AMTRAK/CSX accident

[dibber25]

I'm seeing reports of a collision between a New York-Miami AMTRAK passenger train and a CSX freight at Cayce, South Carolina. News reports are stating two fatalities to AMTRAK staff. Aerial photographs appear to show a head-on collision.

[Phil Bullock]

That does not sound good. Whilst the causes of such incidents inevitably stimulate discussion lets not forget those involved

 

Phil

[TotalLamer]

That does not sound good. Whilst the causes of such incidents inevitably stimulate discussion lets not forget those involved

 

Phil

 

The really interesting (not interesting as in good, just interesting as in a rarity) is that it seems like the accident occurred within the limits of a signal suspension.  Not good.

[tamperman36]

As already said, now is the time to offer our thoughts to those who have lost loved ones and to those who have suffered injuries.

 

Now is not the time to speculate on the cause or offer opinions, or point fingers and lay blame, now is time to let the experts investigate and give correct, informed details that will help make the industry safer and better for all.

[Conrail Joe]

Very sad. prayers to all of those affected.

[mdvle]

Drone footage https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fp36W9L741E&feature=youtu.be

[Talltim]

From news reports it’s looking like the CSX train was tied up (awaiting crew change) in a siding (passing loop) and the switch was wrongly set causing the head-on. Probably lucky the crew weren’t on board the CSX train, the lead unit is not looking good either.

[Talltim]

What is also worrying is that what at first looks like two coaches in the woods is actually two halves of one, snapped in two

[russ p]

As a driver myself it always gets to me when train crew get killed no matter where it is in the world.

Its not that i don't care about other casualties, I just think that these guys may have had similar lives to me an what it would be like if it was me

[TotalLamer]

From news reports it’s looking like the CSX train was tied up (awaiting crew change) in a siding (passing loop) and the switch was wrongly set causing the head-on. Probably lucky the crew weren’t on board the CSX train, the lead unit is not looking good either.

 

The way things are looking now is that the CSX train that was hit had shoved back into a storage track (not a signaled siding, just a storage track accessed by a hand-throw switch off the main) on the other side of the mainline from an automobile unloading ramp facility.  It was during a signal suspension so track warrants were required.  So the CSX train shoves in the clear, thinks he lines the switch back but doesn't.  Calls the dispatcher, gives back his track and the switch.  Dispatcher gives track to Amtrak.  Wreck ensues.

 

This is signaled territory which would normally have alerted the dispatcher to the open switch and would have prevented him from setting a conflicting movement, however a signal suspension was in effect to cut in new PTC signals.

 

This is NOT a final story, this is ONLY an educated guess based on information both public and heard through the grapevine.  Again, an educated guess ONLY.

[Talltim]

The way things are looking now is that the CSX train that was hit had shoved back into a storage track (not a signaled siding, just a storage track accessed by a hand-throw switch off the main) on the other side of the mainline from an automobile unloading ramp facility.  It was during a signal suspension so track warrants were required.  So the CSX train shoves in the clear, thinks he lines the switch back but doesn't.  Calls the dispatcher, gives back his track and the switch.  Dispatcher gives track to Amtrak.  Wreck ensues.

 

This is signaled territory which would normally have alerted the dispatcher to the open switch and would have prevented him from setting a conflicting movement, however a signal suspension was in effect to cut in new PTC signals.

 

This is NOT a final story, this is ONLY an educated guess based on information both public and heard through the grapevine.  Again, an educated guess ONLY.

Google maps shows the siding as being double ended, although the imagery may be out of date or the switch at the other end out of use. (or the train was part way through switching the autorack loading site)

[TotalLamer]

Google maps shows the siding as being double ended, although the imagery may be out of date or the switch at the other end out of use. (or the train was part way through switching the autorack loading site)

 

It's not that it's not double-ended, it's that it's not a siding.  It's a storage track.  A siding would have interlockings at either end besides being just classified as a different kind of track.  This particular track is called the Silica Storage Track.  Here's a snippet from the timetable for this location:

 

[TTDB]

Terrible incident I didn't know as not been online for a few days, a friend I made many yeas ago simply from an eBay purchase drives this route for Amtrak they drive the section from Jacksonville Florida to Hamlet North Carolina have an overnight and back the next day I've send my condolences via an FB message as the engineer concerned was Jacksonville based RIP

[Talltim]

It's not that it's not double-ended, it's that it's not a siding. It's a storage track. A siding would have interlockings at either end besides being just classified as a different kind of track. This particular track is called the Silica Storage Track. Here's a snippet from the timetable for this location:

 

Thanks. UK-US terminology differences strike again. Just when I thought I’d got my head around it.

[Supaned]

I don't know why , but this particular accident seems to have got to me more than others. My thoughts go out to all affected and involved.

[don]

The way things are looking now is that the CSX train that was hit had shoved back into a storage track (not a signaled siding, just a storage track accessed by a hand-throw switch off the main) on the other side of the mainline from an automobile unloading ramp facility.  It was during a signal suspension so track warrants were required.  So the CSX train shoves in the clear, thinks he lines the switch back but doesn't.  Calls the dispatcher, gives back his track and the switch.  Dispatcher gives track to Amtrak.  Wreck ensues.

 

This is signaled territory which would normally have alerted the dispatcher to the open switch and would have prevented him from setting a conflicting movement, however a signal suspension was in effect to cut in new PTC signals.

 

This is NOT a final story, this is ONLY an educated guess based on information both public and heard through the grapevine.  Again, an educated guess ONLY.

Now sadly confirmed.

Thoughts to all concerned.

Don..

[Oldddudders]

I don't know why , but this particular accident seems to have got to me more than others. My thoughts go out to all affected and involved.

If it is indeed human error by the CSX engineer, and he has survived, he will carry the guilt for the rest of his days. In the wake of the St Johns (SE London) crash in the late ‘50s, the driver of the Bulleid pacific who had missed signals was hounded by the press and ended up in a mental home, so I was told a few years later.

[Zomboid]

Just awful, and so soon after the one near Seattle. Hopefully it'll be a long time before we read about another crash, anywhere in the world.

[dibber25]

The practice of having locally-operated switches (hand-thrown points) to industrial sidings (spurs) within a signal controlled section is normal practice in North America. I've always found it to be quite terrifying. How you overcome it when the distances are so vast and the number of such locations is so great, I don't know. I have certainly read at least one Transport Canada accident report where a crew failed to re-align an industrial switch for the main line and an accident resulted. I once raised the subject with a friend who is a VIA Rail engineer. The best that she could come up with was that she always watched the rails as far ahead as possible. At high speed, I doubt that would be much help. (CJL)

[4630]

At high speed, I doubt that would be much help. (CJL)

 

 

...or in the dark; Or if the switches are covered in snow which is probably a distinct possibility in many parts of the US and Canada at this time of year.

[Spitfire2865]

The practice of having locally-operated switches (hand-thrown points) to industrial sidings (spurs) within a signal controlled section is normal practice in North America. I've always found it to be quite terrifying. How you overcome it when the distances are so vast and the number of such locations is so great, I don't know. I have certainly read at least one Transport Canada accident report where a crew failed to re-align an industrial switch for the main line and an accident resulted. I once raised the subject with a friend who is a VIA Rail engineer. The best that she could come up with was that she always watched the rails as far ahead as possible. At high speed, I doubt that would be much help. (CJL)

I think a big problem is the lack of rail lines.  Especially with Amtrak having only running rights for the Class 1s routes, youre bound to have Amtrak running on lines bordering industries, with those unprotected hand thrown points.  Unless the Class 1s want to put the money in to revamp their entire network and bring it up to modern specs, Amtrak is SOL.  

The entire situation is an awful mistake on the part of a handful of people working with an outdated and error prone system.  Its just a shame so many got caught up in that mistake.  

[TomHolley]

I think a big problem is the lack of rail lines.  Especially with Amtrak having only running rights for the Class 1s routes, youre bound to have Amtrak running on lines bordering industries, with those unprotected hand thrown points.  Unless the Class 1s want to put the money in to revamp their entire network and bring it up to modern specs, Amtrak is SOL.  

The entire situation is an awful mistake on the part of a handful of people working with an outdated and error prone system.  Its just a shame so many got caught up in that mistake.  

This is what PTC is supposed to fix.

 

Regards,

 

Tom Holley

[Oldddudders]

I think a big problem is the lack of rail lines.  Especially with Amtrak having only running rights for the Class 1s routes, youre bound to have Amtrak running on lines bordering industries, with those unprotected hand thrown points.  Unless the Class 1s want to put the money in to revamp their entire network and bring it up to modern specs, Amtrak is SOL.  

The entire situation is an awful mistake on the part of a handful of people working with an outdated and error prone system.  Its just a shame so many got caught up in that mistake.  

 

Let's try to be fair to history here. Amtrak is a necessary modern invention, because the olde railroads got fed up with running vestigial passenger services. But the fact is that the great days of the American Passenger Train were conducted, broadly safely, with just such a mix of block systems, timetable and train-order, dark territory and handpoints. Their safety record was far from dreadful. When safety systems are disconnected, a new level of temporary local assurance needs to be in place. It apparently wasn't. 

[Zomboid]

Despite recent events, I wouldn't go anywhere near "dreadful" when describing Amtrak safety. I'd certainly have no hesitation in traveling on an Amtrak train.

[TotalLamer]

The practice of having locally-operated switches (hand-thrown points) to industrial sidings (spurs) within a signal controlled section is normal practice in North America. I've always found it to be quite terrifying. How you overcome it when the distances are so vast and the number of such locations is so great, I don't know. I have certainly read at least one Transport Canada accident report where a crew failed to re-align an industrial switch for the main line and an accident resulted. I once raised the subject with a friend who is a VIA Rail engineer. The best that she could come up with was that she always watched the rails as far ahead as possible. At high speed, I doubt that would be much help. (CJL)

 

In normal operations, such hand-throw switches aren't really unprotected as leaving one open would result in either a track light or the dispatcher being able to specifically see that the switch is open, I'm not 100% sure which one it is (as I'm not a dispatcher).  But either way, the main is protected because the result would be no one else being lined along that route.  It's just such a crazy thing, the likelihood of forgetting to line the switch back occurring during a short (usually 12-16 hours I think) signal suspension.

Edited February 7, 2018 by TotalLamer