Roco Z21 Programming question ?

[amdaley]

Hi Everyone.

 

I have a question regarding programming on the Z21.

 

If If I have a loco running in on a rolling road can I program another loco on a program track at the same time or will the Z21 turn off the track power while I am using the program track ?

 

Thanks everyone.

[Vecchio]

Have not tried yet but can do tonight - I expect only the program track to be switched off. If you can wait - answer at 17:30....

Edited February 7, 2018 by Vecchio

[amdaley]

Have not tried yet but can do tonight - I expect only the program track to be switched off. If you can wait - answer at 17:30....

 

Cheers Vecchio.

Much obliged.

 

Regards.

Tony.

[Vecchio]

OK, checked it. If one engine is running and another one is on the programming track, the z21 switches off the track voltage while it is reading or writing to the programming track. This means if you have whatever train is running, it will stop while a programming command is given. 

 

Hope this helps

Vecchio

[amdaley]

OK, checked it. If one engine is running and another one is on the programming track, the z21 switches off the track voltage while it is reading or writing to the programming track. This means if you have whatever train is running, it will stop while a programming command is given. 

 

Hope this helps

Vecchio

 

Thanks Vecchio.

Just the information I was looking for.

 

Tony.

[Phil S]

To be able to RUN and PROGRAM sumultaneously:

This is why I have a 2nd control system on our layout for use at shows:it both acts as an on-site spare if the main unit fails, and also allows (re)programming or adjustment / testing of any loco on a separated track whilst trains continue to run on all tracks on the main layout.    

If not programming , then it acts as a means of keeping 1 train running on a part of the layout whilst the other is sorted. (and the main layout is divided into 3 sub-districts - via PSX intelligent breakers with their auto reset attempts every 2 seconds - which is useful as it responds almost immediately the fault is cleared.)

 

(In my case, this means either a Z21 or MultiCentralePro, its predecessor, as the 'Main Layout Controller - If MCP then another MCP as spare because of their unique Blue ZigBee Wireless MultimausPros. A Std Roco Amplifier and cabled Multimaus runs the 'tourist loop' that can be safely run independently by visitors - OR can be used to program locos on the same loop**.  One cabled multimaus is also always used on the Main controller in case of radio reception problems. In all cases they are powered by Switched Mode Power Supplies (now standard)

**as a further refinement, a crossover links the tourist/test loop to the main layout, and when set, ALSO switches the track's power between independent and Main - this makes it easier to program multiple  units - driving them in or out of the test circuit.

[Vecchio]

The workaround to problems about programming one loco and running others during a show is POM. This has improved, especially with the new app, you can even change parameters of a locomotive that is currently running. Useful for instance if you have the too loud - or too silent - sound loco. Change it while it is running - and you can set it as you would set the volume of your car radio. You can use POM for almost everything, and if you have a modern decoder it will also read CVs.

[Phil S]

The workaround to problems about programming one loco and running others during a show is POM. This has improved, especially with the new app, you can even change parameters of a locomotive that is currently running. Useful for instance if you have the too loud - or too silent - sound loco. Change it while it is running - and you can set it as you would set the volume of your car radio. You can use POM for almost everything, and if you have a modern decoder it will also read CVs.

Not if it involves changing the basic loco address CV1 - as this is not permitted in many systems in PoM.   Much easier and quicker to have a separate Multimaus and Amplifier with no feedback -for quick programming.   Or a Sprog for mor complex and a record on the computer.

[amdaley]

Hi Everyone.

 

I was hoping that the Z21 would be able to run a loco on the main / layout while programming a loco on a separate program track at the same time but Vecchio has said otherwise.

Thanks Vecchio for going to the trouble of checking that out for me.

 

Is there any system which allows a loco to run on the main while programming another loco on a program track at the same time ?

Even though the Roco app allows two control panels on screen at the same time the basic software underneath is no different to my NCE Power Pro 5 amp system which must be 10 years old now.

The NCE system has programming on the main as well.

 

The big advantage of the Z21 seems to be the graphics ?

This is not a criticism of Roco, just to say that despite the advances in technology underneath nothing has advanced that much ? 

 

EDIT: Further thought came to mind.

 

If you plug a handheld controller into the front of the Z21 or use a wireless throttle with the Z21 do they switch off as well when go to the program track using the Roco app ?

 

Tony.

Edited February 8, 2018 by amdaley

[Vecchio]

Not if it involves changing the basic loco address CV1 - as this is not permitted in many systems in PoM.   Much easier and quicker to have a separate Multimaus and Amplifier with no feedback -for quick programming.   Or a Sprog for mor complex and a record on the computer.

 

It is clear that you cannot change CV1 without the programming track - But I didn't think that this is a change you would do while running trains at a show?

I do that normally once - when I purchase a loco - and that's it. After that it keeps its address. Especially with the Z21 this is easy - I just give them sequential numbers as you see on your graphic display a photo of the loco anyway. I just created number ranges to sort them out somehow - continental from 4 upwards, British from 70 upwards, continental narrow gauge from 90 upwards. This I took over from the times I had the older Lenz system (which is still in use - but not for programming).

[WIMorrison]

The workaround to problems about programming one loco and running others during a show is POM. This has improved, especially with the new app, you can even change parameters of a locomotive that is currently running. Useful for instance if you have the too loud - or too silent - sound loco. Change it while it is running - and you can set it as you would set the volume of your car radio. You can use POM for almost everything, and if you have a modern decoder it will also read CVs.

 

This is why I use Railcom as it allows you to change all CVs whilst the loco is moving, you don't need a programming track at all (assuming your decoders are Railcom enabled )

[Vecchio]

Hi Everyone.

 

I was hoping that the Z21 would be able to run a loco on the main / layout while programming a loco on a separate program track at the same time but Vecchio has said otherwise.

Thanks Vecchio for going to the trouble of checking that out for me.

 

Is there any system which allows a loco to run on the main while programming another loco on a program track at the same time ?

Even though the Roco app allows two control panels on screen at the same time the basic software underneath is no different to my NCE Power Pro 5 amp system which must be 10 years old now.

The NCE system has programming on the main as well.

 

The big advantage of the Z21 seems to be the graphics ?

This is not a criticism of Roco, just to say that despite the advances in technology underneath nothing has advanced that much ? 

 

EDIT: Further thought came to mind.

 

If you plug a handheld controller into the front of the Z21 or use a wireless throttle with the Z21 do they switch off as well when go to the program track using the Roco app ?

 

Tony.

What you have running on the wireless handheld device doesn't change - it means I open a separate window on my phone for the programming - the first one, controlling the train on the main track is still active. While I read or write to the loco on the programming track the supply voltage is switched off - after that the loco on the main track will accelerate again to the same value as it was before.  

 

I have one wired handheld controller - but I never use it - as with one tablet (good enough to control 2 locos) and an android phone I have enough possibilities to control my layout. And they are so much more comfortable that the wired controller went into the back of the cupboard...

 

The big advantage of the Roco software for me is: Easy selection of a loco from a library - by actually seeing a photo of it. No fear - the number is there as well should you have several locos of the same type. The programming of the function control keys - you can decide where you want which function and there are symbols which tell you which function it is. So you can see what you do and you do not know that the whistle is under F4. There is the possibility to have momentary functions, on-off function ore timed functions. Also you can write text into the function key window to describe what it is.

You program all once on one device, and then you send it in an easy way to the other devices in your wireless net. This saves a lot of maintenance work.

You have a software to build a mimic view of your layout and control from your screen also the points - looking at the mimic board.

The WIFI gives you the freedom to move around and always have control while a wired system needs you to disconnect and reconnect (if you have more sockets for that). There are also infra red systems on the market (Bachmann) - you turn away - and you lose control...

The Roco system is open for most of the European protocols, can handle also company specific features (as for instance Lenz asymmetric signal control) and you can even update decoders (Zimo) should you need that without buying additional adapters.  

 

Last but not least - I grew up in the Roco country, so I have a piece of engineering of my home country in my hand, and I can tell you - or assure you - not a bad one.

Vecchio

Edited February 8, 2018 by Vecchio

[Vecchio]

This is why I use Railcom as it allows you to change all CVs whilst the loco is moving, you don't need a programming track at all (assuming your decoders are Railcom enabled )

 

This is what I mean if I write modern decoder...

 

"You can use POM for almost everything, and if you have a modern decoder it will also read CVs."

 

But there are still a number of older Lenz and Roco decoders in my collection, so it will not work for everything.

[WIMorrison]

The difference between using POM with Railcom is that you can read the CVs, for decoders that do not have Railcom or that have had it switched off (most decoders) is that you can only write the CV when using POM. Also Most block detectors, auto reversers, etc block Railcom.

 

If you want to read the CV on non Railcom you will still need the programming track.

[amdaley]

While looking around for prices on the Z21 system I spotted this on Scograil ?

 

**  Please note we have had to put a temporary hold on selling the latest version of the back Z21
as a hardware upgrade has introduced a fault with some of the decoder reading.  As soon as
ROCO fix the issue, we will put these back on sale.  Sorry for any inconvenience.  ****

 

Anyone throw any light on this ?

[WIMorrison]

This can only apply to new buys as hardware hasn’t been updated for those of us who already have Z21s.

 

We have had a software upgrade but that is very different

[Bergmann]

OK, checked it. If one engine is running and another one is on the programming track, the z21 switches off the track voltage while it is reading or writing to the programming track. This means if you have whatever train is running, it will stop while a programming command is given. 

 

Hope this helps

Vecchio

Even with current firmware and the new Z21 App no ​​change.

[amdaley]

What you have running on the wireless handheld device doesn't change - it means I open a separate window on my phone for the programming - the first one, controlling the train on the main track is still active. While I read or write to the loco on the programming track the supply voltage is switched off - after that the loco on the main track will accelerate again to the same value as it was before.  

 

I have one wired handheld controller - but I never use it - as with one tablet (good enough to control 2 locos) and an android phone I have enough possibilities to control my layout. And they are so much more comfortable that the wired controller went into the back of the cupboard...

 

The big advantage of the Roco software for me is: Easy selection of a loco from a library - by actually seeing a photo of it. No fear - the number is there as well should you have several locos of the same type. The programming of the function control keys - you can decide where you want which function and there are symbols which tell you which function it is. So you can see what you do and you do not know that the whistle is under F4. There is the possibility to have momentary functions, on-off function ore timed functions. Also you can write text into the function key window to describe what it is.

You program all once on one device, and then you send it in an easy way to the other devices in your wireless net. This saves a lot of maintenance work.

You have a software to build a mimic view of your layout and control from your screen also the points - looking at the mimic board.

The WIFI gives you the freedom to move around and always have control while a wired system needs you to disconnect and reconnect (if you have more sockets for that). There are also infra red systems on the market (Bachmann) - you turn away - and you lose control...

The Roco system is open for most of the European protocols, can handle also company specific features (as for instance Lenz asymmetric signal control) and you can even update decoders (Zimo) should you need that without buying additional adapters.  

 

Last but not least - I grew up in the Roco country, so I have a piece of engineering of my home country in my hand, and I can tell you - or assure you - not a bad one.

Vecchio

 

Yes as I've said elsewhere the advantage Roco has is the graphics & the friendly way it allows users to see everything they are doing right in front of them.

The Wi-Fi aspect of the Roco is also a good idea although the wireless aspect is nothing new.

My NCE Power Pro system is wireless so I can walk around the layout with just a throttle in my hand & no wires attached. I've had my NCE system for years.

I was surprised that you couldn't run a loco on the layout & program another on the program track at the same time. There's not much point in having two throttles on your tablet & having to stop everything just to use the program track.

I'm sure there's a good reason but I think Roco may have missed a trick there ?

[Nigelcliffe]

Yes as I've said elsewhere the advantage Roco has is the graphics & the friendly way it allows users to see everything they are doing right in front of them.

The Wi-Fi aspect of the Roco is also a good idea although the wireless aspect is nothing new.

My NCE Power Pro system is wireless so I can walk around the layout with just a throttle in my hand & no wires attached. I've had my NCE system for years.

I was surprised that you couldn't run a loco on the layout & program another on the program track at the same time. There's not much point in having two throttles on your tablet & having to stop everything just to use the program track.

I'm sure there's a good reason but I think Roco may have missed a trick there ?

 

Its a different approach to design.  

Many European makers have always disabled the main running lines whilst programming is underway.   Because programming track is a one-off, or now-and-again operation, that requires attention to get it right.   And its got little to do with running a railway, and once basic programming (address and maybe a couple of things) are done, the rest can be done on the main line.  (And, with RailCom capable systems, that mainline programming can also read as well as write).

Many US makers have never disabled the main running lines whilst programming is underway.  But, they risk accidental damage to system when a user bridges the programming track to the main running lines and puts main track current into the programming terminals - that causes systems to go "pfffff"  (I've seen it happen, could name some contributors to RMWeb who've done it )  

 

It's a design trade-off - which is better, depends on how you view the world.

 

 

- Nigel

[amdaley]

Thanks for that Nigel.

Good explanation.

Tony.