Laser cuttable plastic?

[Skinnylinny]

Hi all.

I've been playing around with a laser cutter in my local hackspace (a lovely 40W CO₂ laser cutter) and have been using it to cut parts for 4mm scale coaches (namely beading and panelling) out of card. Example below:



However, longer sections of beading, being long and thin, have a nasty habit of warping irretrievably from the moisture in PVA glue. I therefore would like to get hold of some nice, thin, laserable plastic. Ideally, I would like something of about 10 thou (0.25mm). Has anyone had any luck getting thin laser-cuttable plastic? Most places I can find only seem to go down to either 1mm or perhaps 1/32" (0.8mm) which are really far too thick for my purposes.

Thanks in advance,

[Giles]

Trotec certainly do 0.5mm

[Branwell]

Evergreen do 15 cm by 30 cm sheets in 0.13 mm (ref 9009), 0.25 mm (ref 9010) and 0.38 mm (ref 9011); 28 cm by 35 cm sheets in 0.25 mm (ref 9210) and 0.38 mm (ref 9215); and 30 cm by 60 cm sheets in 0.13 mm (ref 19009), 0.25 mm (ref 19010) and 0.38 mm (ref 19015), as well as 0.5 mm sheets in all three sizes (ref 9020, 9220 and 19020).

 

It can be a bit difficult to source the larger sheets in the UK though.

[Giles]

Is the Evergreen laser grade, or is it Plasticard, which of course is highly toxic to cut?

[unravelled]

I've cut plasticard on my laser cutter, but it doesn't cut very well, and there's a lot of melting and distortion. This can be reduced by fiddling with cutting speed and power, but I've never been able to do it as well as I wanted. I hadn't thought that it was particularly toxic, unlike PVC which is a definite no.

 

The material often mentioned, and used by commercial cutters is Rowmark. Unfortunately I've never found a suitable supplier for small quantities. Rowmark doesn't appear to glue well with the gentler solvents, needing something quite aggressive.

 

Btw for glazing I've sometimes used 0.5mm acrylic, which cuts well and is nice and rigid, if a bit brittle.

 

Dave

[Fen End Pit]

I've cut plasticard on my laser cutter, but it doesn't cut very well, and there's a lot of melting and distortion. This can be reduced by fiddling with cutting speed and power, but I've never been able to do it as well as I wanted. I hadn't thought that it was particularly toxic, unlike PVC which is a definite no.

 

The material often mentioned, and used by commercial cutters is Rowmark. Unfortunately I've never found a suitable supplier for small quantities. Rowmark doesn't appear to glue well with the gentler solvents, needing something quite aggressive.

 

Btw for glazing I've sometimes used 0.5mm acrylic, which cuts well and is nice and rigid, if a bit brittle.

 

Dave

I'm one of the laser cutter 'owners and trainers' in our local hack space. Cutting plasticard with a laser is very dangerous. The burning plasticard gives of Chlorine and breathing that in is not a good idea.

I've used an ABS Acrylic mix sold by HPC laser which cuts quite well as an alternative.

 

David

firmly band in our local hackspace

[unravelled]

Perhaps plasticard is too generic a name. I was referring to  polystyrene sheet and HIPS, both of which a quick search  suggest are sold as OK for lasercutting, (though they don't easily produce good results). I wouldn't consider cutting PVC which does give off chlorine/hydrochloric acid. If this is being sold as "plastic card" it's introducing a dangerous confusion.

 

Dave

[MikeTrice]

Although not a direct answer the following post explains how I built the Diagram 3D laser cut coach kits, pre-treating the card to allow PVA gluing: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/100542-diagram3d-gnr-4-comp-3rd-class-brake-dia-281/

 

You might also like to investigate using Oiled Board (available from Hobbycraft and other art shops) which apparently laser cuts well and is far more stable when wet. I put an offcut in a tub of water then forgot about it for a couple of days. Took it out and it was still perfect. JCL is experimenting with it (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/63508-wainfleet-and-havenhouse/page-61&do=findComment&comment=2980322)

[monkeysarefun]

Perhaps plasticard is too generic a name. I was referring to  polystyrene sheet and HIPS, both of which a quick search  suggest are sold as OK for lasercutting, (though they don't easily produce good results). I wouldn't consider cutting PVC which does give off chlorine/hydrochloric acid. If this is being sold as "plastic card" it's introducing a dangerous confusion.

 

Dave

 

 

I've tried HIPS with my Emblaser, it tends to melt under the laser and then either  bubble and  buckle and contract or else reseals itself after the laser has passed. 

 

Plastic companies produce laser friendly plastics, usually intended for sign-writing etc. Down here in Oz it is pretty hard to find at a reasonable price and is usually white on one side and black/red/blue etc on the other..

 

Laser manufactures such as Trotec do produce laser friendly products but down here at least, it is very cheap. No, thats wrong, I meant expensive.

[brigo]

Haven't used it myself, but York Modelmaking suggest using Mylar sheet for coach overlays, see page 2

 

http://www.yorkmodelrail.com/community/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Laser-Cutting-information-sheet.pdf

 

Appears to be readily available in various thicknesses

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mylar-Sheets-10-190-Micron/dp/B00LI31J7Q

 

Brian

[Skinnylinny]

Thanks to everyone for the replies. I've been in communication with York Modelmaking, but it looks like the laser cuttable plastic they use is horrendously expensive. For 0.8mm, 1mm and 1.5mm thick plastic I was looking at £8 - £8.50 per A4 sheet, while the 0.5mm would be £13.80 a sheet!

Their Mylar is affordable enough, but the stuff seems to be available cheaper elsewhere once postage is taken into account.

 

Trotec certainly do 0.5mm

Trotec seem to do a bewildering array of different laserable materials, and I can't seem to find the thin stuff in any of their ranges, most of which seem aimed at engraving for signs (i.e. they come up a different colour where engraved). Could you tell me what range they produce thin plastics in please? Is the 0.5mm material they produce flexible (or at least, bendable with a little heat)? I'm trying to produce coach sides, so I need to form the curve of a turnunder at the bottom of the coach sides.

 

The material often mentioned, and used by commercial cutters is Rowmark. Unfortunately I've never found a suitable supplier for small quantities. Rowmark doesn't appear to glue well with the gentler solvents, needing something quite aggressive.

I'm much like yourself in this case - I can't seem to get hold of Rowmark in hobbyist quantities. Anyone with a suitable supplier, please speak up!

[JCL]

 

I know you're talking about plastic, but if you get a chance, I would recommend at least playing with the oiled board as Mike said. I'm v impressed with it. It's .45mm thick. Takes tacky glue and easy to paint if you use spray undercoat.

 

Top is a gate in 4mm scale, verticals are approx .5mm, bottom is a Barnum coach side double laminated. The structure of the coach is 1mm Mdf.

 

For Rowmark, call the distributor/manufacturer and they may be able to put you in touch with someone local that buys from them in commercial quantities and is happy to resell. They did this for me, although I haven't had a chance of following up with them.

 

Edited March 15, 2018 by JCL

[Pete the Elaner]

Perhaps plasticard is too generic a name. I was referring to  polystyrene sheet and HIPS, both of which a quick search  suggest are sold as OK for lasercutting,

Polystyrene is what we usually refer to as Plastikard & is widely regarded as dangerous to lasercut, so I don't know where you saw it marked as ok for doing so.

 

I have found Acrylic down to 1mm, but thicknesses below 3mm get more expensive the thinner you go.

I have tried some 20 thou polypropylene, which is apparently suitable for the laser. This warped quite badly with the heat.

[unravelled]

From a random googled lasercutting company (pololu):

Materials we can laser cut

We can cut the following materials. If you do not see your material listed, we would be happy to try cutting it as long as it does not contain chlorine (please submit a quote request and provide details about your material in the special instructions section of the quote request form).

• Plastics:
  • ABS (acrylonitrile butadiene styrene)
  • Acrylic (also known as Plexiglas, Lucite, PMMA)
  • Delrin (POM, acetal) – for a supplier, try McMaster-Carr.
  • High density polyethylene (HDPE) – melts badly
  • Kapton tape (Polyimide)
  • Mylar (polyester)
  • Nylon – melts badly
  • PETG (polyethylene terephthalate glycol)
  • Polyethylene (PE) – melts badly
  • Polypropylene (PP) – melts somewhat
  • Styrene
  • Two-tone acrylic – top color different than core material, usually for custom instrumentation panels, signs, and plaques.

• We do not or cannot cut the following materials:

• Most metals – We cannot cut most metals. The two exceptions are thin sheets of stainless or spring steel (up to 0.060" thick). We also stock an acrylic-based, dual-tone plastic with a faux-metal finish on one side. If you need thicker metal parts, you might consider a water jet cutting service.
• Polycarbonate (PC, Lexan) – we stopped cutting Lexan due to the fumes.
• Any material containing chlorine
• PVC (Cintra) – contains chlorine
• Vinyl – contains chlorine
• Glass – we can engrave glass, but we cannot cut it.
• Fiberglass
• Printed circuit board (FR4 and other material types)
• Carbon fiber
• High-density polyethylene (HDPE) thicker than 1/16" – We are unable to cut HDPE thicker than 1/16", and HDPE of any thickness melts badly when laser cut.

 

From ULS:

 

Polystyrene

Polystyrene Overview

Polystyrene, also known as PS or styrene, is a thermoplastic and is part of the vinyl polymer family. Laser processing of polystyrene can be performed with a 10.6 or 9.3 micron CO₂ laser. Laser cutting of polystyrene can be performed with a 9.3 or 10.6 micron CO₂ laser, resulting a clean, smooth, slightly melted cut edge, free of discoloration. Laser engraving of polystyrene can be performed with a 9.3 or 10.6 micron CO₂ laser and results in depth with a smooth slightly melted surface. Laser marking of polystyrene with a CO₂ laser is not recommended as a contrasting mark is not created. The 1.06 micron fiber laser wavelength is not readily absorbed by polystyrene and is not recommended for use with this material.

Applicable Laser Processes for Polystyrene

Laser Cutting
Laser Engraving

 

I'd be interested in a quote stating the dangers?

 

Thanks

 

Dave

 

 

[Andy Hayter]

Polystyrene is made from styrene monomer.  It contains no chlorine, so the comment some 10 posts earlier suggesting that it does is completely wrong.

 

On heating, polystyrene will depolymerise (it reverts back to its original feedstock) and will (most likely) release some styrene into the atmosphere.  In an unventilated workspace this is likely to be hazardous to health.

 

From the MSDS for styrene monomer

 

Section 3: Hazards Identification
Potential Acute Health Effects: Very hazardous in case of eye contact (irritant). Hazardous in case of skin contact (irritant, permeator), of ingestion, of inhalation. Inflammation of the eye is characterized by redness, watering, and itching.
Potential Chronic Health Effects: CARCINOGENIC EFFECTS: Classified + (PROVEN) by OSHA. Classified 2B (Possible for human.) by IARC. A4 (Not classifiable for human or animal.) by ACGIH. MUTAGENIC EFFECTS: Not available. TERATOGENIC EFFECTS: Not available. DEVELOPMENTAL TOXICITY: Not available. The substance is toxic to the nervous system, upper respiratory tract. Repeated or prolonged exposure to the substance can produce target organs damage.
 

 

This, in a professional and well set up workspace, will make the hazards sound much worse than they are in that environment, but in an amateur workshop you would be wise to take notice.

 

 

Edit to add:  it is quite likely that the laser power ranges quoted above are indeed part of that well set up professional workshop.  If yours is outside of that range expect more than just warped pieces.

Edited March 15, 2018 by Andy Hayter

[etendam]

 

I'm much like yourself in this case - I can't seem to get hold of Rowmark in hobbyist quantities. Anyone with a suitable supplier, please speak up!

Rowmark in small quantities can be obtained https://www.signseen.nl/laser-graveer-platen/rowmark-graveerplaten-lasermax.html

This Dutch company offers laser engravable 610 x 1238mm sheets from just € 37,50 + VAT + Shipping. they can be cut in 4 parts to make shipping possible.

Available thickness  0.8, 1.6, or 3.2 mm

 

They only deliver to companies and not to private persons! Minimum Order quantity for the total order € 200 ex VAT.

 

Ed

Edited March 28, 2018 by etendam

[Dccbobg]

I have used Mylar successfully on my 35W HPC CO2 laser for fine detail. Bought from supplier who sells it for airbrush stencils. Varying thicknesses. For the finest detail, and to help stop it melting into a rounded edge, try cutting on low power and doing several (2 or 3) passes. Not home at present but will try to post a photo of example next week.

Bob

PS. I have just done a search on Amazon.co.uk for ‘mylar sheet’ and there are loads of options to buy, both thickness and quantity.

Edited April 10, 2018 by Dccbobg

[Skinnylinny]

Rowmark in small quantities can be obtained https://www.signseen.nl/laser-graveer-platen/rowmark-graveerplaten-lasermax.html

This Dutch company offers laser engravable 610 x 1238mm sheets from just € 37,50 + VAT + Shipping. they can be cut in 4 parts to make shipping possible.

Available thickness  0.8, 1.6, or 3.2 mm

 

They only deliver to companies and not to private persons! Minimum Order quantity for the total order € 200 ex VAT.

 

Ed

 

Thanks, Ed. Unfortunately I was looking for somewhere I could buy maybe 1 or 2 A4 sheets to experiment with, so that's a little outside my budget! Add to that being a private individual, and that will make it rather hard to buy from that company. Thank you for the advice though.

 

I have used Mylar successfully on my 35W HPC CO2 laser for fine detail. Bought from supplier who sells it for airbrush stencils. Varying thicknesses. For the finest detail, and to help stop it melting into a rounded edge, try cutting on low power and doing several (2 or 3) passes. Not home at present but will try to post a photo of example next week.

Bob

PS. I have just done a search on Amazon.co.uk for ‘mylar sheet’ and there are loads of options to buy, both thickness and quantity.

Now that is interesting, thank you! May I ask how you stick Mylar to other surfaces? The trick of multiple passes at low power is also a useful one, thank you. I'll have to have a look into getting some Mylar. Incidentally, the laser cutter I have access to is an HPC one and I'm very impressed with how fine it'll work. Using thin card I've managed to get roughly 0.3mm beading for some 4mm scale coaches, as shown on the end of the coach here:

 

 

 

Ideally, I'd like to be able to replicate this with plastic, as the card pieces are extremely delicate and break if you so much as breathe on them wrong, until fully assembled...

[JohnGi]

May I ask how you stick Mylar to other surfaces? 

 

Hi, I recently came across your other thread and found it very interesting.

 

According to http://yorkmodelrail.com/community/docs/Laser-Cutting-Information-sheet2014.pdf

 

Mylar is a plastic stencil material, opaque in appearance, available in 75, 125, 190, 250, 350 and 500 microns (0.075 – 0.5mm) Very fine detail can be cut in all but the thickest sheets, so is ideal for small scale detailing and overlays for coach sides etc. It is not affected by solvents so needs to be glued with Spray adhesive such as 3M Craft Mount or superglue. (Bostic, UHU or Humbrol Polystyrene Cement (tube) will glue it to itself or other plastics) When used for coach overlays onto Rowmark, flooding the piece with Butanone will adhere the two layers together. We can also apply “double sided” adhesive tape to the back before cutting.

 

I have some mylar so I could try an experiment tomorrow.

[Skinnylinny]

Oooh, that'd be handy to know - please let me know how your experiment goes!

 did look into acquiring Rowmark from York Modelmaking, but again, price is a bit of a barrier - £8 an A4 sheet for 0.8mm and £13.80 (!) per A4 sheet of 0.5mm Rowmark. On the other hand, the note that it can be glued with Spray Mount is interesting... I think Mylar would appear to be what I need for the beading on my coaches, just need to find a suitable material for the main body now!

[JohnGi]

let me know how your experiment goes!

 

 

Hi again,

 

Trying out York Model Making's suggestion that mylar coach sides can be attached to rowmark by flooding with butanone. I have butanone and mylar, but no rowmark so I used ordinary plasticard (polystyrene).

 

I had a piece of 0.15mm mylar in stock.

 

I cut out a 10mm square of mylar, and another 10mm "window frame" with an 8mm opening, so the edges of the window frame were 1mm wide. 

 

I then painted enough butanone unto the polystyrene so that it was all wet, and set the mylar on top. After a while it appeared to be attached, but you could see a dark patch in the middle of the mylar square which I suspected to be unevaporated butanone. I left it for 24 hours and the dark patch had almost disappeared.

 

I was then setting up to take a photograph when all the mylar fell off the plasticard! 

 

Perhaps I didn't use enough butanone.

 

Looking back through the thread there have been a lot of other suggestions.

 

Earlier poster had found acrylic down to 1mm, and observes that thinner sheets (below 3mm get more expensive).

 

"Precision" acrylic sheet is available down to 0.3mm. Swiss manufacturer, trade name Hesaglass.  One UK supplier is http://www.peerless-coatings.co.uk. Don't know about MOQ and prices. Also modulor in Germany http://www.modulor.de/en/precision-acrylic-glass-transparent-colourless.html, 5.60 euros for a 180x330x0.5 mm sheet. 0.3mm also available but more expensive. Acrylic laser cuts well and can be solvent glued by acetone.

 

John

Edited April 15, 2018 by JohnGi

[etendam]

If you are still sourcing for a supplier that delivers laser cuttable sheets in 0,5 mm (In 1245 x 610 mm sheets - that can be cut 12 A4 sheets) to private users....

https://www.graveermaterialen.nl/trolase-thins-115827.html

 

They sell 1 sheet for € 46 (that is € 4 a sheet) + shipping.

I am sure the UK seller will deliver the same sheets about the same price

 

https://www.engraving-supplies.co.uk/lasermaterials/engraving-plastic/trolase-thins.html

 

Ed

Edited October 8, 2018 by etendam

[Rambler]

According to the 4D Model Shop website, their ABS sheet (which is available in 0.25mm) can be laser cut. See

http://modelshop.co.uk/Shop/Raw-Materials/Plastics/Coloured/Item/ABS-sheet-175-307mm/ITM6961

 

Among my many plans, I was hoping to produce O gauge wagon bodies in laser cut material, using 0.25mm for the strapping. It doesn’t look as though anyone has tried this - maybe they did and it didn’t work well...

 

Eric

Edited October 14, 2018 by Rambler

[Skinnylinny]

So from what I can gather, ABS doesn't vaporise like acrylic under laser cutting, it partly melts and partly vaporises. However, ABS in a laser cutter will decompose to produce (among other chemicals) hydrogen cyanide (better known simply as "cyanide") so it's one to avoid unless you 1) really know what you're doing and 2) have exceptionally good fume extraction.

 

I will check with 4D models, but until I have confirmation in writing from them, I won't be putting it near my cutter, which is a pity, because that would otherwise be *exactly* what I want!