Mark 1’s withdrawn in the 1960’s

[stovepipe]

Is that list totally accurate especially for the non gangwayed stock?

There hardly seems enough lavatory stock to form the outer suburban sets that appear to feature in pictures of GN services of the 70s

 

It's from the first RCTS listing of coaching stock, so I assume mostly accurate in the context of the BR lists available at the time, and the vagaries of typsetting large columns of numbers. In respect of the non-gangwayed stock, Robert Carroll's yahoo coaching group carries the BR stock totals for 1970 and it is the virtually the same as the RCTS book for 1971, with 15 SLOs, but 1 more S.

 

Delving into the diagram books for 1969 (no 1970 book available) shows 4 outer-suburban sets of 6 coaches each with 3 SLOs. These were for services to Hitchin, Baldock, Royston, Cambridge, Huntingdon and Peterborough.

[rodent279]

I'm sure that asbestos was a factor, though Cravens built only relatively small numbers of seated stock - 15 SO, 40 CK, and 45 SK. Asbestos it seems was much less used from 1957 onwards.

 

I guess the full withdrawal details will be in the Longworth book, but from RCTS lists the picture at the end of 1971 was

 

Type Built Remaining %age Remaining

FO 151 149 99

TSO/SO 1385 1105 80

BSO 181 107 59

FK 410 238 58

BFK 28 27 99

CK 1268 875 69

BCK 276 156 57

SK 2218 1616 73

BSK 1500 907 60

 

C 57 0 0

CL 50 12 24

BS 284 22 8

S 300 68 23

SLO 28 15 54

SO (NG) 26 0 0

 

[sleepers and restaurant vehicles ignored due to number of conversions etc.]

 

Apart from proving I have time on my hands today....it shows that of the 5,700 corridor coaches built, a third had been withdrawn (or re-purposed) within 8 years of production finishing. For the non-corridor coaches, all 149 of the long-frame coaches had been withdrawn by 1968, and only 177 of the 596 short-frames remained 15 years after production ceased.

Do these figures only show LHCS, or does it include SR EPB-type EMU's? These were effectively long frame MK1 non-corridor suburbans, built as EMU's, and as such survived in use until the late 1990's.

[stewartingram]

It's from the first RCTS listing of coaching stock, so I assume mostly accurate in the context of the BR lists available at the time, and the vagaries of typsetting large columns of numbers. In respect of the non-gangwayed stock, Robert Carroll's yahoo coaching group carries the BR stock totals for 1970 and it is the virtually the same as the RCTS book for 1971, with 15 SLOs, but 1 more S.

 

Delving into the diagram books for 1969 (no 1970 book available) shows 4 outer-suburban sets of 6 coaches each with 3 SLOs. These were for services to Hitchin, Baldock, Royston, Cambridge, Huntingdon and Peterborough.

 

Now that is a surprise! As a resident of Cambridge at that time, I can only personally recall seeing 1 (yes one!) mk 1 suburban coach at Cambridge. I actually travelled on it from March just for the novelty value, behind a 31. (I felt at the time that it was a dmu substitute, 31 + 3 or 4 coaches in a scratch rake, but no way of knowing the truth).

That of course is not to say they did appear and I missed them.

 

Stewart

Edited February 5, 2018 by stewartingram

[AberdeenBill]

The first 1951 batch of Mk 1 RKs were anthracite fired and several went very early, such as the token example (S 80009) allocated to the Southern Region for the Royal Wessex set.     

 

Conversely there were some new builds of essentially Mk 1 design for 4-Rep motor coaches in 1973-4. 

 

Bill

[stovepipe]

Do these figures only show LHCS, or does it include SR EPB-type EMU's? These were effectively long frame MK1 non-corridor suburbans, built as EMU's, and as such survived in use until the late 1990's.

It's just the loco-hauled coaching stock.

[adb968008]

Thanks for the answers.

 

So the follow up question is what was the first preserved mk1’s ?

 

Didn’t nymr have some xp64 coaches, I remember them in the 1980’s.

Edited February 5, 2018 by adb968008

[russ p]

I was told its a TSO on the north Norfolk

Its quite amazing so many CLs etc got saved as there were so few of them in the mid 70s when a lot of lines were opening up

[stovepipe]

Now that is a surprise! As a resident of Cambridge at that time, I can only personally recall seeing 1 (yes one!) mk 1 suburban coach at Cambridge. I actually travelled on it from March just for the novelty value, behind a 31. (I felt at the time that it was a dmu substitute, 31 + 3 or 4 coaches in a scratch rake, but no way of knowing the truth).

That of course is not to say they did appear and I missed them.

 

Stewart

 

It was a single working 21.30 KX - Cambridge arr 23.07, and 07.55 Cambridge - Royston, 0837 Royston - KX the next day, weekdays only. It's perhaps not surprising you didn't see it.

[russ p]

That can't be the same one as Stewart caught it at March

[russ p]

Sorry didn't read the full original post

[EddieK]

Thanks for the answers.

 

So the follow up question is what was the first preserved mk1’s ?

 

Didn’t nymr have some xp64 coaches, I remember them in the 1980’s.

Yes - there were a couple of XP64s on the NYMR. I believe that they have now moved to Wensleydale. The XP64s were latterly sheeted-up and stored in the long siding by the running line north of Pickering. They were not needed as there were plenty of usable Mark 1s and they were well-equipped with (ahem) heritage insulation material.

[Marshall5]

Didn't the Dean Forest also have a couple of XP64 carriages but possibly scrapped by now?

Ray.

[Philou]

Hello chums,

 

I'm reviving this thread as I have a question regarding Mk1s converted into departmental stock.

 

As a recent birthday gift I was given three (yes 3) ballast cleaner staff coaches from Hornby (R40006-8) and I mused the following questions:

 

How many ballast cleaner staff coaches does a layout need?

 

Where would these coaches have been used in the UK?

 

What would have been a 'normal' consist? and;

 

What would have hauled the consist (and in what colours)?

 

I had never considered having departmental stock, though some of the stock available RTR looks very good. I do have a rake of auto-ballasters but these are probably too modern for the stock.

 

I'm period agnostic as my collection waiting for 'the' layout could cover from pre-1940 to 2019 though all rakes I'm trying to keep as correct as possible.

 

Any ideas?

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

 

[doilum]

Just a personal recollection. Circa 1970, I remember rugby cup tie specials using corridor stock. Grubby with torn / worn out seating, they were probably only used for this particular Saturday traffic.

[russ p]

Just to throw a spanner in the works , when were the last pre nationalisation design day coaches withdrawn? 

With all those mk1s being withdrawn so early how did so many survey the late 60s some portholes and Hawksworths actually got into blue and grey 

[Joseph_Pestell]

14 minutes ago, russ p said:

Just to throw a spanner in the works , when were the last pre nationalisation design day coaches withdrawn? 

With all those mk1s being withdrawn so early how did so many survey the late 60s some portholes and Hawksworths actually got into blue and grey 

 

I think that the last would be the Gresley buffets. 1976?

[russ p]

10 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

I think that the last would be the Gresley buffets. 1976?

 

Cheers,  I was thinking more of just normal day coaches 

[Joseph_Pestell]

The surviving Portholes and Hawksworths were probably all built post 1948. Last year for LMS built coaches seems to be 1967 with the exception of just one vehicle in 1976 (Jenkinson/Essery). I can't help wondering if that is a typo. Or perhaps a coach that got abandoned somewhere and forgotten about?

[Gwiwer]

39 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

I think that the last would be the Gresley buffets. 1976?

With the Thompson buffets from the Cambridge - Kings Cross sets going not too much earlier.  

 

It never occurred to me at the time, being quite young, that the carriages I saw parked up at Long Rock / Ponsandane marked COND and bearing the ⊗ "no brakes" symbol crudely applied in white paint were actually Mk1s but they were.  It never occurred to me at the time that these might still be fairly youthful vehicles aged between 10 - 15 years.  

 

Many years later these thoughts did occur and whilst I have no record of the carriage numbers in question the answers as to why they were dumped in a withdrawn condition are largely contained within this thread.  

 

Whilst network contraction and greater efficiency of rolling stock utilisation no doubt played a part this was a time when we still welcomed a Thompson vehicle into Penzance fairly regualrly on a cross-country train.  Again I have no records but the oval white-glazed lavatory window which I recall clearly was a distinctive feature of those coaches.  We also saw a 12-wheeler on one or two occasions.

 

As often in railway history it seems logic and reason lie poles apart.  

Edited November 2, 2020 by Gwiwer

[shipbadger]

As this thread has started up again I'll answer a question from 2018!  Yes the DFR had two XP64 coaches.  Riddled with asbestos.  One has gone to the scrap man after it cost £10,000 to remove the asbestos before he would take it.  Needless to say the second vehicle is still on site and sheeted over.  I was asked to help take the buckeye couplers off it a while back as they were less worn than some in use.  And yes, they do wear over time.  Recently the decision to dispose of for scrap has been reconsidered and at present there is no immediate plan for disposal, but what exactly we can do with it is another matter.  Like all heritage railways it boils down to money, labour and time.  Covid-19 has not helped with any of these.

There is now a shortage of either servicable or servicable with a little work Mk 1s for sale.  For this reason we purchased 2 mk2s as we desperately needed more seats on the trains (this was pre-Covid-19).  I suspect they will present a whole new can of worms in time but at least one heritage railway in the east of the country seems to have got the hang of repairing them.

Edited November 2, 2020 by shipbadger
Additional paragraph added.

[adb968008]

ELR was definitely an early adopter of mk2’s.. they were running a full NSE rake back in 1992

[phil-b259]

On 02/11/2020 at 14:10, shipbadger said:

 

There is now a shortage of either serviceable or serviceable with a little work Mk 1s for sale.  For this reason we purchased 2 mk2s as we desperately needed more seats on the trains (this was pre-Covid-19).  I suspect they will present a whole new can of worms in time but at least one heritage railway in the east of the country seems to have got the hang of repairing them.

 

The issue with Mk2s is their monocoque construction. Cut a bit of corroded steel out of the side in the wrong way and the whole coach will fold / crumple / bend as structural integrity is lost.

 

This compares with a Mk1 where all the strength is in the underframe. Provided thats OK you can chop away at the body as much as you like - you are unlikely to compromise the coaches structural integrity such that it cannot run in future (even if the body collapses). In this respect Mk1s can be considered in much the same way as their wooden bodied predecessors, many of which have needed massive amounts of repair / replacement of body parts.

 

Now obviously it possible to repair a monocoque coach - BR, and leasing companies have been doing it for years to the Mk2 / Mk3 / Mk4 types, but you do need to know what you are doing. Heritage railways generally don't have the same skills or equipment necessary to take on the task so they usually steer well clear of these later builds for fear of turning a potentially serviceable coach into a tube of scrap metal.

 

As you say, given their age (the youngest Mk1s are well over 50 years old), its not exactly a surprise the remaining ones are in need of more and more work. Yes they helped the preservation scene enormously in the 70s & 80s, providing cheap RTR stock for railways starting out but that was never going to last forever. Thing is, with slam doors and opening windows fast becoming a memory on our national network, a decently refurbished Mk1s can still have an 'old fashioned' charm about it as far as the paying public are concerned.

Edited November 3, 2020 by phil-b259

[Phil Bullock]

7 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

 

As you say, given their age (the youngest Mk1s are well over 50 years old, its not exactly a surprise the remaining ones are in need of more and more work. Yes they helped the preservation scene enormously in the 70s & 80s, providing cheap RTR stock for railways starting out but that was never going to last forever. Thing is, with slam doors and opening windows fast becoming a memory on our national network, a decently refurbished Mk1s can still have an 'old fashioned' charm about it as far as the paying public are concerned.

Particularly BSK, SK , CK and FK variants.... compartments are a novelty these days and have proved a Covid godsend! Does anyone have a preserved BFK? I know there a couple of mainline support vehicles.....

Edited November 3, 2020 by Phil Bullock

[eastwestdivide]

20 hours ago, shipbadger said:

There is now a shortage of either servicable or servicable with a little work Mk 1s for sale

There's a couple of other threads touching on this theme:

 

 

[giz]

3 hours ago, Phil Bullock said:

Particularly BSK, SK , CK and FK variants.... compartments are a novelty these days and have proved a Covid godsend! Does anyone have a preserved BFK? I know there a couple of mainline support vehicles.....

I believe there is a BFK at Chasewater running with their dmu centre car set.