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Is Minories operationally satisfying?


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I've seen Bradfield Gloucester Square a few times under both The Laird and its present management and it is a really excellent layout beautifully modelled and greatly helped by  a well developed operating timetable. It's also a very good example of a layout that is more or less pure railway with almost nothing, apart from a few low relief mill backs, beyond the railway fence. This precise throat might be difficult to build wth Peco track but I'm sure a close equivalent would be possible.  It would of course be fairly easy to use this plan with a small local goods yard or depot replacing the lower carriage sidings. 

For passenger stock the track plan is very cleverly designed to avoid any immediate reverse curves over points so, despite a fairly short throat, carriages flow rather than lurch through the pointwork  in a most attractive way while corridor connections can actually not have gaps.  I'm not sure what minimum crossing angle The Laird used but i don't think the pointwork is particularly long.  

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On 11/02/2018 at 08:57, Clive Mortimore said:

I can only comment on my experience with my layout Sheffield Exchange Mk1 which was a Minories type layout. I would go out to the manshed to do some scenery. "I'll just run one train". Then I would look at the clock, "Goodness, I was meant to go to bed an hour ago", and no scenery work had be done. I enjoyed operating it.

That's similar to my experience. I've built 2 versions of Minories so far, and have another one planned as an extension to my current layout. The only limitation I've found with the original Minories with goods sidings, is having them alongside the station makes goods shunting tricky. I prefer to reverse the sidings. i.e. goods trains run into a head shunt next to the 3 platform roads, and reverse into sidings alongside the station throat. 

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5 hours ago, MikeHunter said:

That's similar to my experience. I've built 2 versions of Minories so far, and have another one planned as an extension to my current layout. The only limitation I've found with the original Minories with goods sidings, is having them alongside the station makes goods shunting tricky. I prefer to reverse the sidings. i.e. goods trains run into a head shunt next to the 3 platform roads, and reverse into sidings alongside the station throat. 

You're in good company Mike; Cyril Freeze came to exactly the same conclusion. His later versions were as you're planning and the kickback goods yard also has the virtue of making use of the wedge of unused space  in front of the throat pointwork (though there's no law that says you have to use rectangular baseboards!)   

 

Given the elegance of the basic Minories,  I always thought the second plan in the original 1957 article,  with the goods depot in front of the platforms and an awkward zig zag from platform three was a bit of an afterthought. Minories was originally designed as a five foot long folding layout in TT-3 and published a month after Tri-ang's initial release. At first, the only loco was the 0-6-0T "Jinty" and the only passenger stock were a suburban composite and brake second. With those, an intensively worked commuter terminus on a very portable folding layout would have been an excellent demonstration of the smaller gauge's potential. However, a few goods wagons were also available. I'm not sure when Peco's own "wonderful wagons" appeared in TT-3 but their nylon wheelsets (that in OO had already done a lot to facilitate the general adoption of two rail) appeared faIrly quickly so I can imagine Sydney Pritchard demanding a goods yard option.

 

Did you include goods on your earlier Minories based layouts (and do you have any images of them please?)

Edited by Pacific231G
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Until recently, I thought that the ‘jinty on intensive suburban service’ was all a bit of a fantasy, but then the penny dropped that that was how the non-electric services from abroad Street onto the ex-GNR were worked in the 1930s, although the coaches were four-wheelers. I’d bet that CJF knew all about that. 

 

 

 

Edited by Nearholmer
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On 10/02/2019 at 20:10, Pacific231G said:

This was Maybank's trackplan from August 1934 when it was featured in MRN 

1339312093_Maybankplanconsolidatedm.jpg.c4c15ca3255cbe03ce3047f5303a357f.jpg

As a home layout it lived in a ladder shed at Bill Banwell's home and would have used the traverser. The platforms had a capacity of four main line coaches plus a medium sized tender loco. 

 

 

 

I've tried to approximate this with #6 turnouts and it's a bit of a dogs breakfast - fits into 7' x 18" in N gauge:

GhVXLCA.png

 

Honestly, I'm not sure what one gains from this layout, other than just being another iteration of the Minories pattern? If it wasn't for the THREE double slips it would seem like a feasible 'general purpose' alternative...

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In 0 scale, it just about allows one to ram all the throat point-work for a four-platform terminus onto one, not very easily portable, baseboard (well, actually not quite all). This is an important consideration, if you are using mechanical point operation from a lever frame via rodding, which was how things were usually done "in the old days".

 

In a smaller scale, and/or with electric actuators for the points, its advantages disappear.

 

In 0, it is a struggle to fit even a Minories throat, that is sufficient to deal with three platforms, on a sensibly portable board using ordinary turnouts, which is where slips and tandems come into play.

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I had a little play on a minories plan in XtrkCAD - two trains of five coaches, two mail vans, two tender locos and a tank - after 15 minutes I hadn't even finished the two trains! It got complicated pretty quickly balancing inbound and outbound moves!

 

I did play about with expanding it - I feel like for the 'cost' of three turnouts a headshunt and another parcels road this makes the layout seem alot bigger, but I don't know if it's any better :)

 

EDIT: Removed random plans and discussion to separate thread, here

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9 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

 

I've tried to approximate this with #6 turnouts and it's a bit of a dogs breakfast - fits into 7' x 18" in N gauge:

GhVXLCA.png

 

Honestly, I'm not sure what one gains from this layout, other than just being another iteration of the Minories pattern? If it wasn't for the THREE double slips it would seem like a feasible 'general purpose' alternative...

 

Hardly another iteration of Minories; Maybank came a long time before Minories - twenty five years before in fact. Given how entranced the young Cyril Freezer was by it at one of the pre-war MRC shows there's no doubt that it led directly to Minories. It was also the first example of a terminus to fiddle yard layout ever to be exhibited. The fact that it did this with a main line rather than a branch line terminus may just reflect the fact that almost no pre-war modellers (apart from John Ahern) were interested in branch lines. Main line railways were exciting and dramatic so why wouldn't you want to model them.

 

Apart from the traverser board and the MPD above it which were seven feet long. Maybank was built on a set of four six foot long baseboards. The final set of points in the throat pointwork were on the next board but that doesn't seem to have given them any problems. Bill Banwell and Frank Applegate were accomplished scratchbuilt modellers by an extraordinarily young age (as shown by this photo of Maybank's first outing to a hobbies show in Wealdstone in November 1932) so building double slips was clearly well within their capabilities.  1305848987_Maybank_MR_WealdstoneNov1932cropped.jpg.312d3ff68dbe0b1985cfa98782b16b36.jpg

(The high level goods yard had gone by its second outing to the MRC Easter show in 1933 but signals had been added)

 

 

8 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

In 0 scale, it just about allows one to ram all the throat point-work for a four-platform terminus onto one, not very easily portable, baseboard (well, actually not quite all). This is an important consideration, if you are using mechanical point operation from a lever frame via rodding, which was how things were usually done "in the old days".

 

In a smaller scale, and/or with electric actuators for the points, its advantages disappear.

 

In 0, it is a struggle to fit even a Minories throat, that is sufficient to deal with three platforms, on a sensibly portable board using ordinary turnouts, which is where slips and tandems come into play.

Points and signals were controlled from a mechanical lever frame and the track was brass rail laid on cardboard sleepers with an outside third rail (centre third was more common in the early 1930s but the two friends decided that outside third was more prototypical) Of the station pointwork all but one point were on the one six foot board but I reckon the throat was about five foot six long across all its pointwork.

 

Four platforms do seem to have been the standard number for a main line terminus model in those days, almost all of Edward Beal's were as well as an awful lot of real examples from Swansea and Fenchurch Street to Reading Southern and Penzance.Plymouth Millbay. In any case Maybank was GCR and Marylebone had four platforms. All of Maybank's four platforms could comfortably handle the four coach bogie and five coach four wheel trains that ran on the layout (In O gauge a four coach express looks a lot more convincing than it does in OO) and notice that there were no releasing crossovers so more work for the station pilots.  

 

The Minories throat does fit comfortably into six feet in O scale

newford.jpg.c8f42c5a983b9bbb10b9b7ee15dffcb5.jpg

That was the length of the main pointwork board on Brian Thomas' Newford though he did tell me that it was the awkwardsness of that six foot  by twenty two inch board that led to his selling the layout to David D'arcy as the basis for his extended Littleton layout

 

 

With medium radius points Minories fits comfortable enough onto a three foot baseboard in OO/H0 and, even with a couple of large radius points to ease the one immediae S bend, fits onto a metre long board.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Pacific231G
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20 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

 

Hardly another iteration of Minories; Maybank came a long time before Minories - twenty five years before in fact. Given how entranced the young Cyril Freezer was by it at one of the pre-war MRC shows there's no doubt that it led directly to Minories. It was also the first example of a terminus to fiddle yard layout ever to be exhibited. The fact that it did this with a main line rather than a branch line terminus may just reflect the fact that almost no pre-war modellers (apart from John Ahern) were interested in branch lines. Main line railways were exciting and dramatic so why wouldn't you want to model them.

 

Hello Pacific - I didn't mean literally, just thinking out loud in terms of the functional result - a compact(ish) city terminus. It's really inspirational and searching for it earlier today found me again in this thread and thinking about these layouts. Amazing to think that GCR was only 6 years out of the way when this photograph was taken! That odd kinked scissors in the front/bottom of the layout is something I would never have considered, but clearly there's always something to learn.

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231

 

I used the phrase "on a sensibly portable board" precisely because I personally don't consider that 6ft fits that description, having once junked a layout because the three 5ft x 20in boards that it consisted of were too cumbersome.

 

Kevin

 

PS: Penzance didn't have four platform faces in the early 1930s, only three.

Edited by Nearholmer
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I always thought that in 4mm scale, a 4ft long station throat and a 4ft long platform gave a nice balanced look and allowed all the pointwork to be on one board, even if more realistic points were made, rather than RTR short ones. On mine, the station has 1 in 7 crossings and all the points are on one 4ft board. It does improve the rather rapid zig zag through the points, with carriage ends waving about a long way away from the next carriage. I made a mistake using a short Y point in one position. It causes a bit of buffer locking when propelling bogie carriages through it as the geometry isn't as good as it should be. We got around that be dragging stock in with a pilot rather than propelling but it wasn't ideal.

 

In 7mm, the equivalent lengths, even with my rudimentary maths, are a 7ft platform and a 7ft station throat. If you use 2 x 3' 6" boards and place your mechanical lever frame over the joint, you can still work points and signals without anything going across a baseboard joint.

 

I have the boards ready for a 16ft O gauge minories, based on my 4mm version. It will have the same S bend approach straightened out but will have 3 platforms and two goods sidings instead of the two platforms, a centre road and one goods siding of the 4mm version. he throat will be on 2 x 4ft boards and I may well go down the mechanical route for working points and signals. It is a long term project as the garage needs much sorting out before I can even think about doing anything!

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3 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

231

 

I used the phrase "on a sensibly portable board" precisely because I personally don't consider that 6ft fits that description, having once junked a layout because the three 5ft x 20in boards that it consisted of were too cumbersome.

 

Kevin

 

PS: Penzance didn't have four platform faces in the early 1930s, only three.

I've changed it to Plymouth Millbay which did.

I totally agree that a six foot board isn't sensibly portable. I'm currently thinking that even four foot is pushing it  (I once had 4x2 H0e layout and found that a bit too much of a lump) but several people I know have had five foot long single baseboard layouts that they've cheerfully taken to shows on their own. Wouldn't a double track MLT with genuinely portable boards in O need a lot of board joins?  I suppose your fifteen foot layout could have used four three foot nine inch long boards. Was that O or a smaller scale? 

If memory serves Brian's Newford layout had two four foot long boards for the platforms, a six foot board with the whole throat on it and a ten foot long fiddle yard on a pair of five foot boards. The whole thing was 20 inches wide.

Edited by Pacific231G
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18 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

The little lad in his school uniform and wellies looks the part!

This was the layout's first public apperance at the Wealdstone Methodist Meccano Club’s exhibition on Saturday 5th November 1932. Its portability was proven when the caretaker insisted on it being removed from the hall that night rather than the next morning. With no van available at short notice the six foot by two foot  sections– seven by two for the loco shed and traverser (which were on separate high and low level boards) were simply carried home through the streets with the help of fellow club members.

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20 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

Is that a young Jacob Rees-Mogg second from the right?  :jester:

 

To think that you had to be properly dressed even to participate in your hobby.

 

 

 

Jason

Yes, several things wrong with the photo and the accompanying text. For starters, school uniform wouldn't be worn for a non school function, today. Especially as the text states that it's a Saturday.

 

The caretaker would these days have questions to answer, for sending a group of young men out late at night, carrying modules. Why couldn't they be left overnight?

These days they are likely to be stopped by cops or worse thugs, who would possibly smash the lot up.

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I decided to run an experiment based on the four staging tracks for Maybank - would that be enough? Well, i think so!

 

If we imagine that the station is empty, and four trains are in the fiddle yard - each train has a minimum of five movements:

  • when it arrives
  • when the pilot shunts its coaches
  • when the loco moves off to the FY or another platform road, and for departure:
  • the loco arrives to pick up a given set of coaches
  • when it departs

Each one would take a few minutes, so four trains operated precisely as this would take about half an hour. I think the challenge would be to come up with realistic movements that allow one to expand beyond the railway equivalent of the Towers of Hanoi.

 

Presumably, there would be about fiveclasses of trains that would arrive at the station with some subtly different operating patterns:

  • Mail/Parcels/Newspapers arriving first and being shunted with outbound traffic
  • Sleepers arriving and the coaches being gently shunted to a lesser used platform and the station pilot not hanging around nearby, before being taken away to the carriage yard
  • Long distance trains, operated as per standard pattern above
  • Short distance trains, operated via a tank loco that doesn't need to be turned
  • A push-pull commuter train, that don't need to even run around and can immediately depart.

Despite this, the majority of work above is either simply elided or duplicated rather than any practical variety.  I can think of a few additional movements that would make things a ltitle more exciting:

  • setting out and picking up loose coaches or short rakes to make up a longer train,
  • setting out and picking up NPCS for addition to or removal from existing rakes.
  • staggering arrivals and departures to clog up the station - how?
  • operating to a fast clock

 

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9 hours ago, kevinlms said:

 Why couldn't they be left overnight?

 

 

As it was Wealdstone Methodists Meccano Club, I presume the exhibition was held in a church hall which would have been needed for other purposes the next day.

 

 

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1 minute ago, RJS1977 said:

 

As it was Wealdstone Methodists Meccano Club, I presume the exhibition was held in a church hall which would have been needed for other purposes the next day.

 

 

My thoughts were an early morning removal, BEFORE a church function.

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1 hour ago, Lacathedrale said:

I decided to run an experiment based on the four staging tracks for Maybank - would that be enough? Well, i think so!

 

If we imagine that the station is empty, and four trains are in the fiddle yard - each train has a minimum of five movements:

  • when it arrives
  • when the pilot shunts its coaches
  • when the loco moves off to the FY or another platform road, and for departure:
  • the loco arrives to pick up a given set of coaches
  • when it departs

Each one would take a few minutes, so four trains operated precisely as this would take about half an hour. I think the challenge would be to come up with realistic movements that allow one to expand beyond the railway equivalent of the Towers of Hanoi.

 

Presumably, there would be about fiveclasses of trains that would arrive at the station with some subtly different operating patterns:

  • Mail/Parcels/Newspapers arriving first and being shunted with outbound traffic
  • Sleepers arriving and the coaches being gently shunted to a lesser used platform and the station pilot not hanging around nearby, before being taken away to the carriage yard
  • Long distance trains, operated as per standard pattern above
  • Short distance trains, operated via a tank loco that doesn't need to be turned
  • A push-pull commuter train, that don't need to even run around and can immediately depart.

Despite this, the majority of work above is either simply elided or duplicated rather than any practical variety.  I can think of a few additional movements that would make things a ltitle more exciting:

  • setting out and picking up loose coaches or short rakes to make up a longer train,
  • setting out and picking up NPCS for addition to or removal from existing rakes.
  • staggering arrivals and departures to clog up the station - how?
  • operating to a fast clock

 

 

You also have a variety of different ways that a train can be dealt with when it arrives. You could just put another train loco on the back and take it straight out. You could bring a pilot onto the back and draw the carriages to the carriage sidings (back to the fiddle yard). So the same few sets of carriages could run twice each and be dealt with differently on each appearance.

 

That is what happens on Buckingham. There are only really a handful of passenger train sets (6 actual rakes of carriages a push pull and a railmotor) but they run several times each, with different locos or tail loads, so they look different.

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3 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

Presumably, there would be about five classes of trains that would arrive at the station with some subtly different operating patterns:

  • Mail/Parcels/Newspapers arriving first and being shunted with outbound traffic
  • Sleepers arriving and the coaches being gently shunted to a lesser used platform and the station pilot not hanging around nearby, before being taken away to the carriage yard
  • Long distance trains, operated as per standard pattern above
  • Short distance trains, operated via a tank loco that doesn't need to be turned
  • A push-pull commuter train, that don't need to even run around and can immediately depart.

 

I only have a 4 track fiddle yard too.  Your list of ideas and trains is pretty much what I do and it all works quite well.  Mind you I only have 2 platforms so it's pretty intensive! The short distance trains are DMU's the push-pull/autotrains are 121s and I also have a Motorail train in/out (nostalgia ain't what it used to be!).  I do need to load and unload stock - so I have some cassettes made from two loco-lifts joined together which lift 2 coaches and storage boxes with an open end into which stock can be run from the carriage lifts.

 

It's quite amazing the amount of traffic you can create with a timetable/WTT/movements diagram.

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The other thing is that if you have a Denny style fiddle yard (either the original lift-out-and-reverse version, or a train turntable), you can hav different roof boards on opposite sides of the carriages so it looks as if the train has come from somewhere else.

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On 31/03/2019 at 15:01, RJS1977 said:

The other thing is that if you have a Denny style fiddle yard (either the original lift-out-and-reverse version, or a train turntable), you can hav different roof boards on opposite sides of the carriages so it looks as if the train has come from somewhere else.

I don't think Bill and Frank were being that picky; they had after all only just invented the staging yard, With the MPD on top, it would have been very difficult to do more than store complete trains in it. I'd give you pretty good odds though that Peter Denny's fiddle yard was also inspired by Maybank.

 

At the time of MRN's 1934 description there were six tender and four tank locos avaialable and five passenger sets.

Main line corridor set.-Four 56-ft. coaches, as built in 1911 for the Bournemouth service.

Compartment set.-Four 56-ft. coaches, as built about 1910 for London suburban ser­vice.

Compartment set.-Four 42-ft. coaches, ex Maybank stock.

Articu­lated restaurant car set.-Three coach set, G.N.R. type, for the through Louth and King's Cross traffic.

Four­ wheeled set.-Five coaches, as built about 1880.

 

The number of wagons was described as "an ample supply for all needs" but a four platform terminus with a separate goods yard fed by four hidden sidings (on the traverser) would be able to handle six trains, one of them goods, quite easily.  

 

The traverser was pivoted at the far end and was semi automatic . It's starting position was with the first track lined up with the arrivals road for the first train to the terminus. Pressing a button on the control panel released the alignment bolt (presumably by a solenoid) and this made the circuit to a motor that moved it on till till the bolt sprang back to lock it in its next position and cut the power to the drive motor.The first track on the traverser was now empty and lined up with the departure road so a train already in the station  would have somewhere to go and the second inbound train would be lined up with the arrivals road.  According to the 1934 description this arrangement gave them four arrivals and four departures and at the MRC show they had five different timetables to  ring the changes. So far as  I can tell, each sequence took between 25 to 30 minutes and I've seen one image with a clock face sign next to the layout saying "next demonstration at...."  suggesting an hourly performance. Between performances the traverser would have been reloaded but I don't know whether this was done via the layout or by swinging it clear. It occurs to me that the traverser mechanism may have been similar to those used for automatically registering turntables and in those day purely electro-mechanical. Loading the traverser was the only time when stock needed to be handled as they used a hook and bar autocoupler with the bar a wire between buffers (made possible by using an outside third rail)

1947154367_Maybankautomaticcoupler.jpg.174f2fa508c78255c5dfa56a2e7de0b3.jpg

 

 

They made a silent film about the layout and its genesis in 1936, possibly with or for the MRC, and this was shown one year at the Easter show in Central Hall in lieu of the layout.  I've only ever seen a low resolution preview of this but it does show the auto coupler in effective use. Passenger trains were as described but at least one included a couple of wagons as a tail load. When the film was made Banwell and Applegate look to be in their very early twenties.

 

MRN's 1934 description of the layout, based on a visit to it at Bill Banwell's home after it had been exhibited twice at the MRC show ends thus:

"We've now been all over the system, and cannot but feel the greatest ad­miration for the two Directors of "Maybank", who have given us. some­thing new in model railways- some­thing that by its very simplicity of operation enables the working of a terminus to be shown with the utmost faithfulness of reproduction"

Given that Maybank was almost the only complete working model railway at many of the pre-war MRC shows, which were more about displaying railway models than seeing model railways in action,  the achievement of these two young men seems nothing short of staggering.   

UPDATE That impression came from the annual reviews in Model Railway News whose editor, J.N.Maskelyne does seem to have been far more interested in individual models than layouts. However, I've now found a report from the 1939 Model Railway Constructor that mentions a total of nine layouts, two of them from the Ilford and W.Essex MRC (OO and O) as well as The Portable Railway. It does sound though as if most of these were bare track roundy rounds to display trains though one was described as a well executed scenic O gauge layout and there was "Mr. Brampton's now famous and unrivalled 1 gauge Southern electric railway with its correctly made interlocking frame and illuminated working signals"   but the "famous Maybank  Railway" with demonstrations of railway operations at regular intervals still sounds to have been the most developed layout there. 

 

 

Edited by Pacific231G
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I was thinking of how one could do that, RJS - but as IMT has said, there is a fair amount of operation with just the four slots. I think that after 45 minutes of operating, one could either call it a night (if at home) or have a short tea break (if at an exhibition) and restage off-scene. I didn't factor in destination boards and that's a good point - it would be useful for an A and a B pattern, particularly if rakes are made up differently for the B-pattern.

 

IMT, I would be very eager to see your timetable/diagram, any chance of posting it?

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17 hours ago, kevinlms said:

Yes, several things wrong with the photo and the accompanying text. For starters, school uniform wouldn't be worn for a non school function, today. Especially as the text states that it's a Saturday.

 

The caretaker would these days have questions to answer, for sending a group of young men out late at night, carrying modules. Why couldn't they be left overnight?

These days they are likely to be stopped by cops or worse thugs, who would possibly smash the lot up.

I don't think Messrs Banwell and Applegate are wearing a school uniform but suits. In those days they'd probably have finished school at 14 and you can see their MRC badges on the lapels of their jackets. On a Saturday the little lad may well have  come from school; in the 1960s my school still had lessons on Saurday mornings so I was often still in my school uniform when I went trainspotting on a Saturday afternoon. The Meccano show was held in the church hall and it closed at 9PM, They were expecting to remove the layout the following evening and had arranged a lorry but the caretake was adamant that the room had to be cleared that evening for Sunday School the next morning. With six large baseboards I imagine it was quite a large party walking them through the streets of Harrow well after midnight.

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