So How about a Class 88 Dapol?

[cooley_boy]

I have not seen this anywhere else mentioned So I am starting this thread to encourage the discussion of getting a Class 88 Made. Dapol is the obvious choice for this since they have made the Splendid Class 68 locomotives which share something like 75% (at a guess) of there parts with the class 88. 

I know I would certainly like 2 of these for use on my running line. What are everyone else's thoughts?

 

 

Image borrowed from Railpictures.net

Edited February 9, 2018 by cooley_boy

[vulcan product fan]

I'd buy one and Dapol would get my vote to produce them ...

[KDG]

Far too sensible idea, it'll never work.

 

But I'd like a couple of 'em

[Vonzack]

Hi,

 

Yes I'd definitely be after some of these (in 'N' though).

 

It's a fair few years ago, but has been said in threads on here that when Dapol agreed the license deal for the 68, they tried to get the 88 as well, but that wasn't granted.

 

I think producing them would be a pretty level playing field for any manufacturer as the 68 and 88 have similarities, but the 88 would require new tooling anyway. The Bogies look identical though.

 

Cheers, Mark.

[Simon_H]

Take my money now! I’d for sure buy two at least (its a condition I cant get rid off!)

[Roy Langridge]

I would love one, but Dapol have indicated that the level of reuse is actually quite low. Fingers crossed however.

 

Roy

[cooley_boy]

I would love one, but Dapol have indicated that the level of reuse is actually quite low. Fingers crossed however.

 

Roy

Yeah I can understand that. Fingers crossed for sure. I would have though at least in the design stage that there would be some time saved particularly in the cab ends.

[159220]

A figure of 75% commonality is a little ambitious. Even the prototypes have significant and subtle differences. 

 

The only things the model could share is the metal chassis, motor and circuit board.

 

One would suspect the body sides and roof are separate slides onto the block, thus perhaps they can be put in, but then, even the cab on first appearance is not the same. You would need to remove the Vossloh badge and change the horns. The bogies are subtly different with changes to the wiring and connectors. Actually not even the chassis could be used if we wanted a servo operated working pantograph (which I would expect from a high DCC level model), as space would need to be made in the chassis for this. 

 

Now of course if all the parts are made in one tool block, it is likely easier to start from scratch with a new block of metal....but yes the comment about saving time of R&D is true. Though not really the cost. 

 

So likely the 88 would be a brand new tool, with all the costs associated with it. Seeing as there are only 10 prototypes in one livery. Dapol would be brave to produce the 88, yet... Perhaps if DRS win back the Malcolm contract in 2021 and re-vinyl a 88 into Malcolm colours? Likewise, perhaps DRS could be encourages to name one Debbie the Engine in Stobart vinyl? It is good that the 88s have started the flasks, meaning we shall see their geography spread, it is expected they shall start the Daventry-Purfleet intermodal soon (gauging work started late last year) and the Wentlog would seem rather sensible a route if there are paths available south down the WCML from 2019. 

 

Thus there seems two ways forward, the 88 is tooled and released in the short term - due to the popularity of DRS traction, the batch should sell out - which covered the tooling costs but doesn't not really make a return worth the effort OR medium term - wait until the 88 is a more established locomotive and then tool and release once you can turn it into a profit.

 

Even though I think the 68s are the best modern locomotive we have ever seen modelled. I would only have the need to have one, perhaps two at a push of the 88s. Where as I am building up a small fleet of the 68s. I do not know are other modellers the same, would have one but not five? As for a manufacturer to make a profit, we all need to buy three or more. 

Edited February 10, 2018 by 159220

[Legend]

I suspect the way model companies work these days this would be s complete new tooling . I think Dapol are well suited to do it though as they’ve done a great job with the 68. An 88 could maybe share the same drive train

[YesTor]

Thus there seems two ways forward, the 88 is tooled and released in the short term - due to the popularity of DRS traction, the batch should sell out - which covered the tooling costs but doesn't not really make a return worth the effort OR medium term - wait until the 88 is a more established locomotive and then tool and release once you can turn it into a profit.

 

Even though I think the 68s are the best modern locomotive we have ever seen modelled. I would only have the need to have one, perhaps two at a push of the 88s. Where as I am building up a small fleet of the 68s. I do not know are other modellers the same, would have one but not five? As for a manufacturer to make a profit, we all need to buy three or more. 

 

An educated guess would make me think that the various manufacturers would more likely be falling over each other to license any new prototype locomotive.  It's a bit of a no brainer really:

 

1. New prototype thus completely fresh new model to market
2. No immediate possibility of duplication by other manufacturers
3. New prototype meaning 20 to 30 years ahead of it with all the various changes in livery, ownership, modifications, sub-classes etc that will likely ensue - each change potentially throwing out the possibility of a further new model.

 

So despite the fact that there may only be ten examples in traffic right now in only one livery, by opting for the second option of "wait until the 88 is a more established locomotive and then tool and release", then it will undoubtedly be too late, as by then one of your competitors will have already muscled in on the action.  Take the Class 70 as an example, where Bachmann began tooling of their model before the prototype had even ran on UK rails, and similarly at that time there were a mere six machines in only one livery.  A wise move on Bachmann's part.  A similar story with Hornby and the Class 800, and I'm sure we could all think of many more examples.

 

Often in business you have to operate using foresight and that can sometimes mean taking risks.  For the reasons above I personally cannot see how the Class 88 would be such a risky model.  Sure, it could be a while before there might be what any manufacturer might consider a substantial return on investment, but as already highlighted, it's a model that there will undoubtedly be demand for for the foreseeable future, hopefully in many guises.  Wait around for that 'right moment' when said project could be considered a 'safe' investment and it will undoubtedly be too late, as one of your competitors with more foresight or/and financial clout will have got there first.  And that raises another point, as for any business it is not always foresight that is lacking, but instead it could be lack of funding, which of course is another matter entirely. 

 

Overall though, as the old saying goes, "You snooze, you lose..."

Edited February 10, 2018 by YesTor

[159220]

"You snooze, you lose..."

 

 Interesting comments, but you forgot one critical thing with the modern class 68, 70 and 800. The licensing agreement between the prototype manufacturer and one model manufacturer. The Stadler's, Hitachi's and Bombardier's et al of this modern era allow one model manufacturer and only one. A model manufacturer does not produce a model as we might like it, or they might make a return after a few runs, some years into the mysterious future. They make models to make a profit. Dapol shall do the 88, but in my opinion they would be best spending valuable investment capital in other projects.

 

Also, are you stating model tools are good for another 30 years? Looking at where the market is going, into ultra high detail with added value features. Everyone is re-tooling significantly younger tooling to cater to what we as modellers now demand. Who knows what we shall demand in 10 years time, or what technologies shall exist to modellers in 20 years time. 

[YesTor]

 Interesting comments, but you forgot one critical thing with the modern class 68, 70 and 800. The licensing agreement between the prototype manufacturer and one model manufacturer. The Stadler's, Hitachi's and Bombardier's et al of this modern era allow one model manufacturer and only one.

 

Hmmm, okay, as far as I understand things it is Dapol who have exclusive licensing to produce the Class 68, so working on the assumption that the Class 88 would follow a similar pattern, then I'm not sure what point you are making with the above?  Unless I'm not reading your comment correctly, it sounds as though you are simply reinforcing what I have said already?

 

 

A model manufacturer does not produce a model as we might like it, or they might make a return after a few runs, some years into the mysterious future. They make models to make a profit.

 

Of course manufacturers make models to generate profit.  I'm not quite sure why you seem to be pitching the 88 as this mysteriously 'risky' prospect from a manufacturers standpoint?  In terms of risk I cannot see how the 88 is any different from the 68, 70 or otherwise?  Sure, there are now more liveries for the 68 and 70, but this wasn't the case when those models were first announced. 

 

 

Dapol shall do the 88, but in my opinion they would be best spending valuable investment capital in other projects.

 

The above is a little presumptuous perhaps.  We don't know for sure that "Dapol shall do the 88"...  I sincerely hope that they do (based on the fact that the 68 is superb), however for all we know Bachmann, Hornby, or another contender may already have signed a deal and be busily working on an 88.  Or perhaps DRS are holding back for some unknown reason?  There could be any number of factors as to why no one has announced a model as yet, so at the end of the day it's all pretty much academic at this point in time.

 

 

Also, are you stating model tools are good for another 30 years? Looking at where the market is going, into ultra high detail with added value features. Everyone is re-tooling significantly younger tooling to cater to what we as modellers now demand. Who knows what we shall demand in 10 years time, or what technologies shall exist to modellers in 20 years time. 

 

Not at all, I'd imagine it quite rare for any model to still be cutting edge after three decades, but what we do know is that once a manufacturer has produced one version of a model it seems highly probable (though not always of course) that it will be the same manufacturer that subsequently retools and re-releases further improved versions.  And even if they don't, judging by current trend, most models are going to have at least 10 years production/market life in them (perhaps more), which by any standards should give any manufacturer ample time to recoup investment and turn a profit?  I agree of course that demands, technology etc may change in the future and perhaps faster (or indeed slower) than we might anticipate, but again this seems a rather moot point, as uncertainty due to changes in technology etc will affect any and all models that are introduced by all manufacturers, not just the 88.

Edited February 11, 2018 by YesTor

[159220]

1. a) I understand things it is Dapol who have exclusive licensing to produce the Class 68, so working on the assumption that the Class 88 would follow a similar pattern.

1. b) We don't know for sure that "Dapol shall do the 88"...  I sincerely hope that they do (based on the fact that the 68 is superb), however for all we know Bachmann, Hornby, or another contender may already have signed a deal

 

2. I'm not quite sure why you seem to be pitching the 88 as this mysteriously 'risky' prospect from a manufacturers standpoint?  In terms of risk I cannot see how the 88 is any different from the 68, 70 or otherwise?  Sure, there are now more liveries for the 68 and 70, but this wasn't the case when those models were first announced. 

 

 

1 a & b. If we agree and understand Dapol have the licence agreement from DRS to produce a model of the class 88. I fail to understand why you then say another manufacturer would be producing it. The whole point of modern loco/unit designs is they are licensed by the holder of the design to one singular manufacturer. (Side note. The 68/88 class design is actually copyrighted/trademarked/owned by DRS and not Vossloh/Stadler. If Stadler were to produce a "UK Light" or "UK DualLight" for another FOC, it would have to be of a different design, unless the FOC wanted to pay DRS a royalty for the design...).

 

2. The 68 was in three liveries when confirmed. Both the 68s and 70s were tooled when tooling and manufacturing costs were significantly less. I read recently, Bachmann has been on the record to say they shall no longer commit to the tooling of new products if it has carried only a few liveries. 

 

Please do not mistake me, I want a model of the 88, as the 68 is just superb and as I stated, the best modern model we have currently out on the market. Just, how many of us are going to buy at least five 88s to make the prospect attractive in the short term?

 

DRS are not holding back, they are very keen to see the class 88 modelled. They are very proud of the class and its abilities. 

[cooley_boy]

Of course manufacturers make models to generate profit.  I'm not quite sure why you seem to be pitching the 88 as this mysteriously 'risky' prospect from a manufacturers standpoint?  In terms of risk I cannot see how the 88 is any different from the 68, 70 or otherwise?  Sure, there are now more liveries for the 68 and 70, but this wasn't the case when those models were first announced. 

I agree here. 

Some of the models coming out at the moment are very much a niche project particularly when you consider where the prototypes actually operated in real life. 

For example: 

 

- Adams Radial which was very limited in is operating area. 

 

- APTs which didn't last long (albeit they are a collectors item) 

 

- Oxford Rails War Gun just announced  

 

- Bachmann Class 350 SWT Unit. Only runs on third rail and and now SWT lost the contract to run there.

 

There are more of course and I may be wrong in some of my assumptions with these unit but in comparison to the Class 88 there will be people buying these locos just because they look pretty cool. There are those of us who model modern image that would love the 88's to add to our fleets in recreating the present. Others will buy that just like to model what they see and others still just for the heck of it. In a run of 5000 they will sell out because no one else has them. As we have seen with the 68's. 

 

There is talk of Stadler wanting to sell more into the UK and these units with DRS being a test run / advertising for the other operators. Only time will tell.

[159220]

Some of the models coming out at the moment are very much a niche project particularly when you consider where the prototypes actually operated in real life. 

For example: 

 

- Adams Radial which was very limited in is operating area. 

- APTs which didn't last long (albeit they are a collectors item) 

- Oxford Rails War Gun just announced  

- Bachmann Class 350 SWT Unit. Only runs on third rail and and now SWT lost the contract to run there.

 

- Adams Radial - Steam = Anything steam has a huge interest and market.

- APT - Announced by a serial announcer who has delivered very little from their countless announcements.

- Oxfords War Gun - seems out there, but pre-/interwar period has a huge interest and market. 

- Bachmann Class 450 - The SWT brand lasted 21 years, with the 450 wearing that livery (in service) from 2003 to 2018 (yes still in the livery and branding) - 15 years and there are 127 examples of the class 450. Also, tooling costs already covered from earlier class 350 runs. 

 

Please do not mistake me, I want a model of the 88, as the 68 is just superb and as I stated, the best modern model we have currently out on the market. Just, how many of us are going to buy at least five 88s to make the prospect attractive in the short term?

 

The 88 shall be made in OO and N, most certainly, but I am yet to hear a reasonable argument as to why there is sufficient demand currently to justify the investment.  

 

I shall throw in a question, the Wabtec modified class 73/9. In two liveries, over 11 examples. Geography from Tonbridge to Inverness. But not produced? Why not?

 

There is talk of Stadler wanting to sell more into the UK and these units with DRS being a test run / advertising for the other operators. Only time will tell.

 

The 68/88 class design is actually copyrighted/trademarked/owned by DRS and not Vossloh/Stadler. If Stadler were to produce a "UK Light" or "UK DualLight" for another FOC, it would have to be of a different design, unless the FOC wanted to pay DRS a royalty for the design... 

 

The UKDual that Stadler are promoting is very different from the DRS 88 design. But yes indeed, the class 88 has proven a dual locomotive is more than possible in UK loading gauge. Whether any other FOC can afford a £4 million plus price tag is another matter...

[cooley_boy]

- Adams Radial - Steam = Anything steam has a huge interest and market.

- APT - Announced by a serial announcer who has delivered very little from their countless announcements.

- Oxfords War Gun - seems out there, but pre-/interwar period has a huge interest and market. 

- Bachmann Class 450 - The SWT brand lasted 21 years, with the 450 wearing that livery (in service) from 2003 to 2018 (yes still in the livery and branding) - 15 years and there are 127 examples of the class 450. Also, tooling costs already covered from earlier class 350 runs. 

Sorry I meant APT-E

 

In all these cases though. People will buy them because they are unusual, collectable or just nice to look at. Which, lets be honest, a lot of people will buy for those reasons which is great because those of us that would like these models for our prototypical layouts. The class 68 and 88 would fit into this category. 

 

In thinking about it there is also the Stirling Single.

 

In regards to the Class 73/9 we are actually in the same boat. Dapol made the Class 73 and so it would make logical sense for Dapol to make the modified versions. There are more liveries true but that would make it harder as there is a minimum run needed for each variation. With the class 88 there is only the DRS Livery and then just adding different numbers and names. The class 88s will in time no doubt have the same line coverage very soon a they are doing testing with them on non-electrified routes.

 

Just my thoughts.   

[YesTor]

1 a & b. If we agree and understand Dapol have the licence agreement from DRS to produce a model of the class 88. I fail to understand why you then say another manufacturer would be producing it.

 

Hmmm, precisely, as do we in fact "agree and understand Dapol have the licence agreement from DRS to produce a model of the class 88?"

 

I certainly haven't seen anything published to suggest that Dapol have any such license to produce the 88?  Unless I missed it, although I'm sure there would have been much more said publicly if this were the case, although I am more than happy to be enlightened...?

 

 

 

- APT - Announced by a serial announcer who has delivered very little from their countless announcements.

 

 

With respect, that seems a bit of an unfair dig regarding the APT and said manufacturer which I'm not sure is relevant to the topic.  However, I think what the author of the above comment was trying to say is that there are far more niche models than the 88 that have been produced seemingly successfully, for example Bachmann's LMS 10000/10001 diesel prototypes; the Bullied diesels; the Class 71 & 74, again a very small fleet and only one or two liveries... the list goes on...

 

At the end of the day we can all speculate from now until the cows come home.  I think the danger is to over-analyse these things which results in nothing more than a whole lot of hair-splitting.  Personally I'd be quite surprised if someone doesn't announce an 88 within the next 12 months or so, I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Edited February 13, 2018 by YesTor

[Markwalker67]

Hmmm, precisely, as do we in fact "agree and understand Dapol have the licence agreement from DRS to produce a model of the class 88?"

 

I certainly haven't seen anything published to suggest that Dapol have any such license to produce the 88? Unless I missed it, although I'm sure there would have been much more said publicly if this were the case, although I am more than happy to be enlightened...?

 

 

 

With respect, that seems a bit of an unfair dig regarding the APT and said manufacturer which I'm not sure is relevant to the topic. However, I think what the author of the above comment was trying to say is that there are far more niche models than the 88 that have been produced seemingly successfully, for example Bachmann's LMS 10000/10001 diesel prototypes; the Bullied diesels; the Class 71 & 74, again a very small fleet and only one or two liveries... the list goes on...

 

At the end of the day we can all speculate from now until the cows come home. I think the danger is to over-analyse these things which results in nothing more than a whole lot of hair-splitting. Personally I'd be quite surprised if someone doesn't announce an 88 within the next 12 months or so, I guess we'll have to wait and see.

[Markwalker67]

Hi. Dapol do have the licence to do the Class 88, but when I asked Dapol they were not sure if they were going to do it because it's only in one livery.hope this helps

[ColinK]

You don’t need a big layout or overhead to run a couple. Today’s Sellafield - Heysham was a couple of flasks top & tailed by a pair of 88s running on diesel power.

[frobisher]

I shall throw in a question, the Wabtec modified class 73/9. In two liveries, over 11 examples. Geography from Tonbridge to Inverness. But not produced? Why not?

Because Dapol started down the route of their 73 before the 73/9's had even started to be converted..? They are quite a radical rebuild in many ways. Dapol would be best placed to produce these in the future however, so wait and see.

[classy52]

Yep I would buy all of them as I've done with the 68's and I'm sure there are plenty others out there who would do the same, but yes maybe Dapol if they do have the license are waiting until further liveries are applied to the prototypes to ensure a wider fan base is covered and not just restricted to DRS.

[YesTor]

Hi. Dapol do have the licence to do the Class 88, but when I asked Dapol they were not sure if they were going to do it because it's only in one livery.hope this helps

 

Ahh, fair enough, I wasn't aware of that.  Well I'm sure it won't be too long before the 88s appear in further liveries. 

[159220]

Ah, so I do know what I am talking about. I see. Thank you Markwalker67.

[YesTor]

Ah, so I do know what I am talking about. I see. Thank you Markwalker67.

 

I wasn't suggesting for one moment that you didn't know what you were talking about, it just seemed that a lot of other factors were being dragged into the debate that had questionable relevance.  That's the trouble with some of these discussions in general, in that they have a tendency to become convoluted and over-complex for what is often quite a straightforward topic/question.  Anyway, no offense intended.