Is Minories operationally satisfying?

[jamespetts]

2 minutes ago, Guy Rixon said:

Also Mansion House, which would make an interesting model with its intense timetable, multi-company service and ultra-tight curves. But one would have to cut away the ground and buildings over to see anything. 

 

Interesting. Do you happen to know much about the timetable for Mansion House? It was, I think, all electric after circa 1905?

[Lacathedrale]

As an aside, Maybank (talked about earlier in this thread) is a right pig to model in finer standards than the tinplate-esque geometry of the 1930's - 6'6" in EM/P4, 8' in S and 12' in O-fine!

 

 

 

The primary issue is the minimum radius of the crossover that leads through the diamonds/slips - it might be possible to further streamline it with a more aggressive curve...

 

Edited May 20, 2020 by Lacathedrale

[Guy Rixon]

17 minutes ago, jamespetts said:

 

Interesting. Do you happen to know much about the timetable for Mansion House? It was, I think, all electric after circa 1905?

I don't have a WTT. The steam services were MDR (inner circle and branches), Met. (inner circle), GWR (middle circle), LNWR (outer circle) and LTSR (Whitechapel and Bow stock with MDR locos, IIRC, unless things went really sideways, when LTSR locos helped out). From electrification of the inner circle in 1905, all public services were electric with the middle circle excluded and the outer circle worked by MDR electric locos. I don't remember exactly what happened to the LTSR contribution then, but probably some of the MDR-pattern EMUs were jointly owned. C.1911 the LTSR were back with through trains of modern stock hauled by the MDR electric locos. The outer circle was cut back to Earl's court c.1907 and killed completely in 1908. C.1909, the MDR pulled out of inner-circle working and left it to the Met.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

I've been doing a bit of research into small/medium sized termini track layouts recently. A lot had the arrangement where one couldn't arrive/depart from all platforms. Consequently there was the need to do a bit of shunting to get stock from one road to another. Often this was the result of railway companies having a dislike of facing points. It was usually most common to be able to depart directly from all platforms (as you could have a trailing crossover in the station throat), than to be able to arrive directly in them all.

For a model railway, especially if operated just by one person, I'd say less is more. Otherwise one just gets trains directly arriving and departing, leading to things getting a bit boring.

[Pacific231G]

9 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

There is a good one called Manston, I think, themed around the idea of an international airport at Manston in Thanet, but that wasn't the one I was thinking of, which has a more urban feel to it.

Are you thinking of Peter North's OO Aerodrome  Park? I saw it at Stevenage in January and liked it but it's actually a very small station wih a single platform. The layout also has a very ingenious fiddle yard arrangement.

 

 

The only thing wrong with an airport terminus in any but the modern era is that were incredibly unusual. Until Stansted in 1991, Manchester in 1993, and Heathrow in 1998 I don't think there had been any in the UK though Heathrow got the Picadilly Line in 1977 and Newcastle the Metro extension in 1991.

Even airports with a passenger railway running alongside them didn't generally get a rail link until fairly recently such as Birmingham in 1976 and Southend not until 2011 but giving airports a rail connection simply not seen as relevant.

 

This always seemed strange to me but I think it was because Civil aviation saw itself as part of the modern world whilst railways were seen as ' yesterday's' transport. Airline passengers, being generally from the wealthier end of society (or travelling on business)  would arrive by car, taxi, or airline coach so why would they need a railway station. The two exceptions were Gatwick, which at 27 miles from London was a bit far for a taxi (and who'd want to travel by airline coach through the whole of South London, Surrey and part of Sussex) so had a railway station from the start and Southampton that got its station in 1966, possibly because there were enough passengers travelling there to use its services to the Channel Islands. 

There may have been others but the only early airport terminus I can think of was at Le Touquet where the line, after originally ending at the aerodome boundary where there was a special Aerogare (and a 150m accompanied walk to the aircraft) eventually crossed a taxiway and ran across the apron before reaching a simple station alongside the main terminal. That though was built for a specific service- the Silver Arrow that connnected London Victoria with Paris Nord via Gatwick and  Le Touquet between 1961 and 1980.   

 

Edited May 20, 2020 by Pacific231G

[Nearholmer]

That’s the one!

 

I also saw it most recently at Stevenage, an exhibition that seems from another world, now that the dreaded is here.

 

The SR was very into creating a London airport and bought land, an I think started building a station (one was certainly designed) near where the Gravesend West branch diverged from the mainline beyond Swanley, but the whole thing fizzled out in about 1938. The details are in the railway diaries of Julian Amery, who was the SR’s Director appointee on all of its non-Railway ventures.

 

The SR already had services direct from Victoria, where there was a link from the London Air Terminal (now the national audit office building) to the platform to the coastal termini of the Empire Flying Boats.

Edited May 20, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Siberian Snooper]

The airport terminal building certainly has the '30s art deco style.

[Dagworth]

1 hour ago, Pacific231G said:

 

That's ingenious!

 

Andi

[roythebus]

Ingenious but not the first. I built a small German layout in the 1980s and it was shown at a show at Hemel Hempstead with a "fiddle yard" consisting of 3 return loops and a couple o sidings in the middle.

 

I remember speaking with Cyril Freezer in the early 1980s and he admitted that Minories was impractical as on the prototype the loco spur(s) would have faced the platforms to save n engine moves at a busy station. He put them the other way to make things more interesting to operate.

 

[Pacific231G]

3 hours ago, roythebus said:

Ingenious but not the first. I built a small German layout in the 1980s and it was shown at a show at Hemel Hempstead with a "fiddle yard" consisting of 3 return loops and a couple o sidings in the middle.

 

I remember speaking with Cyril Freezer in the early 1980s and he admitted that Minories was impractical as on the prototype the loco spur(s) would have faced the platforms to save n engine moves at a busy station. He put them the other way to make things more interesting to operate.

 

Hi Roy

That's not a return loop. The line curves in from the left but ends as a blind headshunt for the  five storage sidings. So far as I can recall the whole thing was on a single board but I can't remember the exact size.

 

I also discussed Minories with CJF at some length at one of the Chatham dockyard shows but we mostly discussed the positon of the goods yard- he preferred the kickback version he used in his later versions but thought it should also include a short siding for brake vans.

The position of the loco spur in Minories isn't entirely improbable if you assume a very constrained site.  The old Bastille terminus in Paris had a small three road loco shed and coaling platform adjoining the train shed and locos coming from there had to go out onto the running lines and back to reach the platforms. Immediately after the very compressed throat pointwork the double track line was on a viaduct about a mile long so there would have been no room for a  loco spur facing the platforms.  Until its final few years, when push-pull working was introduced, Bastille was operated entirely by locos turning over to take out the next but three departures after bringing in an arriving train (or ECS movement)

[DCB]

9 hours ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

I've been doing a bit of research into small/medium sized termini track layouts recently. A lot had the arrangement where one couldn't arrive/depart from all platforms. Consequently there was the need to do a bit of shunting to get stock from one road to another. Often this was the result of railway companies having a dislike of facing points. It was usually most common to be able to depart directly from all platforms (as you could have a trailing crossover in the station throat), than to be able to arrive directly in them all.

For a model railway, especially if operated just by one person, I'd say less is more. Otherwise one just gets trains directly arriving and departing, leading to things getting a bit boring.

 

 That  is what I found.  The dead end stations where arrivals were possible at all platforms were often the ones where many trains did not terminate, Bath Green Park and Swansea (High St ?)  but had a loco attached to the back and went out again with a big percentage of the passengers still aboard. There is no reason the original Minories can't be operated this way,  The main deficiency is the lack of a run round loop for when a pilot is not available. but that can easily be added.   The UK station I find fascinating was Moorgate where LMS and LNER had one platform and one loco spur each and operated every train with a turnback loco.

I found some operating instructions for Merthyr which said trains could arrive at platforms 1 and 2  and if two trains were to arrive the the first could arrive at platform 1 and the second could arrive at platform 2 but if three were arriving the loco from the first had to run round and push the stock clear of the crossover to platform 2 before the second train arrived and pull it out and into the (Carriage) sidings before the third train arrived which would use platform one.

Edited May 21, 2020 by DavidCBroad

[Pacific231G]

On 19/05/2020 at 19:01, Nearholmer said:

There’s actually quite a bit of Minories-esque inspiration to be found at London suburban termini: the District Railway sides at Wimbledon, Richmond, and Acton; Watford Junction; Caterham etc etc.

 

They tended to get electric traction fairly early, because of the density of traffic, so for operational intensity mixed with interesting locos possibly best done pre-grouping.

 

Watford cWW1 would be very interesting, because it served a little hinterland of branch-lines and industrial areas, so there must have been a fair bit of goods traffic across the throat of the suburban side. I’m not sure exactly when the ‘DC Lines’ north of Harrow we’re finished, and whether they were electrified from the outset - I think not, so possibly a ‘steam window’ at this period.

There is a very nice LT based layout, 'Horn Lane', by Jeff Pitt, that uses the Minories plan with a fourth platform. I've seen it two or three times but these photos were taken at the Beaconsfield show in 2012,  The Minories throat uses Peco small radius points which look absurd under main line stock but fine in this context. 

 

Horn Lane itself It's very much based  on the LT side of Ealing Broadway, including the original Metropolitan Railway building  but with only two Met platforms (Ealing has three) as well as two tube platforms.

The layout as a whole is is an L shaped out and back with a burrowing junction just beyond the Horn Lane throat to separate sub surface and tube lines

There are separate return loops (one on top of the other as I recall)  for sub-surface and tube. The subsurface return is double track allowing  "Newgate" station to have both platforms while the tube return is a simple balloon as only one platform of the underground "Pitt Street" station is seen. 

 

There is a short double ended siding on the outside of the sub surface return loop that I think enables an engineer's train to be inflltrated.

 

Using a return loop was of course one of Cyril  Freezer's  suggestions in the original Minories article on the basis that one suburban train is very like another and you wouidn't need very many to give yourself a challenging intensive operation using turnover locos.

 

Horn Lane is the most extensive LT  layout I've seen and though it's not a theme that particularly appeals to me, (I endure rather than enjoy the Underground even though it is an engineering marvel) this model  not only captures its atmosphere well but also includes three different examples of the Underground's very fine and characteristic architecture  as well as some very nice London street scenes.

Edited March 19, 2021 by Pacific231G

[RJS1977]

Just had a bit of a play in SCARM - Minories in 6'x 4' - well, almost - 6' 1 1/2" to be precise!

 

[Nearholmer]

Back to the SR airport plan: the station that was half-built was at Lullingstone, and it was to have a branch to the airport station proper, which I think was going to be on a single-track balloon loop. Abandoned in 1938, ostensibly because the SR couldn’t see a way of making it all pay as a result of complexities around who owned shares in which airlines.

 

It was Leo, not Julian, Amery who was the SR director, and he was on the boards of several German firms as well as oodles of British ones, and was a mega-opponent of appeasment, so I surmise that he was convinced that war was coming, and could see commercial aviation being a bad investment in the short-term.

 

 

Edited May 22, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Pacific231G]

On 22/05/2020 at 17:31, Pacific231G said:

 

Horn Lane is the most extensive LT  layout I've seen and though it's not a theme that particularly appeals to me, (I endure rather than enjoy the Underground even though it is an engineering marvel) this model  not only captures its atmosphere well but also includes three different examples of the Underground's very fine and characteristic architecture  as well as some very nice London street scenes.

Updated

There seems to be some interest in this layout so here are some more of the photos I took at Beaconsfield in October 2012. I'm pretty sure that was its last exhibition outing and I don't know whether the layout still exists. I'd seen it  twice before, at Northolt in 2006 and at the London Transport Museum Depot's model railways show  in 2008 but understand that it was only ever exhibited four times, the other being at Amersham in April 2012 .

It was/is essentially a home layout, but one built for transportability,  and you can see from the control panel markings that it was designed for front operation. Though the trackplan is essentially quite simple, the layout looks far more complex, reflecting the busyness of a number of places on the London Underground. The double track return loop on the sub-surface line was quite interesting as it enabled a double track through station to be built within it giving a reason for trains to stop while the polarity was reversed. I also liked the cut away of the deep tube station which would have served the same purpose. With those I've aready posted I think these images cover the  layout pretty well.  

 

Most of the layout as seen from the roof of the Horn Lane station building

 

A closer view of the flying junction with the deep level tube station building just in view. I liked the blind tunnel mouth at the end of the Met. stock siding, a suggestion of the LT "new works" extensions that never happened.

 

The sub-surface double junction is behind the road with the tube platform below and the end of Newgate Station .

 

 

 

Newgate station reminds me of Park Royal though that's on the Picadilly

 

This street scene with cinema and two pubs covers most of the return loops

 

The loop end of Newgate station

 

Pitt Street tube station neatly covering the join between two boards

 

 

and the other end of Pitt Street's escalators

 

 

and what lies behind the backscene. I think that as a home layout the two points may have accessed storage sidings.

I've reached the 10Mb limit so I'll pit a few more images in a separate post.

Edited May 25, 2020 by Pacific231G

[Pacific231G]

More Horn Lane

 

At the risk of going OT, these images should fill in any gaps. It's certainly a unique development of the Minories theme. The first time I saw this layout I think there was a train of Met loco hauled stock for Sarah Siddons to take over though that would imply that Horn Lane was a reversing junction for the Met.

 

If you know Ealing Broadway you'll recognise the old Met station building  a short distance from the oriignal  GWR station. Though it's all shopfronts now, the original train shed is still behind and below this building though the stairs up have gone and the three District Line platforms are now accessed from a single booking hall for those, the Central Line and the GW main line.

.

The very familiar Minories throat though with three way point to give a fourth platform and the start of the flying junction immediately beyond it

Working along to the start of the flying junction and the end of the stock siding for the tube platforms

 

The rest of the flying junction and the stock siding for the Met platforms

 

Pitt Street tube station is actually built over the Met lines but tha's not too obvious

 

The double junction for the Met return loops, the wall at the left is  Pitt Street station

 

Just beyond Newgate station with the return loops under a typical London street scene

 

And finally, a nicely observed vignette (In normal times you can still see this scene once a week in Oxfordshire as the Hook Norton Brewery dray delivers beer to its three local pubs)

Edited May 23, 2020 by Pacific231G

[St Enodoc]

5 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

 

 

I don't think I've ever seen the SuperQuick low-relief cinema used at an angle like that before. Very effective.

[Joseph_Pestell]

What a great layout that is. I hope that it is still in existence and being enjoyed by someone. Mostly commercial kit buildings but used so well.

[Nearholmer]

Thoroughly agree. It captures its subject very, very well indeed - not hi-fi accurate in every respect, but the character is all there.

 

Interesting how having ‘cameo’ scenes doesn’t look out of place here, because West London is like that.

 

What is going on outside the Railway Tavern? Is it drunk and disorderly behaviour??

[t-b-g]

Many thanks for the photos of Horns Lane.

 

Minories on steroids, yet still keeping true to the concept for the terminus. I like that very much.

 

Not my era, or area of interest and not my modelling style either but a fascinating layout and perhaps the most developed Minories I have seen in terms of going beyond the terminus.

[Pacific231G]

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Thoroughly agree. It captures its subject very, very well indeed - not hi-fi accurate in every respect, but the character is all there.

 

Interesting how having ‘cameo’ scenes doesn’t look out of place here, because West London is like that.

 

What is going on outside the Railway Tavern? Is it drunk and disorderly behaviour??

I'd say so

[2750Papyrus]

That has to be the most interesting scenic treatment I've seen of the Minories concept.

[Harlequin]

2 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

I'd say so

 

There's a whole new product line for Modelu!

 

The scanning process would be, erm, "interesting"...

 

Edited May 23, 2020 by Harlequin

[Pacific231G]

On 23/05/2020 at 01:05, Pacific231G said:

and what lies behind the backscene. I think that as a home layout the two points may have accessed storage sidings.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm curious about the overall size of Horn Lane but omitted to make a note of it when I saw it . Would anyone care to estimate the radius of these return loops. For a home layout they could provide a way of having a far longer terminus along one wall of a room by having the storage sidings behind the station.

If you're not bored to death with my photos of this layout I've just found some more  I took at the Northolt show in 2006 and the LT Museum Depot model railway show in 2008.

In 2006 the return loop was slightly different with no points but one of my photos I've just found confirms that the sub surface and tube returns were coaxial

 

The loco hauled stock was running at the LT Museum in 2008 and the loco simply ran round using the crossover. There would have been scope for alternating a steam and electric  loco but this wasn't done so I think we have to assume that Horn Lane wasn't the changeover point but simply the inner terminus of loco hauled services  .

These two  images from 2008 simply show the Newgate junction set up a bit more clearly

while this one shows the overall building layout for Newgate

 

Finally, a clearer view of the controls with electric pencil point control and a single controller though I think there must be some degree of automatic signalling.

I don't know if Horn Lane has ever appeared in any magazine but I'd very much like to see the article if it has.

Edited May 24, 2020 by Pacific231G

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

Not much more than 18" I would say... I'd like to use a similar idea, but need to use a minimum 24" radius which needs a 5' x 5' blob at least... ideally I would use a minimum 30" radius which would require another shed entirely!