enough about to disagree with.

 

Unfortunately, some years ago, my header tank started to overflow because of a fault in the inlet valve.

The only solution was to go into the loft and replace the valve and float.

This obviously meant standing on the rafters and avoiding putting a foot through the ceilings below whilst wrestling with the plumbing fittings.

It was a cold dirty job but I eventually sorted the problem out and was glad to retreat to civilisation.

 

My point is this:

Surely some provision must have been made in the specification to allow for workmen to get into the roof space to do essential maintenance.

 

I am not advocating that this is an excuse to build a layout in this space but I would like to know how it is possible to do this maintenance and yet not to board the area and use it for storage.

My parents had this done (by workmen) in both their previous houses to a basic level and stored "stuff" up there without any apparent detrimental effects.

 

I am not suggesting storing magazines here on a permanent basis, or anything else heavy, but the implication of some posts here is that the whole area is out of bounds.

 

If that is the case (and I do not know enough to say yea or nay) what are we meant to do when the essential services in the roof become faulty?

 

Ian T

 

My understanding is that domestic lofts are designed primarily to support the roof above and ceiling below including weather conditions + water cisterns (with additional timbers correctly fitted to spread the load) + a sensible amount of distributed storage of the kind of things we usually put up their (xmas decorations, old toys, the odd item of small furniture etc.) + one person moving about to access what is up there on an occasional basis + a margin of error.  Thus, adding small loft boards to make storage easier ought to be OK.

 

The wording of the Building Regulations seems to fit with this in the sense that it suggests consulting Building Control if you wish to store a larger amount of stuff (load) up there.  33212's post above includes the following quotation "An excessive additional load, for example from storage, it may mean that the joists are loaded beyond their design capacity. If you decide to lay flooring boards over the existing joists in the loft space, then this may require a Building Regulations Application to Building Control. Your local Building Control body will be able to advise you on this issue.".

 

The first thing to say is that I do not know this for a fact and I don't work in the building trade but I read this somewhere and can't for the life of me remember exactly where.  It was a document or book on roof construction though not just any old forum.  Perhaps one of our (ex) Building Inspector members could confirm this?  If not then please treat the above info. with caution.

 

All the DIY sheds sell packs of 12mm chipboard panels suitable for storage (definitely not for anything substantial) and they don't appear to come with any warning information.  I'd have thought they would be over cautious these days if there was any doubt.  for example, Wickes only include the following statements:

• Not to be used in living space, consult a builder if using area as habitable space
• Do not use on joists or ceiling ties more than 600mm apart
• Butt joints must be positioned in the centre of joists

[bgman]

As some here may be aware I am a retired Building Control Officer of many years standing and a railway modeller to boot.

 

Whilst I really don't want to make specific comments ( sorry ) I would urge anyone to contact their Local Authority Building Control department and seek their informed and unbiased help and knowledge if considering a loft for use.

 

You may also wish to consider informing your mortgage provider if necessary.

[lezz01]

I suspect that if there were a national survey, with the assurance of immunity from prosecution and the administration of a truth serum. The most common use for domestic roof spaces would be ..........illegal pot farming........ not suggesting you take it up​ just saying is all     

Regards Lez.Z.   :Djust saying is all

[TheQ]

I suspect that if there were a national survey, with the assurance of immunity from prosecution and the administration of a truth serum. The most common use for domestic roof spaces would be ..........illegal pot farming........ not suggesting you take it up​ just saying is all     

Regards Lez.Z.   :Djust saying is all

well, thats what they tell their friends, as it's cooler than saying they're up there with a model railway!!

[Mike140]

well, thats what they tell their friends, as it's cooler than saying they're up there with a model railway!!

Can't help but imagine an all-out raid and officers walking out with boxes stuffed with MK1 coaches... "It's pristine maroon, sir. The good Sh.."

[F-UnitMad]

Pot Farmers round my way don't bother with the loft. I recently redecorated a house for a Landlord, & there was a rather large hole about 4in dia. in a closet door, with another couple of similar holes in the closet ceiling, open to the loft space.

A visiting chippie, who came to quote for replacing the damaged door, told me the holes were a quick way to allow ventilation for the weed being grown in the room.

It also possibly explained why the last tennants seemed to have left in rather a hurry.

[LBRJ]

The police use  infra red cameras (attached to their chopper ) around here to see who has very warm roof spaces - So that is another thing to not do in ones loft!

[bgman]

The police use  infra red cameras (attached to their chopper ) around here to see who has very warm roof spaces - So that is another thing to not do in ones loft!

 

Just don't wire up all your loco fireboxes to the spare dcc wire, that'll take some explaining !