New Roco Z21 app

[WIMorrison]

Paul,

 

I suspect that the old app will have issues with the new Z21 firmware due to the new functionality introduced with the update?

 

 

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, WIMorrison said:

Paul,

 

I suspect that the old app will have issues with the new Z21 firmware due to the new functionality introduced with the update?

 

 

There was a recent Multimaus update as well

If you hold down the shift key whilst operating the speed control you can change the direction the loco is "facing" without it actually moving.

Useful for changing the running lights on diesel & electric locos when they are to reverse but before moving off.

[PaulRhB]

2 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

Paul,

 

I suspect that the old app will have issues with the new Z21 firmware due to the new functionality introduced with the update?

 

 

The thing is I haven’t updated the firmware since it worked, the only thing different was the last update for the old app so it must be an app glitch. There’s been another since but I haven’t had it out since then to see if it’s sorted. 
I didn’t really worry as I have several ‘Mice’ but it’s nice to know the phone works too  

 

Edited April 17, 2021 by PaulRhB

[Greensman]

Just a quick question - we currently have a problem with our club set-up where, adding an android pad is causing the system to lock up with a 'no connection' error message ( <II>) on the wifi Maus.

The only way to clear the problem is to shutdown all the controllers, pad, z21 and router.

Has anybody else experienced this

[WIMorrison]

I am not sure if the z21 has a limit on the number of connections - how many phones/tablets/maus are you connecting?

 

might be worth looking up on Roco to see if there is a limit 

[Riddles]

If you check out https://www.z21.eu/en/faqs-support/questions-answers  you will find that the limit of smartphones or tablets which can be connected is 10.  In addition, 31 other devices can be connected with the X-BUS. I can't tell whether this number is reduced if another device is connected by the Sniffer port.

[WIMorrison]

Roco do not specify a limit for wireless devices connecting to the z/Z21, but there is a network limit (defined by the subnet mask) , however Roco do say that 10 devices should work without issue.

 

The more devices that you have on a wireless network, the worse the performance, and you can expect to have issues if you have numerous devices. 

[DaveArkley]

On 02/12/2021 at 22:28, WIMorrison said:

Roco do not specify a limit for wireless devices connecting to the z/Z21, but there is a network limit (defined by the subnet mask) , however Roco do say that 10 devices should work without issue.

 

The more devices that you have on a wireless network, the worse the performance, and you can expect to have issues if you have numerous devices. 

Pedant mode on

 

The Z21 (black) and z21 (white) do have a hard limit on the number of wireless connections, it is exactly zero on both. The Z21 (or z21) are not wireless capable boxes, as far as IP traffic is concerned both have exactly one Ethernet port (marked LAN) which is a wired connection.

 

Most people will directly connect that Ethernet port to the supplied wireless router for a Z21. But it could be connected to any other network devices (switches, hubs, routers, wireless access points etc.), indeed if I were daft enough I could make my Z21 accessible to every device on the internet with the appropriate routing/firewall configuration. The Z21 is  completely unaware of wireless configuration, subnet masks etc, it simply interacts with any networking device which connects using UDP protocol on the configured port.

 

What that means is that the number of connected IP clients is not constrained by the Z21 (z21, z21start, smartRail) software. The number of clients is not constrained by subnet mask.  But that doesn't mean that the number of connected clients is unlimited. Depending on the broadcast flags that a connected client requests then each client requires:

 

Some RAM on the Z21 to store the connection parameters.

Some CPU resource to decode incoming requests, perform the required operation, and broadcast any reports of changed state.

 

Using my own software I've tested up to 48 concurrent connections, using different broadcast flag specifications. At that point I was seeing timeouts on requests to the Z21, and intermittently failing to see updates from the Z21, both indicative of resource shortages.

 

I believe the exact number of supported clients depends on the combination of broadcast flags each is using, and the 'concurrency' of requests. I think the suggestion of a practical limit of 10 is because Roco are confident that the hardware can support 10 concurrent requests, but I don't believe there is a hard limit coded in the z/Z21 software.

 

Cheers

Dave 

 

[Greensman]

Many thanks for the comments and suggestions.

We hit this problem again at a exhibition we attended a few weeks ago, so I've had a good go at getting to the point where I can reliably reproduce the problem.

 

I shall be logging a problem report with ROCO (shown below) but would be interested if anybody here has any other ideas on the cause.

Personally, I think it is software (or even firmware) related as it would seem to be related to the z21, rather than the router......

 

If anybody actually has 4 WLAN-MULTIMAUS available and an android pad and can actually have a go at replicating the problem, I would be really grateful as it would confirm that it isn't just me!!!!!

 

PROBLEM - Wireless z21 connection drops out and WLAN-MULTIMAUS controllers lock.

 

Setup.

4 WLAN-MULTIMAUS plus 1 android pad.

Enter CONTROL STATION on pad 21 app – test fire a point – pad loses connection and all 4 WLAN-MULTIMAUS show the following error

4.3 – Page 69 - WLAN-MULTIMAUS® user manual

'Both the arrow symbols and the pause symbol are flashing, and the radio symbol indicates there is a connection'

 

All suggestions indicated by the error message are not applicable as everything works as it should do when there are 3 WLAN-MULTIMAUS and an android pad in use. This only happens when a 4th WLAN-MULTIMAUS is added.

 

The z21 base unit with a wired maus continues to work after the wireless controllers and pad have locked up.

 

The only way to clear the lock is to power-off and power-on the z21 base unit. Powering off the router alone will not reset the controllers and pad.

 

The lockup only seems to happen when a 4th WLAN-MULTIMAUS is used. The problem doesn’t happen with 3 WLAN-MULTIMAUS and an android pad.

 

The z21 and WLAN-MULTIMAUS are all on the latest firmware versions.

 

The android pads are using the latest version of the app.

 

Different android pads have been used, using different versions of android, and the lockup still happens.

 

The z21 doesn’t have to be connected to the layout . The lockup will happen if it is connected or unconnected – so the layout is not part of the problem.

[WIMorrison]

I never use wireless connections at an exhibition as there are too many devices competing for signal and too many layouts have lost control when using wireless control in public exhibitions. The last Warley exhibition was a classic example where wireless control was falling over for many layouts and people were rushing to buy wired devices to control their layouts.

 

You should always use wired connections when you need reliability

[melmerby]

What happens with 3 WLAN Maus + 1 Android and then add a 2nd Android?

[PaulRhB]

19 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

I never use wireless connections at an exhibition as there are too many devices competing for signal and too many layouts have lost control when using wireless control in public exhibitions. The last Warley exhibition was a classic example where wireless control was falling over for many layouts and people were rushing to buy wired devices to control their layouts.

 

You should always use wired connections when you need reliability

We had an issue at Warley 2019, we were running three wifiMaus and three Android tablets with two wired throttles plus an iPhone on a black Z21.
We were fine until about midday then the wifiMice started having trouble connecting. They never displayed error codes though. The three tablets and the iPhone remained working without issue. 
 

I know for several years pc based wifi systems have had issues at Warley and that was evidently down to most operating on default router settings which several solved by upping the power, and no doubt wiping out others systems nearby. No doubt having the bike show next door with their powerful wifi requirements didn’t help either. 

When we chatted to a DCC vendor they had a wifi scanner and the hall was swamped with wifi hotspots from peoples devices, it was so busy the usual line graphs were a mush of colour and it was identifying around 700 networks so probably the hall next door too. You could see them peaking as people walked by the stand. What we got from all this is that the wifiMaus operates at a lower power, to conform to toy regulations, and was swamped by all the phones and tablets. 

We’ve run the same setup at big shows before in sports & school halls without issue but at the National event the hundreds of wifi networks was just too much, fortunately wired throttles and the more powerful tablets and phones were reliable still. 

 

So it’s the lower power devices which have issues not the wifi system as a whole. The Maus wasn’t designed to compete in such a ‘busy’ environment, fortunately the multiple connections on the Z21 allowed us to switch to wired rotary throttles where operators couldn’t get on with touchscreen. 

[KingEdwardII]

5 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

So it’s the lower power devices which have issues not the wifi system as a whole.

I've not used any Maus devices, but I have a lot of experience of using both laptops and android phones in exhibition environments (not model railway exhibitions!). Generally, it was OK to use the laptops and android devices with WiFi unless you were using an under-capacity WiFi router, which would reject connections. Where we had our own stand, we generally brought our own routers with plenty of capacity for our own purposes, which worked well.

 

Exhibition space owners have only gradually realized that they need to put in higher capacity equipment - which of course costs more - but where they want to accommodate Tech exhibitions in particular, they get beat up if their facilities are not up to snuff, both by exhibitors and attendees.

 

Yours,  Mike.

[M3ti]

I have a new issue with my Z21 app on both iPhone, iPad and Android tablet. I also use a WLANMAus which has the same issue.  I use a Digikeijs DR5000 on a garden railway and I have a Google Nest Mesh Wifi Network in the house that has 4 nodes that gives good  wifi coverage for the whole layout.
 

I have been able to get the Z21app, WLANMaus and the DR5000 to all connect to the Mesh WiFi and they work well within each node. However when I move between nodes, ie following a train, the Z21 app and the WLANMaus drop out and don’t regain connectivity when you cross over the limit of coverage for one node. The iPhone, iPad and Android tablet all continue coverage. If I kill the Z21 app and restart it, it will then work in the next node.
 

The WLANmaus is a bigger problem as you can’t turn it off. Is there a setting to enable the WLANMaus to be switched off?

 

I also use a WiThrottle on the the iPhone and iPad and it crosses the nodes seamlessly. 

Anyone know of any settings that may help the apps cross nodes?

 

I have raised a ticket with Roco but had no response. Probably on Xmas break.

 

Cheers

Brian

  

[melmerby]

18 minutes ago, M3ti said:

The WLANmaus is a bigger problem as you can’t turn it off. Is there a setting to enable the WLANMaus to be switched off?

Cheers

Brian

  

What do you mean by "Can't turn it off"

 

If you just want to power down it is normally <Menu> + <OK>

 

Something that annoys me is when you run a loco on the WLAN Maus and leave it running, the Maus eventually powers down even though it is controlling something.

Powering it back it up does not re-establish the loco connexion, so the loco stays uncontrollable.

The only way to sort things out is to turn the track power off/on, the loco stops and the Maus regains control

The setting "Turn Off Time" in the Settings menu says it only shuts down when not in use. AFAIAC controlling a loco is "in use"

 

[M3ti]

2 minutes ago, melmerby said:

What do you mean by "Can't turn it off"

 

If you just want to power down it is normally <Menu> + <OK>

Thanks Keith,

 

Thats exactly what I was looking for on how to turn it off. My German is not that good interpreting the manual. 

 

Now I need to test if I can regain control of the loco in the next node. I hope I don’t get your issue. 
 

cheers

 

Brian

[melmerby]

On 24/12/2021 at 23:54, M3ti said:

Thanks Keith,

 

Thats exactly what I was looking for on how to turn it off. My German is not that good interpreting the manual. 

 

cheers

 

Brian

Haven't you got an English manual?

Mine came with an English section. (page 47 onwards)

 

pdf:

8010813920.pdf

 

 

 

Edited April 7, 2022 by melmerby

[PaulRhB]

40 minutes ago, M3ti said:

have raised a ticket with Roco but had no response. Probably on Xmas break.

It might be the low power of the maus struggling to switch because it still trying to connect to the ‘home’ node and ignoring the others? Phones and tablets are quite a bit more sophisticated in their scanning for string signals. 
 

 

23 minutes ago, melmerby said:

setting "Turn Off Time" in the Settings menu says it only shuts down when not in use. AFAIAC controlling a loco is "in use"

It assumes you will be making control inputs and shuts down if it doesn’t get a button press or dial movement in the set time as the handset is not in use. Remember there is no feedback to the handset it just sends commands so it has no idea the loco is going as the base unit deals with that, the display just records the last control inputs and is tied to the buttons and dial not the base station activity. It assumes you carry the handset around with you. A wired maus handset might be better if you leave trains running as I assume that stays on as powered by the base unit. 
It might be worth trying turning the control knob to zero when it powers up and straight back to the previous setting as that may give almost seamless regain of control if there’s deceleration programmed in?

[SamThomas]

On 06/05/2020 at 15:46, Knuckles said:

Didn't work.

 

FFS.  Frogs seem dead still.  Tried touching frog under board to either black or red as well as over on tracks and no biscuit.  

 

Any ideas?

 

I've showed ye how they were wired.  Worked on single points and single slip on a P4 layout with Tortoises no bother.

 

This is no fun, just angering the 5hit out of me.

 

There is no need to use profanities, even abbreviated ones.

[SamThomas]

Getting used to the new app now but I find the text a little small. Have set the text for the larger size in setting but when you read a locomotives address the last digit is not fully shown.

 

Also, when powering up any sound locomotives on the track seem to go through most of their auxilery sounds (like station announcements) even when their sound is switched off. Not a problem, just seems a bit odd.

[SamThomas]

Getting used to the new app now but I find the text a little small. Have set the text for the larger size in setting but when you read a locomotives address the last digit is not fully shown.

 

Also, when powering up any sound locomotives on the track seem to go through most of their auxilery sounds (like station announcements) even when their sound is switched off. Not a problem, just seems a bit odd.

[melmerby]

On 25/12/2021 at 00:20, PaulRhB said:

It might be worth trying turning the control knob to zero when it powers up and straight back to the previous setting as that may give almost seamless regain of control if there’s deceleration programmed in?

I do turn it to zero when powered up but I cannot get the Maus to regain control until the track power is turned off, and the decoder in the loco loses it's previous settings.

 

I assumed, incorrectly than a re-powered up Maus would just carry on where it left off e.g. by resending to the Z21 the speed setting and loco number it was previously set to.

However for some reason it doesn't re-gain control.

I think the best solution (unless there is some setting I have missed) is just to extend the turn off delay from the default 10mins

 

On 25/12/2021 at 00:20, PaulRhB said:

A wired maus handset might be better if you leave trains running as I assume that stays on as powered by the base unit. 

 

I do walk around with it, that was one reason for getting the wireless one, it's useful at the opposite end of the layout, a distance lot further than a wired unit's cable.

When I used the Lenz unit to control the trains I used a 2 Metre DIN extender cable.

[WIMorrison]

Keith

 

i can take control of any loco at any time by simply calling up its number in the Maus (wired or wireless). I can also take control on the same loco using my other Maus be simply calling up the number. Similarly iTrain will take over control if it is providing the control. I can even use the Z21 app on the phone (but only use that to show people the interface working)

 

I never need to switch anything off to get control of anything, it is seamless between all the control systems that I use.

[PaulRhB]

Yes I’ve never come across having to power down. Have you checked the base station is fully updated? The update app works through pc or tablet. 
I do have 20ft cables for my maus and Piko Smartcontrol handsets too as the layout is 34x11 when set up. 

[melmerby]

38 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

 Have you checked the base station is fully updated? The update app works through pc or tablet. 
 

Latest updates for Z21 & Maus. TrainController is not running. Just on as a basic DCC system.

I've just been using it to run in a loco by running around the layout for a while on a set speed.

When I come to change the speed, I find the Maus is off. When I switch it back on It won't regain control of loco. It does re-establish the wireless link.