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Is Minories operationally satisfying?


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18 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Windsor and Eton Riverside?

 

Very nice station in all sorts of ways, although perhaps a bit too rationalised for modelling purposes these days.

Updated

I've long seen this as an archetypal example of a station equivalent to Minories but straightened out though in its heyday it had several more tracks than its three platforms (only two now) Also, coming into the station I suspect that the entrance to the goods yard on the river side came between the two crossovers and the entrance to the third platform though there was later a scissors crossover.  There was also some kind of bay on the castle/road side but not electrified and with a trap point so not a passenger bay. I'm guessing an end loading dock for horses. (One of the photos does show what looks like a horse box in the bay . Would this have been enough to bring horses to and from Windsor race course on race days?

As effectively an outer suburban terminus it would have been quite busy with a lot of movements to operate it before it was electrified.

Edited by Pacific231G
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Windsor and Eton on the SRS site.  The 1958 plan could, I think, be simplified for sectional track by making the outer crossover facing instead of trailing and reducing the scissors to a plain trailing crossover at the entrance to platforms 3 and 4, without losing any parallel moves. The arrangement of the slip in the throat reminds me of Borchester Market (another excellent plan for a model terminus).

 

The 1963 layout with four platforms feeding a single line, loco release crossovers and colour light signalling seems to have been designed for modellers.

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12 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Windsor and Eton Riverside?

 

Very nice station in all sorts of ways, although perhaps a bit too rationalised for modelling purposes these days.

 

You don't have to go back too far in time to get a more interesting model. IIRC it was rationalised circa 1990 so even in NSE times you could still have 3 platform faces.

 

1714894_11d39ee1.jpg

 

If you go back to the banger-blue era you get 3 platform faces as well as a modest goods yard. The transition era would be interesting with green electrics on passenger services and steam on the goods.

 

Riverside%20Station%20Platforms%20900.jp

 

riversidestn6-1957600780x468_zps65cf7781

 

Here is an older shot showing the view across the Thames.

 

1880sGWWGoodsYardRiverside800.jpg

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42 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

Windsor and Eton on the SRS site.  The 1958 plan could, I think, be simplified for sectional track by making the outer crossover facing instead of trailing and reducing the scissors to a plain trailing crossover at the entrance to platforms 3 and 4, without losing any parallel moves. The arrangement of the slip in the throat reminds me of Borchester Market (another excellent plan for a model terminus).

 

The 1963 layout with four platforms feeding a single line, loco release crossovers and colour light signalling seems to have been designed for modellers.

That confused me for a while till I realised that it's Windsor and Eaton GWR - the now single track branch from Slough. The more Minories like station is the LSWR's Windsor and Eaton (Riverside)  which AFAIK has always been at the end of a double track line.

This is the SRS thumbnail for Windsor and Eaton (Riverside)

https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/srr/R286.htm

I think it's quite an early one but I don't know when the scissors crossover was replaced by two crossovers as now. 

Edited by Pacific231G
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W&E Riverside would certainly keep an operator busy if used as an inspiration for a minors in pre-electrification days. Looking at Bradshaw for 1910, there were 26 scheduled services in each direction to Waterloo Monday-Saturday, 3 scheduled services in each direction to Woking via Chertesey, and I think, but get very confused about which trains are connections, which might split at Staines Junction, and which are through services using the Staines West Curve, some more running to Reading and to Woking via Camberley and Ascot.

 

On top of that, it was, naturally, the destination for all sorts of specials, with military trains coming from some odd places to bring troops, bands, and horses to ceremonials, plus Royal Trains.

 

To prevent it bursting out in all directions, beyond the spirit of Minories, it could become 'Castle Royal', as it was identified by Thomas Hardy in his novels.

 

How many M7s and Adam's Radials can a person need?

Edited by Nearholmer
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1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

W&E Riverside would certainly keep an operator busy if used as an inspiration for a minors in pre-electrification days. Looking at Bradshaw for 1910, there were 26 scheduled services in each direction to Waterloo Monday-Saturday, 3 scheduled services in each direction to Woking via Chertesey, and I think, but get very confused about which trains are connections, which might split at Staines Junction, and which are through services using the Staines West Curve, some more running to Reading and to Woking via Camberley and Ascot.

 

On top of that, it was, naturally, the destination for all sorts of specials, with military trains coming from some odd places to bring troops, bands, and horses to ceremonials, plus Royal Trains.

 

To prevent it bursting out in all directions, beyond the spirit of Minories, it could become 'Castle Royal', as it was identified by Thomas Hardy in his novels.

 

How many M7s and Adam's Radials can a person need?

The Royal Train workings generally ran to/from the GWR station which included considerable provision in its total facilities fir such things such as a special entrance completely undercover so that HM's (various) over the years would neither get wet nor be exposed to the hoi poloi when changing from carriage to train and vice versa.  The goods yard at Central was also at a lower level and had its own shunting pilot for a goodly chunk of the day plus of course being a much larger station than the SR one round the  corner.  Train services were also pretty varied with quite a lot of through workings to London at one time as well as the branch service from Slough while excursions brought in such exotica as  'Jubilees', Black 5s,  B1s and 4Fs among others.

 

But it would be quite a project to model and I operate as it was a large station. 

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6 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

The Royal Train workings generally ran to/from the GWR station which included considerable provision in its total facilities fir such things such as a special entrance completely undercover so that HM's (various) over the years would neither get wet nor be exposed to the hoi poloi when changing from carriage to train and vice versa.  The goods yard at Central was also at a lower level and had its own shunting pilot for a goodly chunk of the day plus of course being a much larger station than the SR one round the  corner.  Train services were also pretty varied with quite a lot of through workings to London at one time as well as the branch service from Slough while excursions brought in such exotica as  'Jubilees', Black 5s,  B1s and 4Fs among others.

 

But it would be quite a project to model and I operate as it was a large station. 

 

Updated

Central is obviously the better known Windsor and Eaton station and just over the road from the castle's main gate. Riverside did though have a "Royal Waiting Room"  King's (earlier Queen's) Waiting Room. This was the building  that you can see in Karhedron's photo butted up to the castle side of the wall about half way along the easternmost platform. It had its own carriage entrance with a canopy and is now at the end of the small wedge shaped carpark. The building has what looks like a bell lantern, perhaps to signal when the royal personage was ready to board the waiting train or perhaps to signal the castle. This station may well have been preferred for less public and ceremonial royal travel possibly, the monarch apart,  with a royal carriage rather than the complete train.  It would for example have been the obvious station to use for Portsmouth and the Spithead reviews so possibly for HMs to visit HMS.

 

There are 25 inch maps available from the National Library of Scotland up to about the mid 1930s which show the track in some detail. The station lies across two sheets and you need to zoom in to get the full detail (if you use the + and - rather than the mouse to zoom you should get a consistent size . I've just done that for 1897, 1910, 1923 and 1933   (the latest) and I've now stitched these together I'll have a go at working it in anyrail. Rather frustratingly only the sheet covering the north end of the site is available for the 1874 25 inch series and this indicates a simple trailing crossover at the London end of the site rather than the later scissors.  I assume there was also  a facing crossover (As with the current arrangement of two crossovers)   

 

What really strikes me is how close operationally this terminus was to Minories (though there are releasing crossovers near the ends of all three platforms). Being confined to a narrow and relatively short curved site (about 1400 ft long by 200- 250 ft wide)  between the river and Windsor Great Park does give it significant modelling potential so a fairly busy three platform terminus with a small but complete goods yard  .  I don't know if the wall on the castle side was there to avoid the "nuisance" of trains being seen from the Castle or just to support the train shed roof.

Edited by Pacific231G
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Are minories operationally satisfying? Yes, I'd think so. It does depend on a timetable, and a knowledge of how you'd want the system to work. You would (hopefully) learn about single line working, track occupation, removing (planning) for conflicting movements, etc.

 

The timetable makes it; It gives a sense of direction & accomplishment. The timetable at Alkham was a solid 4-5 hours work, end to end.  But it didn't end there. The position where you stopped, was the position where you re-started.  Added to that, Ian introduced coloured buttons, so he finally had 6 timetables, decided on the roll of a dice. A weekend in an exhibition might often see an unbalanced working, just like real life.

 

Happy modelling,

 

ian. 

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39 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

Central is obviously the better known Windsor and Eaton station and just over the road from the castle's main gate. Riverside did though have a "Royal Waiting Room" so might well have been used for less public and ceremonial travel by the HRHs if not the HMs. It would for example have been the obvious station to use for Portsmouth and the Spithead reviews so possibly for HMs to visit HMS.

 

There are 25 inch maps available from the National Library of Scotland up to about the mid 1930s which show the track in some detail. The station lies across two sheets and you need to zoom in to get the full detail (if you use the + and - rather than the mouse to zoom you should get a consistent size . I've just done that for 1910, 1923 and 1933   (the latest) so am now going to set about stitching them together in Paint Shop. I'll then have a go at working it in anyrail.

 

What really strikes me is how close operationally it is to Minories (though there are releasing crossovers near the ends of all three platforms). Being confined to a narrow and relatively short site between the river and Windsor Great Park does give it significant modelling potential.  I assume the wall on the castle side was to avoid the "nuisance" of trains being seen from the Castle.

FYI: old-maps.co.uk automatically stitches the maps together. That's one of the reasons I prefer it to the nls site but both have their problems.

 

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38 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

FYI: old-maps.co.uk automatically stitches the maps together. That's one of the reasons I prefer it to the nls site but both have their problems.

 

Phil,

 

NLS also stitches the maps together:

 

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17&lat=51.4870&lon=-0.6075&layers=168&b=1

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1 hour ago, tomparryharry said:

Are minories operationally satisfying? Yes, I'd think so. It does depend on a timetable, and a knowledge of how you'd want the system to work. You would (hopefully) learn about single line working, track occupation, removing (planning) for conflicting movements, etc.

 

The timetable makes it; It gives a sense of direction & accomplishment. The timetable at Alkham was a solid 4-5 hours work, end to end.  But it didn't end there. The position where you stopped, was the position where you re-started.  Added to that, Ian introduced coloured buttons, so he finally had 6 timetables, decided on the roll of a dice. A weekend in an exhibition might often see an unbalanced working, just like real life.

 

Happy modelling,

 

ian. 

 

That hit the nail squarely on the head. If you have a Minories style layout, it has the potential to be very satisfying to operate, if you take the trouble and want to run it that way. A well thought out sequence or timetable, with varied moves, will keep you occupied and enthralled for a good long time.

 

If, on the other hand, you run train in, train out, train in, train out, I would soon tire of it. 

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I hear what is being said about the basic Minories being plenty interesting enough if it's operated intelligently but I'd just like to follow up on the idea of expanding Minories - mainly because I'm quite pleased with the throat design of Daws Lane! 

 

So here are two developments of Daws Lane that use the same throat but with fewer platforms and adding a kickback depot. I haven't shown a loco spur like classic Minories yet. There is room for one but I wonder whether it's better to just imagine that loco stabling is off-scene, beyond the throat.

 

849871881_DawsLane6.png.84fa3e2297ab6a796e896595e86b4433.png

 

 

1623349794_DawsLane6d.png.2e360fb5e72c5ebfe5c5ff50613aa113.png

 

A thought about one-man operation: I imagine that small, highly parallel layouts like these might be ideal for computer control. Then the human operator(s) could take on the roles that they find most interesting and challenging: signalman, passenger train driver, pilot/shunter driver, timetabler (maybe?).

 

Edit: I just noticed that I haven't updated some of the point labels since revising. Sorry folks, I'll fix it later.

Edited by Harlequin
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One man operation is Ok. But, add a second, and it starts to get more interesting on an exponential basis. Alkham was a two-person layout. 3 was better, but when you got to 4, it hit the 'sweet spot', where the social interaction amongst the operators featured very strongly. Regardless of size, any layout (Including Minories) will inject a degree of difference when you add another person on the roster.

 

"Speed up Smithy, you're 2 minutes down" is as real life as it gets, on any scale.

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

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Hi.

 

I only came across this thread a couple of days ago and have just about read through it!!  I've always fancied a Minories layout but did wonder if it could get a bit boring just running DMUs in and out.   Yes, they're my main interest - wouldn't you guess with a username like mine!!

 

However, I'd also been fascinated for many years by the layout at West Kirby on Merseyside, mainly because we had relatives lived there when I was a kid and we used to travel by train to visit them.  It was the off-set island platform, single slip and crossover at the end of the platform that took my eye.  The concept is similar to Minories - a simple multiplatform passenger terminus with a compact throat.  There was an article in the December 1991 Railway Modeller about it: the first page is here:

 

569843944_RailwayModellerarticlePage1.jpg.c4d7269bdf0b80d452838e7ccd9599d3.jpg

 

The layout in that plan is missing another siding at the bottom of the plan which was removed sometime between 1983 and 1989 so I have reinstated it.  The platforms on my model can take 5 DMU vehicles (or a loco and 4 Mark 1 coaches.) so I can attach or detach sets if I want to.

 

To make operation more interesting, though, I have added a DMU stabling point kicking back off a headshunt alongside the reinstated siding.  Also, I run a rake of 4 Mark 1s and a 4 vehicle parcels rake which have to be reversed by using a shunter as the run round crossovers were taken out on electrification in the late 1930s.

 

Here are a couple of photos of the general layout (it's 0 gauge, by the way!!)

 

541287093_P1050978-Copy.JPG.62803fbb7db18de1a660e04dab82e4d4.JPG1038728811_P1050994-Copy.JPG.2a81ab242fdb1b03004bee70bd40bcd1.JPG

 

I find it really interesting to operate on my own, but 4 visitors can get a lot of enjoyment from it, too (1x signalman, 1x Up driver, 1x Down driver and 1x fiddle yard operator).

 

So, to answer the question of the thread title: yes, Minories can be operationally satisfying, with a bit more added interest as others have suggested (parcels depots, carriage sidings, etc.)  I believe CJF added some more sidings to the plan later, didn't he?

 

Rod

 

PS  There is a trailing crossover, on the curve behind the vehicles in the stabling point: it could be brought closer but it fitted better there on this layout.  In the article above it is suggested that crossover is off scene beyond the bridge.

 

PPS   I have seen somewhere a prototype station with a similar track plan but can't for the life of me remember where - and I didn't make any note of it!!!!  It was a mirror image of West Kirby and was located "somewhere down South" - that's a Northerner's description and as close as I can remember!!

Edited by Dmudriver
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1 hour ago, Dmudriver said:

PPS   I have seen somewhere a prototype station with a similar track plan but can't for the life of me remember where - and I didn't make any note of it!!!!  It was a mirror image of West Kirby and was located "somewhere down South" - that's a Northerner's description and as close as I can remember!!

 

I believe the original Minories throat was inspired by old western end of the Circle and Metropolitan line station at Liverpool Stree which used to have a bay platform. I can't find any photos old enough to show the trackwork but there are a couple below showing the bay after it was severed. The whole lot has now disappeared in the Crossrail remodelling.

 

6_LiverpoolSt2.jpg

 

6_LiverpoolSt1.jpg

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DMUDriver

 

Very believable-looking station you've created there.

 

Karhedron

 

You can see most of the bit of Liverpool St Met that inspired CJF on NLS Maps, the 1:1056 map being clearest. What confuses slightly is that it also shows the junction and tracks that ran into the GER station, which had gone by the time CJF observed. It was one heck of a cramped junction!

 

Next along, Aldgate, is another astonishingly cramped and complicated station, even now - well worth a visit. This picture shows the "west" end in 1902 ...... complicated it certainly was then! https://www.ltmuseum.co.uk/collections/collections-online/photographs?q=Aldgate

 

Kevin

Edited by Nearholmer
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This is a very interesting thread. Suburban railways have much interest about them.

 

I had a go at operating Minories (GN) in December at the MRC's mini-exhibition, and, while quite fun, there is much potential for cognitive overload when operating single-handedly. It is more fun when operating with a second or even third operator (although I did not try it with 3). It may be less overwhelming when one is more accustomed to it as its creator/owner, Tom, is: he seems to manage parallel movements single-handedly, which is quite the feat of mental engineering.

 

Windsor & Eaton Riverside (a station with which I have some familiarity in modern times) is an intriguing idea to model or inspire a model, not least because of the good availability of motive power that served the station over the years ready to run: everything from the Adams Radial tank for those interested in a Victorian experience, through the M7s for the Edwardian modeller to the BILs and VEPs of the electric age and the 450s of modern times; only the 455s are missing (albeit the earlier LSWR rolling stock would have to be built from kits).

 

A Victorian incarnation of Minories is an appealing idea. While considering various possibilities for what might be done with the far side lower level of my shed, which does not have a layout planned for it yet, I have been experimenting with designs for such a layout to see whether one might fit in OO gauge using Peco track, and have come up with this, which takes the carriage siding configuration from the second of the Dawes Lane plans (i.e. one in the centre and one beyond the near platform), adding multiple locomotive spurs. There is also room for a small goods yard and/or engine shed beyond the upper double slip, although that is not included in this plan.

 

Running lines are clear, fiddle yards are green and locomotive storage in fiddle yards is blue.

 

113126995_SuburbanVictorian2.png.fee86e36080121f4ab17a09ded4c5526.png

 

This has a minimum curve radius of 600mm in the fiddle yards and 2,000mm in the scenic section, and platforms/fiddle yard roads long enough to take 6 bogie carriages plus locomotive. The fiddle yards can be operated in a kickback arrangement with space for 8 stabled locomotives. It is likely to be operated optimally by computer control, at least in part.

 

This plan omits the reverse curve of the original Minories plan (which I am not sure is the best design feature) and substitutes a curved throat as discussed.

 

Incidentally, on the subject of locations, another location for a Minories style layout might well be Hammersmith on the Hammersmith & City Line.

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49 minutes ago, jamespetts said:

This is a very interesting thread. Suburban railways have much interest about them.

 

Windsor & Eaton Riverside (a station with which I have some familiarity in modern times) is an intriguing idea to model or inspire a model, not least because of the good availability of motive power that served the station over the years ready to run: everything from the Adams Radial tank for those interested in a Victorian experience, through the M7s for the Edwardian modeller to the BILs and VEPs of the electric age and the 450s of modern times; only the 455s are missing (albeit the earlier LSWR rolling stock would have to be built from kits).

Incidentally, on the subject of locations, another location for a Minories style layout might well be Hammersmith on the Hammersmith & City Line.

I agree about Hammersmith (H&C) I went there to see the Steam on the Met train a few years ago and, with a steam train in, it definitely had that atmosphere.

1079550350_WindsorRiversidetrackplanmaxextent(notscale).jpg.90551295b9eca6b475de1cf415d564fb.jpg

This is Windsor and Eaton Riverside's track layout as it was in 1910 but it was almost identical in 1933. It's a bit diagrammatic  and I've replaced the scissors crossover at the the throat end with a pair of crossovers. The (Peco) turntable is probably too large and, because I've also just used Peco standard points, the angles don't work out and I've not introduced the gentle curve that runs the length of the platforms. Topologically it should be accurate though I've omitted any trap points. 

I'm intrigued by what appears to be a disconnected length of track along the side of the Thames behind the turntable. It appears on the 1910 edition but not any of the others. It may just be a cartographic anomaly but the run of the line beyond the TT does suggest some kind of wharfage. Could loco coal have been brought here by river rather than rail?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Pacific231G
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3 hours ago, jamespetts said:

This is a very interesting thread. Suburban railways have much interest about them.

 

 

3 hours ago, jamespetts said:

113126995_SuburbanVictorian2.png.fee86e36080121f4ab17a09ded4c5526.png

 

 

 

You have a massive amount of non scenic fiddle area compared to the scenic part,  Its not ideal as you will fairly rapidly run out of places to add scenic features, also the operation is pretty binary.   If I was using this space and this basic station design I would go for more visible storage, and if steam days a small loco depot /sub shed etc and minimise the kick back headshunts, See doodle     I remember the "Borchester" layouts of Frank Dwyer (?) had just one in and one out kick back for his stabling sidings.  Actually I would probably use a "Hockey stick traverser" to form the kickback and save a shed load of points and length

Screenshot (256).png

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7 hours ago, jamespetts said:

Windsor & Eaton Riverside (a station with which I have some familiarity in modern times) is an intriguing idea to model or inspire a model, not least because of the good availability of motive power that served the station over the years ready to run: everything from the Adams Radial tank for those interested in a Victorian experience, through the M7s for the Edwardian modeller to the BILs and VEPs of the electric age and the 450s of modern times; only the 455s are missing (albeit the earlier LSWR rolling stock would have to be built from kits).

 

The 455s are available from Bratchell. NSE is probably the latest that W&E riverside would be interesting. It was remodelled in the early 2000s, losing the 3rd platform face in the process. It was down to just the 2 platforms by the time the Desiros turned up.

 

bratchell5835d_600.jpg

 

bratchell455909b_600.jpg

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Small Daws Lane update:

Corrected points labelling and I managed to squeeze in a Large Right to ease the reverse curve inbound to Platform 3.

382734960_DawsLane6r2.png.38834760e8fcaf15e5649d91b68fe56f.png

 

Interestingly, the top most Medium left can almost be replaced by a Large Left to ease the reverse curve outbound from Platform 2 but it doesn't quite fit. I'm sure the real physical parts could be fettled to fit.

 

P.S. I'm pretty sure that Peco could make a Medium radius single slip with the same connecting geometry as the current Small radius slip. It would be interesting to mock one up in Templot.

Edited by Harlequin
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So, given a Minories layout plan (let's just assume very close to the CJF original, with without some industry headshunt - mine has the loco pocket converted to a coal siding, and an additional gravel siding not connected to the throat but on-layout) - how does one go about creating that interesting operational design? 

 

Without a pilot loco (my layout is set in the 80's so can't really justify it!) It seems that the default way of creating interest is interleaving movements (train B arrives while train A is still at the station) or connecting trains somehow (train A drops off a parcels van that is marshalled into train B for its outbound journey). Am I missing something? :)

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