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New Roco Z21 app


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Please reduce the confrontational aspects to this topic. Just kiss and make up a bit - 08 May

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Ok it appears after using continuity tester the frogs are still dead.  Didn't realise.

 

Moving the logic 1s n 0s hasn't solved it as the blades move unwantingly so reverted it.

Hmm,  unsure what the fix is.

 

I've wired the frog wire to the opposite motor like I did on the older DC layout so wired the DCC Smails same as the older Tortoises minus the physical switch.  Pins 1 & 8 to track, 2&7 joined and to frogs.

 

This has worked on single point but seems not the slips.  Have added pic of wiring for single point as access is easier although slips are same.  Plus added pic of current slip logic.20200506_144829.jpg.21d0d7a326fdf4de836788f192fda309.jpg

 

Screenshot_20200506-144318_Z21.jpg.ed5ec2e4ddb9ff481251dec74d5da5b8.jpg

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1 hour ago, Knuckles said:

 

There is another issue however, one I anticipated.  As I'm using Peco Code 75 Live Frog H0 Double Slips....out of the two chipped loco's the Pacific is shorting out around the frogs, no doubt where the two insulating breaks are for the closure rails.  I'll be replacing them with Bullhead ones at the earliest opportunity once Peco release them but for now gotta get this sorted before can move on.

 

The issue might be at the frog where the plastic bits are so that might need tweaking instead.

 

Now I usually modify my points to be 'DCC Friendly' or electrically operate like hand built points.  I've hand built P4 points before and a single slip and got them working fine so I'm not a complete n00b here, however I doubt bonding the closure rails to the stock rails will do the trick here.

 

If I increase the insulation where I've circled would that sort it?  I believe so but if not please advise me, if so I'll likely cut into the metal next to the plastic to keep the Wing rails further apart then if it's dead bond closures to the stocks.  Either way what ye think is best?  The DMU goes across it slowly with no bother 8 or 9 out of 10 times but the pacific is useless unless it is in rocket mode.

 

 

ds.jpg.de323ed57783409ae938bf23554685cf.jpg

 

 

 

 

Whoa -Stop..

There should not be a short there as all the rails should be the same polarity.

That's what the frog switching is for, that frog should be switched by the RH motor, likewise the RH frog is switched by the LH motor.

I've got 4 double slip code 75 electrofrog and they all work perfectly if wired up correctly, no shorts on the frogs

Edited by melmerby
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Ya I don't think there is a short anymore.  The frogs are dead it seems.

 

Continuity tester when touched to either stock rail and a frog shows nothing happening.

 

So trying to figure why now.

 

The frog droppers are joined to the frogs, tested that continuity and all fine.

 

Dunno.

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I thought that initially but after getting the continuity tester out, touching the frog to either stock or closure rail has no continuity...so the frogs seem dead,

 

 

I did try n move the logic settings but that just seemed to move the point blades which I didn't want so reverted them...UNLESS......they all need to be swapped around 100% so mechanically they still go where we want but then the frogs have the opposite state (I.E power), then maybe that is what is needed.  I'm unsure currently if that is what it is or if it's a wiring issue.

 

 

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Didn't work.

 

FFS.  Frogs seem dead still.  Tried touching frog under board to either black or red as well as over on tracks and no biscuit.  

 

Any ideas?

 

I've showed ye how they were wired.  Worked on single points and single slip on a P4 layout with Tortoises no bother.

 

This is no fun, just angering the 5hit out of me.

 

Edited by Knuckles
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Calm down.

I get the impression that the red mist is clouding logical thinking.

Back off, slow down and try and think it through methodically.

 

You said one train went through OK but another tripped the dcc system.

But surely if the frog is dead, so are the rails leading to the plain track that follows, so the train should stop, not trip the system.

 

I assume you have got insulated track joiners to the next bits of track - I insulate all 4 rails each end for safety.

Then there are 4 connections (only) to the double slip, 2 to the stock rails and the 2 frogs.

Is that how you have wired them?

 

 

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Didn't trip the system, loco just stops on frogs unless you go fast and the other loco will glide through slowly rarely stopping.  Continuity tester has nothing when you touch frog to any other rail or wire below board.

 

Instead of insulating fishplates on the frogs there are just 1mm gaps so DS can easily be lifted later for Bullhead.

 

DS has 4 connections.  A black to 1 stock rail and a red to the other stock rail.

 

A frog joined to opposite point motor and same for the other frog n motor.

 

The Smail wiring I don't think is wrong as it worked before on Tortoises.  I know there are multiple ways of wiring frogs but this has always worked.

 

Frogs are dead, they don't make the continuity meter move when joined to another rail.  

Edited by Knuckles
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1 hour ago, Knuckles said:

Ok it appears after using continuity tester the frogs are still dead.  Didn't realise.

 

Moving the logic 1s n 0s hasn't solved it as the blades move unwantingly so reverted it.

Hmm,  unsure what the fix is.

 

I've wired the frog wire to the opposite motor like I did on the older DC layout so wired the DCC Smails same as the older Tortoises minus the physical switch.  Pins 1 & 8 to track, 2&7 joined and to frogs.

 

This has worked on single point but seems not the slips.  Have added pic of wiring for single point as access is easier although slips are same.  Plus added pic of current slip logic.20200506_144829.jpg.21d0d7a326fdf4de836788f192fda309.jpg

 

Screenshot_20200506-144318_Z21.jpg.ed5ec2e4ddb9ff481251dec74d5da5b8.jpg

 

Hi,

 

The reason this doesn't work is because the wiring is incorrect, it probably 'works' on the single points because blade contact is switching the polarity.

 

First there are two internal independent switches in the Smail, pin 2 and pin 7 are 2 contact pins on separate switches and should NOT be wired to the frog.

The frog should be wired to either pin 4 or 5 but NOT both.

If you wire to pin 4 then the track bus should be wired to pins 2 & 3 (you'll need to use your multimeter to figure out which rail goes to which switch contact)

If you wire to pin 5 then the track bus goes to pins 6 & 7.

This is the same on Tortoise motors, which I use on my layout.

 

Regards,

 

John P

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18 minutes ago, Knuckles said:

Didn't trip the system, loco just stops on frogs unless you go fast and the other loco will glide through slowly rarely stopping.  Continuity tester has nothing when you touch frog to any other rail or wire below board.

 

Instead of insulating fishplates on the frogs there are just 1mm gaps so DS can easily be lifted later for Bullhead.

 

DS has 4 connections.  A black to 1 stock rail and a red to the other stock rail.

 

A frog joined to opposite point motor and same for the other frog n motor.

 

The Smail wiring I don't think is wrong as it worked before on Tortoises.  I know there are multiple ways of wiring frogs but this has always worked.

 

Frogs are dead, they don't make the continuity meter move when joined to another rail.  

A really basic question or two

How are the switches on the Smail wired?

Have you got separate track power to them as well as the internal logic?

I don't understand the photo of the connector shown earlier:

image.png.7ead7354ea35186486c82792c6baa403.png

Edited by melmerby
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These single points have their stock rails n closure rails wired together so it isn't blade contact that switches frogs.

 

It might be on the H0 DS though, unsure off my head.

 

So for example, for Smails are you saying wire a red track  to pin 2, the black track to pin 3 and the frog to pin 4?

 

Also if I do that does pin 1 and 2 need to be wired together and pin 3 and 8 wired together?   I ask as pins 1 and 8 need power to move.

 

 

Note:  the red n black wires to the Smail are joined to the same bus as joined to the same track.

Edited by Knuckles
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8 minutes ago, Knuckles said:

These single points have their stock rails n closure rails wired together so it isn't blade contact that switches frogs.

 

It might be on the H0 DS though, unsure off my head.

 

So for example, for Smails are you saying wire a red track  to pin 2, the black track to pin 3 and the frog to pin 4?

Yes

Each switch needs a connection from both track feeds so that it can switch between one and the other. Which way round they are will determine which rail it is connected to in each position - be prepared to reverse them if it switches the wrong way.

Edited by melmerby
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So does 1 need to be joined to 2 and 3 to 8?

 

And if its backwards join 1 to 3 and 2 to 8 instead.

 

1 and 8 to my knowledge (lol!) need power to move the points physically.

Edited by Knuckles
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13 minutes ago, Knuckles said:

So does 1 need to be joined to 2 and 3 to 8?

 

And if its backwards join 1 to 3 and 2 to 8 instead.

 

1 and 8 to my knowledge (lol!) need power to move the points physically.

 

Yes, that's exactly right.

You might want to test which pin to use ( 2 or 3) with a multimeter before you do any wiring.

 

Regards,

 

John P

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Worked!

 

Many thanks for all the help.   Will do a shout out in the vid concerning the whole ordeal.

 

Rather than feeling all fuzzy I'm just relieved it's out the way.

 

The pacific still stalls there a fair bit but  I've put that down to the slip not being 100% flat and the loco requiring more pick ups ideally, only has them on the drivers.  can sort that later.

 

But the slip logic, movement and electrics all seem to be working at last.  Wiring looks a dogs dinner but it works now so not touching unless have to.  Logic included also.

 

Beer time.

 

 

Screenshot_20200506-192555_Z21.jpg.42c02a9fe427ccf31ca810d05dbafca1.jpg

20200506_192517.jpg.b86b3bf099e278939deadc79867ed18a.jpg

20200506_192511.jpg.58374adf1f2d4d2acc2c554b7c9c6e6e.jpg

 

EDIT:  Thought I'd do a neater version partially hand drawn.

 

1st pic is the wiring I was using before minus the physical toggle switches and that I was adding power from 1 & 8.

Next after that is what I've done and last picture is the alternate.

As I understand it red n black may need switching too but either way, hopefully it'll help some one. 

Took me 3 days to install 2 motors!  Bad init!

 

179552527_TortoiseWiring1.png.eb877a98d9f6981e9ae86f5d4811e4cd.png

 

553904696_TortoiseWiring2.jpg.2a09806b94c2f7d7933d4e1164f07db8.jpg

 

57139765_TortoiseWiring3.jpg.d83aa8d20cf72d8795101a9d20422b53.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Knuckles
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Since the DS fiasco I've rewired the original point so the frog tip works ok and also wired two more standard points with the Smails and they are ok too.  The Pacific stalls n sometimes trips system due to those insulators being too close together - nice one Peco.  So it's the nail varnish or cutter and solder bodge.

 

The tandem I've added 2 motors to and joined the 2 frog wires like instructions say, ran an engine through it slowly and no shorts so seems correct polarity.  Programed one of the motors fine, the other......it's ignorant.

 

(Programming on 2 standard point icons 1st then will go to tandem icon after, like DS workaround.)

 

Issue: The programming light often goes out and even when it doesn't pressing the green point icon is like prodding a bored bear.  The icon moves but the motor rarely fires.  It'll eventually do the registration wiggle then after that it goes back to sleep.  Too much honey.

 

Any ideas here?  :-/

 

Edited by Knuckles
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8 minutes ago, Knuckles said:

  The Pacific stalls n sonetimes trips system due to those insulators being too close together - nice one Peco. 

 

You always jump in and claim something is faulty!

Ever thought it might be something you are doing?:scratchhead:

I have more than 70 locos of various types and makes and 6 (I counted it's not 4) code 75 electrofrog double slips

Not one loco ever stalls or shorts when negotiating those points.

Doesn't that tell you something?:jester:

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No.

 

It's a known fact some loco's don't like the new Peco Unifrog Bullhead turnouts and the older electrofrog DS as the back of the flanges on fat wheels can bridge the gap between the closure rails.  Anticipated the possibility before I brought them due to research.  (Edit: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/140920-Hornby-locos-shorting-on-points/ )

 

It's only some locos.  Can fix it.

 

Any idea on the Smail issue?

Edited by Knuckles
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If I'm pressing the green point on the Z21 app and the point motor isn't firing every time then the Z21 app is part of the puzzle.

 

Unless the issue is with the motor or wiring (unsure yet) then I don't see how this isn't contextually tied to the app as a subject.  The Z21 has to communicate with the Smail.

 

If I went to or started a Smail thread and explained the same problem I'd get someone say the same thing but backwards, that I should ask it in the Z21 thread instead.  

 

Edit:   Have made a Circuitron Smail thread anyway, just seem pointless when for several days we've been talking about the Z21 app' and Smails in conjunction the whole time.

Edited by Knuckles
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The z/Z21 app hasn't yet demonstrated a single fault related to you issues and all your problems have been with your wiring and the use of the Smails. Similarly the issue of a loco stalling when going over a frog has nothing to do with the z/Z21 app, hence asking you to place your question in the right places is suggested.

 

You will benefit because most people ignore a thread on z/Z21 app as they don't use it, whereas they may use Peco rails and tunouts, Smails or even wire up their layouts.

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This latest issue I don't yet know what the fault is whether it is a duff Smail, wiring or a communication issue with Z21.

 

I haven't once said the Z21 app has a fault, although other people have several times if you go back and read through. 

 

You yourself mentioned the DS workaround of single points for programming.  This likely isn't an app fault but could have been designed better to not have to need a work around.

 

As for the shirt circuit being a sin to mention.  I mentioned it with two sentences out of ten in that post - not a big deal, and it wasn't a question.  

 

I also mentioned it above as a reply to Melmerby, also not a question.

 

I'm well within Z21 conversational context. 

 

I'm greatfull for the help you've gave me thus far but this speech control nonsense is fruitless. 

 

I wouldn't mind if your argument had a tight consistent logic yet all I'm seeing is a colander.

 

The Circuitron Smail thread has been created anyway.

 

 

Edited by Knuckles
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Feel free to keep posting your issues in the z/Z21 app thread but be equally prepared not get resolutions to your issues as they are nothing to do with the app - as I said, all you gripes and complaints about the app not doing x or y have all been down to issues external to the app and the app has performed correctly.

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