Is Minories operationally satisfying?

[Flying Pig]

26 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

P.S. I'm pretty sure that Peco could make a Medium radius single slip with the same connecting geometry as the current Small radius slip. It would interesting to mock one up in Templot.

 

That would indeed be very interesting.  The subject has been discussed on the Peco Bullhead thread starting with this post

 

 

[Dmudriver]

9 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Very believable-looking station you've created there.

 

Hi Nearholmer.

 

Thanks for the compliment.  For information, here's a picture of the real thing, taken from the book "Merseyside Electrics":

 

There was a goods yard where the fire station is being built in this pic.  The trailing crossover is behind the camera.

 

It's a great little layout to operate!!!

 

 

 

Rod

[ejstubbs]

10 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

You can see most of the bit of Liverpool St Met that inspired CJF on NLS Maps, the 1:1056 map being clearest. What confuses slightly is that it also shows the junction and tracks that ran into the GER station, which had gone by the time CJF observed. It was one heck of a cramped junction!

 

Here's a screenshot of the relevant bit of the 1896 1:1056 map (the only one at that scale on the NLS site):

 

 

(Note that the Metropolitan station was called Bishopsgate in those days.)

 

The map only shows trackwork that was visible from above, and there isn't anything there that looks notably Minories-like to me.  Apart from anything else, the Metropolitan line station is primarily a through station, not a terminus, so there is not the same requirement to be able to arrive in and depart from any platform that Minories, being a terminus, tries to cater for.

 

In "60 Plans..." CJF says that Minories was "inspired by" the Met station, which is not quite the same as "based on".  He also says that the bay platform (presumably the one to the south of the running lines in the above map) was used "to turn Aylesbury trains".  Going by the trackwork visible on the map above, that would seem to imply that arriving Aylesbury trains reversed back over the crossover to access the bay.  Alternatively it's possible that there was a facing crossover to the west of the station (and the junction for the GER station) which isn't visible on the map due it it being somewhere under Finsbury Circus (though I tend rather to doubt this).

 

I suspect that a key element of CJF's 'inspiration' might have been the way that Aylesbury trains were hauled in to the bay, and then taken out by another loco which had been stabled on the spur, freeing up the loco at the buffers.  Again, in "60 Plans" he says: "in the days of the Met. electric loco-hauled trains...one of those lovely Bo-Bo's [sic] sat permanently in the loco spur".  (I'd have thought that the fact that the loco spur is open to the sky would have been nigh-on essential in steam days - assuming traffic was worked the same way.)

 

I reckon that CJF was inspired much more by the method of working terminating trains at that station, rather than the actual track layout.  He does say that "After several attempts to turn it in to a compact terminus, all of which ended up hopelessly entangled, I doodled a design incorporating a pair of crossovers which clicked..."  I'd take that as further evidence that the actual track layout at the Met station wasn't a key element of his inspiration.  It sounds as if he more or less abandoned attempts to replicate the actual Met layout, and came up with his own self-inspired solution to modelling the train operations that he found so inspiring.

[57xx]

2 hours ago, Harlequin said:

Small Daws Lane update:

Corrected points labelling and I managed to squeeze in a Large Right to ease the reverse curve inbound to Platform 3.

 

 

 

Just out of curiosity (and excuse me if I missed it elsewhere), what is the bit of track in by the signal box for?

[RJS1977]

It allows a train to leave Platform 1 whilst another train is arriving in Platform 2.

 

[ejstubbs]

On 12/02/2018 at 13:00, Dr Gerbil-Fritters said:

I've never liked the complex curves in the Minories plan, and even less that the straight leg of the main line leads into a dead end loco bay...

 

far better was this later version by CJF for the same footprint, but much more realistic...

 

That's from the "PSL Book of Model Railway Track Plans".  Plan 46 in that book is called Bishopsgate, and is based directly on the Metropolitan station "in steam days", including the junction to the GER station.  It does include a facing crossover to access the bay from the up/eastbound line, which isn't visible on the OS map:

 

 

(Apologies for the rubbish scan.)

 

And here is a 1951 1:1250 OS map of Liverpool Street showing the track layout as it was then:

 

 

Note that the junction to the GER station has gone, but there is now direct access to the bay from the up/eastbound line.  I assume that the crossing over the down/westbound line must have been a single slip, to give access to the down/westbound line from the bay.  (CJF does say in the PSL book that he made it a double slip "to allow for more complicated working").

 

This impressive diagram of the Metropolitan line in 1933 shows the same layout at Liverpool Street (bottom right of the diagram, just before Aldgate).  It would still be interesting to know, when the junction to the GER station was still in place, whether there was a facing crossover to the west of that junction, or up/eastbound terminating trains really did access the bay by reversing on to the down/westbound line.

Edited February 9, 2019 by ejstubbs

[jamespetts]

1 minute ago, 57xx said:

 

Just out of curiosity (and excuse me if I missed it elsewhere), what is the bit of track in by the signal box for?

 

Could it be to allow parallel movements into and out of platforms 1 and 2 at the same time?

 

urs ago, DavidCBroad said:

You have a massive amount of non scenic fiddle area compared to the scenic part,  Its not ideal as you will fairly rapidly run out of places to add scenic features, also the operation is pretty binary.   If I was using this space and this basic station design I would go for more visible storage, and if steam days a small loco depot /sub shed etc and minimise the kick back headshunts, See doodle     I remember the "Borchester" layouts of Frank Dwyer (?) had just one in and one out kick back for his stabling sidings.  Actually I would probably use a "Hockey stick traverser" to form the kickback and save a shed load of points and length

 

An interesting thought.

 

One problem with the visible storage on the left of the plan is that this incorporates the 600mm radius curves intended to be reserved for non-scenic areas, removing the 2,000mm radius specification from the scenic areas. As noted originally, there was an idea to have a small locomotive shed in the area in which you have put one.

 

An interesting question is what sort of facilities that such an urban terminus might have and how they would be used. The various features that we have so far in some of the various plans on this thread are:

 

1. a single locomotive spur (from the original Minories);
2. multiple locomotive spurs (my plan - explanation below);
3. milk/parcels depots (Phil's plan);
4. goods docks (the Southern layout whose name escapes my memory at present);
5. carriage sidings/headshunts (Phil's plan, copied in my plan);
6. small goods yards (Windsor & Eaton Riverside and one possible development of my plan);
7. an engine shed; and
8. a turntable.

The presence or absence of each of these features subtly changes not only the practicalities of operation but also the kind of location that is intended to be modelled and the basic underlying schedule.

 

The single locomotive spur implies kickback working for locomotive hauled trains; omitting this means that the terminus is used only by multiple units, unless one imagines the spur off-scene and runs in locomotives from the fiddle yards.

 

Multiple locomotive spurs, as in my plan, imagines the possibility of multiple railway companies' trains terminating at the station and therefore needing to stable multiple types of locomotives. The inspiration for my plan was New Cross in the 1880s, in which trains of the LBSCR, GER and Metropolitan would all terminate having traversed the East London Railway's line under the Thames tunnel. New Cross also had a through station on the Brighton main line, but one can imagine that as being at a higher level and thus hidden by the retaining wall back-scene.

 

The milk/parcels depot, goods dock and goods yard options all imply either a slightly larger location or a less central urban location than Bishopsgate/Liverpool Street (such as Windsor). Quite where the line might be drawn is an interesting question: central urban (Liverpool Street) would probably not have had one; outer suburban (Windsor & Eaton Riverside) did have one; but what about inner suburban (New Cross, Hammersmith, Harlow, Enfield, Chingford, etc.)? This might also imply a much less intensive off-peak service so as to allow goods shunting; perhaps only two trains per hour off peak.

 

The engine shed again implies a location that is not central London, although Hammersmith currently has multiple unit sidings, so this does allow at least for inner suburban if not city centre. The turntable implies that tender engines at least sometimes use the line, which suggests longer distance trains; perhaps only the goods trains would sometimes be hauled by an 0-6-0 tender engine in the goods yard versions of the plan, but there might be some outer suburban permutations (as in Windsor & Eaton, which did have a turntable according to the plans posted here) in which tender engines at least occasionally hauled passenger trains (race specials to Windsor, perhaps?). It is again an interesting question whether an inner suburban (but not city centre) location might have had such a facility.

 

Hammersmith is an interesting location in several respects. There was at one point a second terminus Hammersmith station, Hammersmith & Chiswick, shown in this 1896 map: it had three platforms, a small goods shed, a single line approach (a spur from a through line) through a cutting and an engine shed near the junction with the main line. There was a single locomotive spur near the station itself.

 

The main terminus station at Hammersmith, shown here had four platforms, a headshunt/carriage siding alongside one of those platforms, a carriage shed as well as possibly locomotive facilities and a junction with another line just beyond the station throat (although a model might omit this latter feature, imagining it to be beyond the scenic break).

 

Somebody mentioned Aldgate: this is an interesting location indeed, although this would require significantly more fiddle yard space, as it is a through station with a complex triangle junction. Moorgate is another potentially interesting city centre terminus for suburban services, but this is a larger station, with (pre-closure of the Thameslink spur) a six platform station (two of which are through lines) coming from a four track line on the west, going into a two track line on the east.

 

Another inner suburban station of interest is North Woolwich, shown here, with the intriguing feature of a turntable in the middle of two of the three platforms (before it was destroyed by enemy action in the Second World War and never rebuilt). It also seems to have had three platforms and a small goods yard. However, the service pattern here was somewhat less intensive than some of the city centre locations: although there were 10 minute interval services at the peak, off peak services were hourly.

[Nearholmer]

Overall, the pre-electrification station layouts on the Metropolitan and District railways are sadly neglected as inspiration for models.

 

There were plenty of very model-railway-like terminating points, which were operated at quite astonishing intensities, all with steam locos, under semaphore block signalling, although the approach to clearing-points beyond signals seems to have been very liberal compared with later practice - trains might only be separated by the thickness of a signal-post in some places. Even now, the TfL sides of stations like Wimbledon, Richmond and Ealing Broadway are very good prototypes for Minories-style termini, much better than most NR sites really, although Watford Junction (DC-side) deserves a mention.

 

Milk docks: they were very much a feature of inner-urban places before 'tankerisation' of milk transport in the 1930s, because milk arrived in town in churns carried in well- ventilated vans, usually tacked onto passenger trains, and had to be unloaded without impeding the main passenger platforms. King's Cross station Milk Dock is probably the best known, but there were plenty of others, some totally separate (at St Pancras the milk dock also handled fish and was in the goods area), some shared with parcels traffic (for example Paddington IIRC) . Whether to include one on a model is largely a question of the period in which things are set, and the space available. 1930s onwards, milk arrived in tank-wagons, the unloading of which was discussed above.

Edited February 9, 2019 by Nearholmer

[kevinlms]

On 08/02/2019 at 20:19, Karhedron said:

 

You don't have to go back too far in time to get a more interesting model. IIRC it was rationalised circa 1990 so even in NSE times you could still have 3 platform faces.

 

 

If you go back to the banger-blue era you get 3 platform faces as well as a modest goods yard. The transition era would be interesting with green electrics on passenger services and steam on the goods.

 

 

 

Here is an older shot showing the view across the Thames.

 

Look, you can see her waving! She looks just as young, as what's currently on stamps, coins etc.

[Pacific231G]

1 hour ago, jamespetts said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hammersmith is an interesting location in several respects. There was at one point a second terminus Hammersmith station, Hammersmith & Chiswick, shown in this 1896 map: it had three platforms, a small goods shed, a single line approach (a spur from a through line) through a cutting and an engine shed near the junction with the main line. There was a single locomotive spur near the station itself.

 

The main terminus station at Hammersmith, shown here had four platforms, a headshunt/carriage siding alongside one of those platforms, a carriage shed as well as possibly locomotive facilities and a junction with another line just beyond the station throat (although a model might omit this latter feature, imagining it to be beyond the scenic break).

 

 

Hi James

Hammersmith and the lines and former lines in that area are definitely interesting. 

The site of the North & South Western Junction Railway's  branch terminus, Hammersmith and Chiswick,  with some of its buildings used to be qute visible from the District Line trains I once commuted on.The actual station has now gone without trace having been redeveloped for housing though the line's route, a large horseshoe is still easily traced. I'm pretty sure it only ever had one platform  and that's confirmed here

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/h/hammersmith_and_chicwick/

(their mispelling of chiswick in the URL)

It was a rather marginal operation throughout its life with passenger trains rarely been more than one coach, either a "through" coach attached to the N&SWJR trains between Fenchurch St. and Kew or later a railmotor that shuttled between there and S. Acton station. 

 

On the 1897 map I could only count two  platforms at the Met/GW terminus in Hammersmith (one fewer than now) The line immediately to the west of the "up" side platform is part of the coal depot presumably behind the train shed wall. This doesn't join the running lines until the trapped line from the coal depot. Interestingly though there seems to have been a loco shed (but no TT) immediately to the east of the "down" platform. By the next series OS 25 inch series 1913  ( https://maps.nls.uk/view/103313288 )    that's all gone and the third platform face had been added (with electrification?) 

 

OT but Looking at these maps has cleared up something I've been wondering  about ever since using the footbridge between the two platforms at Hamemrsmith (H&C) to get some photos during steam on the Met,  Why on earth was there a footbridge at the opposite end  of the platforms  from the ticket barriers serving no obviously useful purpose.  I now know that it provided the link to the LSWR's Hammersmith station on their line from  Kensington-Addison road (now Olympia) to Richmond. That doesn't explain why it's still open but I assume that  is to provide a second escape route from the platforms. Grandfather rights mean that wouldnt have to be built if an existing station didn't have such an escape route but can't be removed if it already exists . Because they're completely rebuilding Ealing Broadway station, NR have had to buiid a footbridge between the three main line platforms with an emergency exit onto an alley from the Uxbridge Road. It doesn't though extend to the three Underground platforms (five platform faces) which would actually have made it useful to passengers customers. 

 

 

[Harlequin]

8 hours ago, RJS1977 said:

It allows a train to leave Platform 1 whilst another train is arriving in Platform 2.

 

Indeed - I missed that route at first and it was pointed out by The Stationmaster.

 

The addition of that route from platform 1 to the outbound connection means that a simple rule holds true: When a train is arriving at any platform another can be simultaneously departing from any platform with a lower number. That is to say:

    If inbound movement destination == platform P Then all outbound routes from 1 to P-1 are available

    And

    If outbound movement origin == platform Q Then all inbound routes from Q+1 to N are available

    Where N is the number of platforms (4 in this case)

Edited February 9, 2019 by Harlequin

[jamespetts]

Interesting - Hammersmith & Chiswick seems to have been a rather non-Minories style of urban terminus, in that case, with run-around rather than kickback working. North Woolwich also, I believe, had run-around working. Urban termini with run-around working (i.e. the smaller and less important urban and sub-urban termini) are probably also viable modelling locations if one does not mind the fact that the line being modelled would in reality have had rather infrequent traffic.

 

Aside from North Woolwich and Hammersmith & Chiswick, other potentially interesting urban termini for modellers who are too starved of space even for a Minories style layout (or who would simply prefer to model a more minor location) would, I believe, include stations such as Ongar (before the Central Line took over), Shoreditch, South Acton and Alexandra Palace, a model of the latter of which I think would be an excellent thing to be exhibited at the London Festival of Railway Modelling.

[Nearholmer]

Try North Greenwich, and Blackwall, as well, if, like me, you favour really minimalistic inner-suburban termini. They both quickly acquired the vital 'seedy and run-down' character too.

 

A late survivor of this breed was, of course, Shoreditch, the alleyway outside, the booking hall, the stairs, and platform stuck in a pre-WW1 time-warp right up until it closed.

 

These places didn't necessarily have infrequent services either: Blackwall had one train evert 20 minutes until it closed, I think, and it had services from both the GER and NLR for a period in the latter part of C19th. and, South Acton had a pretty frequent, if utterly boring, service from Acton Town ..... a horizontal lift, really.

 

Greenwich Park was another 'something of nothing' station in a very cramped location.

 

If you have a look at my thread, you can see how I've tried to capture the essence of these sorts of places in old-fashioned 0 gauge.

[Foulounoux]

I have multiple version of minories and Majories (my version of Minories with extra tracks) as plans.  But I'm also drawn to the right hand layout of Newcastle as per photo 

 

a trailing crossover over needs to be in place to get from Lh platform to the outbound line 

 

 

 

Edited February 9, 2019 by Foulounoux

[jcm@gwr]

2 hours ago, jamespetts said:

Alexandra Palace, a model of the latter of which I think would be an excellent thing to be exhibited at the London Festival of Railway Modelling.

 

I think you might be cutting it a bit fine for this year though! 

[Zomboid]

8 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Overall, the pre-electrification station layouts on the Metropolitan and District railways are sadly neglected as inspiration for models.

 

There were plenty of very model-railway-like terminating points, which were operated at quite astonishing intensities, all with steam locos, under semaphore block signalling, although the approach to clearing-points beyond signals seems to have been very liberal compared with later practice - trains might only be separated by the thickness of a signal-post in some places. Even now, the TfL sides of stations like Wimbledon, Richmond and Ealing Broadway are very good prototypes for Minories-style termini, much better than most NR sites really, although Watford Junction (DC-side) deserves a mention.

It's nothing like Minories (being mostly scissors based), but Uxbridge presently has an interesting layout. (Pretty much the same as Cockfosters).

[Nearholmer]

Another LT offering:

 

Ealing Broadway(District), during the steam/electric transition, with through trains of LT&SR stock, hauled by pairs of box-cab electric locos.

 

The steam-era version of the station only had two platforms, with a scissors at the throat and a scissors loco-release near the buffers, plus a really complicated loco-stabling area adjacent the throat.

 

For the electrification the (very short) platforms were lengthened, a third platform added outside the train-shed, stabling sidings added near the throat, and the throat itself was made seriously complex, using scissors and double-slips. The signals were superb too. with four-rail electrification, this lot would keep a track enthusiast happy for years!

 

photo here https://www.ltmuseum.co.uk/collections/collections-online/photographs/item/1998-86945?&apiurl=aHR0cHM6Ly9hcGkubHRtdXNldW0uY28udWsvcGhvdG9ncmFwaHM/c2hvcnQ9MSZza2lwPTAmbGltaXQ9NDgmcT1lYWxpbmcrYnJvYWR3YXk=&searchpage=Y29sbGVjdGlvbnMvY29sbGVjdGlvbnMtb25saW5lL3Bob3RvZ3JhcGhzL3BhZ2UvMT8mcT1lYWxpbmcrYnJvYWR3YXk=

[jamespetts]

Ealing Broadway is definitely an interesting choice, the only issue being the proximity to the Great Western Mainline and how to get around having to model a very major mainline on top of the Underground station.

 

Other interesting stations with this issue include Wimbledon and Richmond.

[Zomboid]

But you don't have to model the GWML or SWML. Even if you're actually modelling the underground the main lines can be off scene, or if not you can just use the track plan and pretend that the Wimbledon configuration was actually built in Worthing, or similar.

[jamespetts]

15 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

But you don't have to model the GWML or SWML. Even if you're actually modelling the underground the main lines can be off scene, or if not you can just use the track plan and pretend that the Wimbledon configuration was actually built in Worthing, or similar.

 

This is true - one could perhaps have a painted backscene with the rest of the station or similar, although that might not look ideal.

[Nearholmer]

Simply build the layout so that your viewpoint is that of a passenger on a train passing on the GWR Up Local.

 

It had never occurred to me that anyone would do otherwise, which shows my lack of imagination!

[TomJ]

Every time I’ve seen a Minories layout, either on here or in the flesh, I’ve always thought ‘I want one of those’. So something about it must really appeal. 

 

I like the the idea of minimising stock handling so as I model in N two options seems a possibility. One would be to have a standard minories with a reversing loop as fiddle yard. So trains leave, then later return - engines can be sent round the loop as an off stage turntable?

 

The other idea is to have Minories as a branch off a double track Mainline continuous run- either alongside (like Birmingham Moor Street or even Ealing, Richmond if you added platforms to the Mainline) or above it? Again a reversing loop somewhere could return trains. This way you could shunt trains in Minories whilst Mainline trains wizz by.

 

I quite like the look of the Liverpool Street Met with a bay platform but it’s not really a terminus so not sure how it’ll work for shunting, parcels etc. 

 

Ideas, ideas, ideas.....

 

 

 

[TomJ]

Actually looking at it again im

not sure that ‘Bishopgate - Something in the City’ plan works as well is it could.  The junction/reversing loop is the wrong way round, ideally you’d want a train to be able to leave the bay then eventually return to it. As it is it allows a train to change direction just once. 

 

It it would take a lot more space to change round but could make for an interesting plan of you could 

[jamespetts]

Nearholmer - yes, that could work quite well. I should have thought of that.

 

TomJ - another way to minimise stock handling is simply to have kickback working in the fiddle yards as well as in the station. This is perhaps especially suited to an automated or semi-automated layout in which there can be no stock handling at all during normal operation.

[ejstubbs]

1 hour ago, TomJ said:

not sure that ‘Bishopgate - Something in the City’ plan works as well is it could.  The junction/reversing loop is the wrong way round

 

It's the way round that it was at the actual Liverpool Street Metropolitan station, more or less, per the maps in my posts yesterday morning and lunchtime.  I agree that the layout as drawn has limitations, but I think you'd need to blame the Met and the GER for that!  I think CJF's idea was that the station would be the scenic part of the model, with everything else being off-scene.  Hence the sizeable fiddle yard with the crossover between the two running lines.  Not very space efficient, though.

 

In the book CJF does say:  The lines shown are for exhibition use, and demonstrate how easily one can produce a layout where over 60 per cent of the tracks are 'off-stage'.  (My emphasis.)