Derwent Spa

[Denbridge]

2 hours ago, imt said:

I just love your layout and HATE those coal bins - I would suggest they are misplaced. See the attached which is filched from:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/143092-coal-yard-coal-bins-and-such/&tab=comments#comment-3497256

 

I don't think that/have never personally seen coal bins up against a line for unloading - most unloading was done from wagon to lorry direct, and only stock between deliveries was kept to one side in bins.  Basically renting line space and wagons was more expensive that a bit of real estate in a goods yard.  Otherwise the coal was bagged for delivery and delivered.

 

 

SmallCoalMerchants-2.pdf 1.85 MB · 1 download

This is a subject that regularly surfaces. There are as many instances of coal bins up against a siding as there are of them being set away from the line.

[Les1952]

8 minutes ago, Denbridge said:

This is a subject that regularly surfaces. There are as many instances of coal bins up against a siding as there are of them being set away from the line.

 

There were plenty of instances of coal bins with their backs to a line- but NOT of them being unloaded from the wagon into the bin.  The wonderful "example" printed in Railway Modeller if examined closely shows that the line behind that row of bins goes to a cattle dock....

 

Firstly the wagon doors had to be able to drop completely down - any instances of a wagon door being dropped onto the platform of a lorry were strictly against regulations and could result in the merchant responsible losing his status as a customer of the railway.

 

Secondly the wagons were if at all possible unloaded straight onto the lorry and bagged at the time.  Coal merchants and their employees didn't like to shovel UPWARDS, so the coal bin was usually only used to store stuff they couldn't get away before the wagon had to go back.  If a wagon was kept too long it incurred demurrage charges. 

 

Finally, spillage from unloading was money so was shovelled up.  If it spills behind the coal bin it is difficult to get at and may also only accessible to railway (rather than merchant) employees.

 

The North Eastern had the right idea- bottom doored wagons dropping straight into a coal cell or into a lorry reversed into that cell, helped by Northern coal generally being a little harder and better able to withstand the fall.

 

Les

 

[Denbridge]

13 hours ago, Les1952 said:

 

There were plenty of instances of coal bins with their backs to a line- but NOT of them being unloaded from the wagon into the bin.  The wonderful "example" printed in Railway Modeller if examined closely shows that the line behind that row of bins goes to a cattle dock....

 

Firstly the wagon doors had to be able to drop completely down - any instances of a wagon door being dropped onto the platform of a lorry were strictly against regulations and could result in the merchant responsible losing his status as a customer of the railway.

 

Secondly the wagons were if at all possible unloaded straight onto the lorry and bagged at the time.  Coal merchants and their employees didn't like to shovel UPWARDS, so the coal bin was usually only used to store stuff they couldn't get away before the wagon had to go back.  If a wagon was kept too long it incurred demurrage charges. 

 

Finally, spillage from unloading was money so was shovelled up.  If it spills behind the coal bin it is difficult to get at and may also only accessible to railway (rather than merchant) employees.

 

The North Eastern had the right idea- bottom doored wagons dropping straight into a coal cell or into a lorry reversed into that cell, helped by Northern coal generally being a little harder and better able to withstand the fall.

 

Les

 

There is a prototype for everything. Pictures have been posted of wagon doors sitting on top of coal bins, with the wagon contents being transferred to said bins. Also of wagon doors being supported by props while coal is transferred to both bins and lorries.

[Les1952]

4 hours ago, Denbridge said:

There is a prototype for everything. Pictures have been posted of wagon doors sitting on top of coal bins, with the wagon contents being transferred to said bins. Also of wagon doors being supported by props while coal is transferred to both bins and lorries.

 

Still against regulations and the offenders for the high jump if caught.  However the further you get from the nearest inspectors or managers the more likely people were to cut corners.    My grandfather was a goods guard in the fifties and sixties, having previously been in charge of a small wayside station.   He remembered shunters being sacked  for propping wagon doors open.

 

Les

 

[Rowsley17D]

Back to some more modelling. Thanks for those who have contributed to the staithes debate.

 

I have manged to produce a small number of coaling tubs for the coaling hoist. I assume from photos it was a counter-weight design - one tub in the air, the other on the coaling stage floor. The tubs were made from Plastikard with plastic tubing cut very thinly for the wheels. A bit of a liberty was taken with how they were fixed to the chain but I'd reached the limit of my dexterity and eyesight.

 

Tubs in production.

 

 

In situ.

 

 

3709 being coaled

 

 

Edited July 24, 2019 by Rowsley17D

[Joseph_Pestell]

22 hours ago, Rowsley17D said:

I cannot find out where the staithes were at Buxton. They don't appear in any of the books I have. Nothing on the Midland Railway study Centre either. There's plenty of room for more and space for unloading onto the ground.

 

I will try to remember where I have seen those plans and photos.

[Rowsley17D]

No propped up side doors here! No doubt with middle managers about the all to nearby loco shed the regulations tended to be followed?

 

 

 

Sorry about the focus which the camera wanted on the lorry rather than the men.

[Rowsley17D]

I am giving the Dingham coupling system a go. Soft iron from an old file handle was inserted into a hole between the sleepers and a magnet from an old cupboard door catch was put on the bit below the baseboard.

 

 

 

 

The coupling is handed and consists a loop with soft iron wire attached to it on the wagon and a hook with a latch on the loco. As the wagon passes over the magnet the loop rises and lifts the latch.

 

The loop rises further and the latch fall back over the hook so preventing recoupling.

 

The wagons can be then propelled to any position on the siding.

 

And left there as the engine pulls away.

 

To recouple just back the engine onto the wagon. Simples?

 

 

 

Edited August 10, 2019 by Rowsley17D

[Rowsley17D]

Apart from fitting Dingham couplings to locos and each end of fixed rakes, I have started renumbering some locos to fit their surroundings. Most of the ones with Rowsley and Derby shed plates will keep them, but the first change was to the 3F (T) to a Buxton (Derwent in my world) number.

 

 

 

These shots have reminded me to blacken the coupling. 7107 was the second "Jinty" to arrive at Buxton (Midland MR shed 20.) Her 9D shed plate is just about visible. She is crossing over from the Up to the Down en route to Platform 2 to remove empty stock to the carriage siding and releasing the train engine.

Edited August 15, 2019 by Rowsley17D

[lezz01]

It's all looking very good Jonathan. I like the couplings they look easier to fit than Alex Jacksons that's for sure.

Regards Lez.

[Rowsley17D]

11 hours ago, lezz01 said:

It's all looking very good Jonathan. I like the couplings they look easier to fit than Alex Jacksons that's for sure.

Regards Lez.

 

They are easy to fit as they go in the existing coupling hook slot of the stock which may need elongating. Otherwise a 2mm hole is drilled and one of the coupling plates from the Dingham fret is used for the slot. They are reasonably tolerant in the height above rail level measurement too.

[Rowsley17D]

While at our working home away from the layout, I have been working on a passenger engine workings based on those from the summer of 1929 in J M Bentley's The Railway from Buxton (Scenes from the Past 7) with additional Manchester workings from the 1946 LMS summer timetable found on the website:

 

https://timetableworld.com 

 

There were typo errors in the TT so I have removed it until I can put them right.

 

Edited August 31, 2019 by Rowsley17D
Errors

[Rowsley17D]

Another loco renumbered. This was the NRM MR1000 renumbered to another of Derby's MR Compounds. My excuse for one running into Derwent is that it's on a running-in turn after heavy overhaul with the Derby-Derwent all-stations local. Here she is on the way to the turntable ready for the return home.

 

 

 

 

 

[chuffinghell]

Very nice! I often think I should have modelled LMS as there is a larger variety of locos available

[Rowsley17D]

Not much done to the actual layout recently, but I have repainted red and renumbered a black Bachmann LMS Compound.  934 was the last built at the Vulcan Foundry  and was the last Compound to remain red at nationalisation. HMRS have been used. Their yellow is very pale.

 

The difference in yellows is plain to see.

 

Two sisters awaiting the off. My excuse, if needed, for running Compounds is there're on running-in turns after overhaul at Derby. 

 

 

MR and LMS Compounds side by side. Do I polish the smokebox hinges? And no, I am not going to line the buffer-beam.

[Alister_G]

That's a lovely job Jonathan, it looks great.

 

Al.

[Tortuga]

Are Dinghams handed? Also do they avoid the “Spratt and Winkle shuffle”?

[lezz01]

Very nice Jonathan.

Regards Lez.

[Buhar]

10 hours ago, Tortuga said:

Are Dinghams handed? Also do they avoid the “Spratt and Winkle shuffle”?

They are handed but shuffling isn't required. Fixed magnets are OK but I think electro ones are better. 

Alan 

[Rowsley17D]

10 hours ago, Tortuga said:

Are Dinghams handed? Also do they avoid the “Spratt and Winkle shuffle”?

 

Hello Tortuga

 

Dinghams are handed and avoid the usual shuffle with some auto couplings. Here's how they work:

 

http://www.dingham.co.uk/how_it_works4.htm

 

 

[Tortuga]

Thanks guys. They look and sound really neat. How intrusive are the loops, visually?

[Regularity]

26 minutes ago, Tortuga said:

Thanks guys. They look and sound really neat. How intrusive are the loops, visually?

That’s going to be a very subjective opinion. It will also depend on whether the couplings are chemically blackened.

 But from higher up the page, what do you think?

[Tortuga]

Irritatingly on the wagon, they are kind of intrusive; I wondered how intrusive they are on locos

[Rowsley17D]

The photo regularity has reproduced was to show how the couplings work, they have been chemically blackened since. 

 

My locos only have the latched hook, tank locos at both ends. The coach rakes have a hook loop at both ends. I can turn engines at both ends of the layout. Guards vans also have a loop at both ends and are joined to fixed rakes of goods vehicles with a wagon which has latched hooks at both ends. Sounds a bit complicated but it works for me.

 

Loco and coach.

 

 

Closer.

 

 

Viewing distance.

 

 

Wagons.

 

 

 

 

[Tortuga]

Thanks @Rowsley17D!

The blackening definitely makes those loops less visible and I like the idea of latched hooks only on Locos.

Although my layout does not allow for turning, I might be able to adapt your method to my needs...