O Gauge points, what are the options?

[H2O]

I'm thinking building a minimum space O gauge layout / diorama using the recent Dapol releases and totting up what I might need to buy.  I've used OO in the past so looking for a step up in realism.  It will be to model light industrial 50s- 70s bullhead track.  Although point work will be sparse (perhaps 3 or 4) I'm reluctant to invest my time in scratch building for a first effort.  I have scratch built in OO, mainly to get away from the HO sleeper spacing as then (to my eye) it just about makes the 16.5mm gauge error acceptable (re-wheeling everything to EM was a step too far for me).

 

I've been looking at options for simple O gauge point work for r-t-r stock and this seems to boil down to:

 

RTR Peco streamline - OK price, good look but block of plastic between the rails and 2 eyelets at the toe end spoils it.

RTR Peco set track - OK price, tight radius, need to cut part of the curve to generate anything like correct '6 foot', toe end better but still a compromise.

Pre-built Markway - OK price but soldered construction means lacking chair detail that is difficult to add?

Various plastic chaired kits - Look pricey (2x price of above?), good realism, time needed to build.

 

Not a criticism of any of the manufacturers (they know their business) - but all of the above seem to have a compromise or two!  Have I missed another kit or r-t-r point work option?

 

I'm willing to lightly build or modify.  I'm leaning toward cutting about the Peco streamline points to remove the plastic box at the toe.  Has anyone done this and have a tail to tell?  Are there better options for the first time modeller in 7mm?

 

Thanks for answers.

 

Edit for typo.

Edited February 11, 2018 by H2O

[brossard]

Hi H2O.  From what I've learned after being in 0 gauge for 14 months (30 years in 00) you've nailed it with your summary.  I agree that the turnout options have compromises.  I'm prepared to build my own turnouts using mostly Peco components and also C&L.  Copper clad timbers are a non starter for me.  I've done them in 00 but for 0 I think chairs are a must.

 

I suppose it comes down to where your priorities lie.  Peco turnouts are really quite good value I think.  If you're doing industrial, the set track turnouts might well fit the bill. 

 

I would draw your attention to the Little Loco Co. Ruston petrol shunter, due out this year.  I'm looking for an excuse to get one.

 

John

Edited February 11, 2018 by brossard

[Ian Kirk]

Hi,

Your summary is pretty well complete.  The "box" on the Peco points houses the spring that locks it once thrown.  Removal ,means self locking point motors or locking point levers. Even painting the rivet fitting of the point blades does much to hide this.   Also remember that in industrial/mining/dockside locations track was often inset this would mean that solder construction of inset points can be used as you do not see the chairs anyway. For minimum space, hidden sector plate or traverser can reduce the number of points required.

 

best wishes,

 

Ian

[Simond]

Agree with your summary, but would say that if you learn to file up your own vees, and blades, the cost of home-made drops dramatically. Certainly around the £10-15 rather than £25-30 mark. It takes about three goes to get a point that you’ll be proud of, though they’ll all work if you keep trying. I reckon it takes about two or three modelling sessions of a couple of hours each to build a “standard” point - but who’s rushing?

 

Templot takes a bit of work to learn, but will print out a template for your first point within five minutes, and you choose the angle and blade size (which implies the “radius”) to suit your track plan - indeed, if you don’t bother with the more advanced capabilities, you can learn everything you need to know in less than an hour, and print a few templates! OTOH, if you do, your track can flow much more like the real thing than you could do with any other method.

 

And if you want to be a rivet counter, you can have the right chairs throughout the turnout, as well as on the plain track, C&L have a range of chairs, and a few modellers have created 3D models which are available on shapeways etc.

 

And you can easily adopt 0-MF 31.5 Gauge, which gives much better running, without having to modify your rolling stock.

 

I’m struggling to imagine any justification for doing anything else, but then I’m biased!

 

Best

Simon

[bgman]

I would tend to agree with Simons comments regarding the building of pointwork.

 

If you are able to build your own, especially to 31.5 gauge then you will definitely notice a difference in running standards over the frog area. I have used the Roxey fold up gauges throughout the building of my points and am very happy with the product ( others are available ).

 

As a recent "convert" to this scale I am really pleased to see the difference and presents of the stock and locos on handbill track work, albeit I haven't fully completed my proposal to date.

 

The use of individual chairs has evaded me due to the current supply situation from the supplier ( not a criticism ) and I wanted to crack on, so to speak. To that end I have commenced making my pointwork using copper clad sleepers laid on Templot plans.

 

Ok, I accept the shortcomings of realistic chairs, and there can be a few slight problems if you cut them up for placement. I have solved this to a greater extent and the flanges of my rolling stock don't bounce on them, which can be a problem.

 

I have used the Peco Individulay chairs which are trimmed back and applied to the sleepers with superglue and even when the whole point has been cleaned up to be rid of any residue they have all remained intact.

 

Here are two which have recently been built, the double slip was a heart in mouth job but it does work very well. I intend to use proprietary stretcher bars once I get to that stage, and have ordered them, meanwhile there are temporary ties in place.

 

 

I think it is worth the time and I have found it to be very satisfying so far.

 

Grahame

 

 

[bgman]

Should you wish to go down the route of altering the Peco point "coffin" there is a useful article in one of the Gauge O Guild Gazettes if you are able to get hold of one dated May 2013 Volume 18 No 11 which shows 19 photographs together with an easy to follow description at each stage of alteration.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Grahame

 

p.s. There is also a drop-in unit now being released for the frog area to help with the wheel drop problems which may be encountered ( sorry I can't recall who makes it ).

[Chris Turnbull]

Peco components are very effective for making your own points.  Here's a sample of some I have made myself including filing the switch blades and crossing vee.  

 

 

 

 

The clamp-lock mechanism is made from scraps of brass, Plasticard and even a cocktail stick so it doesn't have to cost a lot.  I appreciate this is probably a bit too modern for you but the principle applies to all generations of pointwork.  The switch is powered by a Tortoise point motor acting on the right-hand switch blade.

 

Chris Turnbull

 

[Simond]

That’s mighty tidy, Chris. Very nice.

 

Best

Simon

[bgman]

Peco components are very effective for making your own points.  Here's a sample of some I have made myself including filing the switch blades and crossing vee.  

 

Point.JPG

 

Clamp lock 1.JPG

 

Clamp lock 2.JPG

 

The clamp-lock mechanism is made from scraps of brass, Plasticard and even a cocktail stick so it doesn't have to cost a lot.  I appreciate this is probably a bit too modern for you but the principle applies to all generations of pointwork.  The switch is powered by a Tortoise point motor acting on the right-hand switch blade.

 

Chris Turnbull

 

Agree with Simon, nice work Chris.

 

May I ask, have you used the Peco sleepers and if so what did you use to glue the components together.  The reason I ask is that I have found the only adhesive that has worked for me is a gel type superglue for attaching the chairs.

 

Grahame

[bgman]

I've also experimented with obechi strip wood cut to size for the sleepers and the Peco products.

 

This is next to an Individulay point again for experimenting. I would state that these have been made in an effort to cut down on the cost elements and I think the each one has probably cost me around roughly £10 to produce.

 

 

Grahame

 

 

 

 

[Chris Turnbull]

May I ask, have you used the Peco sleepers and if so what did you use to glue the components together.  The reason I ask is that I have found the only adhesive that has worked for me is a gel type superglue for attaching the chairs.

 

Yes, I did use Peco sleepers and, yes, I did have trouble sticking the Pandrol clips to them.  I made these points 13 or 14 years ago so my memory is a bit hazy but after a few disasters such as disintegrating pointwork I think I used a runny type of superglue which was the only thing I could find that did the job.  I preferred runny to gel as it ran into the joint better.

 

Chris Turnbull

[bgman]

Thank you Chris, very much appreciated.

 

Ironically a telephone call to Mr.Pecaboo resulted in the reply "Its just trial and error until you find the correct adhesive !" 

[peter220950]

Hard to add much to what has been said above, but for what it's worth here are my thoughts, if only to reinforce the previous advice.

 

I would never spend money on RTR points, because I'm too mean! There's nothing wrong with them, but your summary almost confirms your unhappiness at the look of them.

 

Building your own is by far the best option to fit the track exactly to your requirements, I have always struggled with Templot, but that's my deficiency, it's worth persevering if only to get templates, and if you get on well with it you can design the whole coherent track plan.

 

 

 

Excuse the rust, I used steel rail and it's been in the roof a while, but I think it shows the benefit of doing it yourself.

 

Rail is relatively cheap, that leaves chairs and sleepering, the Exactoscale chairs were, to my mind, the best, I'm unsure if you can get them at present, but C&L are perfectly good, although probably the most expensive bit of the build.

 

For sleepering I use hardwood, cut to size by a local model boat supplier, batches of around 25 strips are selotaped into a block and chop sawed to length in bundles. The sleepers are around 6mm x 3mm

 

 

Point timbering of around 8mm x 3mm was also purchased at the same time, and is quite cost effective, the sleepering is stained with wood dye prior to use.

 

 

If you've built 00 points you should have no problem in O, and I would urge you to have a go, if experience tells me anything it's that compromise will cause you to be unhappy in the future, the cost of making one point isn't likely to break the bank and may well solve your dilemma.

 

Peter

 

P.S. as a final thought, you could try soldering up a point on pcb sleepering as a exercise in the mechanics of building a point, at very little cost. If you want any pcb sleepering drop me a p.m. I bought a load of rail at Bristol that came with loads of pcb that I will never use. The other thing to consider is burying the track in ash or concrete, leaving little showing and negating the need for chairs.

Edited February 11, 2018 by peter220950

[F-UnitMad]

Not sure if O Scale points to American geometry are any use to those modelling UK outline, but the Templates by Fastracks are easily accessed, & free to download. Might be easier than having to learn something like Templot first?

 

Using these templates, I've hand-laid my own switches on my American layout, with parts from Right-O-Way. On my British O layout I used Peco points & track, so I can't advise further!!

[brossard]

Agree with Simon, nice work Chris.

 

May I ask, have you used the Peco sleepers and if so what did you use to glue the components together.  The reason I ask is that I have found the only adhesive that has worked for me is a gel type superglue for attaching the chairs.

 

Grahame

 

Grahame, I've built turnouts with Peco components.  I used Butanone/MEK to stick the chairs to the timbers.  Mine tended to curl up at the crossing so I did something wrong.  These were those throw aways that Simon referred to.    I may just get some wooden timbers from Intentio and have a go with those. Again MEK will stick the chairs to the wood.

 

John

[bgman]

Grahame, I've built turnouts with Peco components.  I used Butanone/MEK to stick the chairs to the timbers.  Mine tended to curl up at the crossing so I did something wrong.  These were those throw aways that Simon referred to.    I may just get some wooden timbers from Intentio and have a go with those. Again MEK will stick the chairs to the wood.

 

John

 

 

Hi John,

 

I agree with the use of both Butanone / MEK however, without a full mask and windows wide open I cannot use either ! Damn nuisance but hey ho !

 

Thank you anyway, and yes I'd forgotten about those Intentio sleepers, they seen like good value.

 

Grahame

[Happy Hippo]

I've used Butanol to fix Peco bullhead chairs to both Peco plastic and timber sleepering with good results.

[bgman]

I've used Butanol to fix Peco bullhead chairs to both Peco plastic and timber sleepering with good results.

 

May i ask who supplies it please ?

[martin_wynne]

Not sure if O Scale points to American geometry are any use to those modelling UK outline, but the Templates by Fastracks are easily accessed, & free to download. Might be easier than having to learn something like Templot first?

 

If you just want printed templates (and have a printer) you don't need to "learn" Templot. Just follow this video and print whatever you want within a couple of minutes:

 

 https://flashbackconnect.com/Default.aspx?id=uHfRyKwVkl1qfdzC5Az3HA2

 

Printing your own means you can have any size you like, including curved turnouts, and they match UK practice.Templot is free to download and use.

 

After you have installed Templot you can watch the video in better quality on Templot's own player.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[brossard]

May i ask who supplies it please ?

 

I got my Butanone from C&L but with the new ownership I don't know what the availability is.  I got a liter of MEK (same as Butanone BTW) from a local hardware store, a cheaper option if you can find it.  I see Eileens Emporium stocks Butanone and MekPak.  Shipping of chemicals is via courrier I believe.

 

John

 

PS - I have made a turnout using copper clad strip.  This one came out well but I did have to play around with blade - stock rail gap to optimise.  The big drawback I found was thickening the timbers with Evergreen strip.  I'm using it in my fiddle yard so the lack of chairs is not an issue.

 

PPS - another thing I'll point out is that if you are too tight to buy Peco turnouts and are happy to use their geometry, you can download templates from Peco's site.

Edited February 11, 2018 by brossard

[bgman]

Lots of interesting replies here fellas, I hope we haven't frightened H2O off !

[Simond]

I bought a litre of Butanone / MEK on eBay last month. About a tenner from memory.

Can always share with a few mates - get them to bring their own bottles!

 

And it’s better than some of the other commercial kit-solvents at doing plasticard and plastic kits too. I think some of the commercial stuff is “watered down”, but I’ve no idea with what!

 

Best

Simon

Edited February 12, 2018 by Simond

[Jintyman]

I agree with the above regarding building your own turnouts as I went down that route myself to 31.5mm (O-MF)for better running.

 

I have used the Intentio wooden sleepers throughout and I stain them first with a Rustins wood stain (Colour to choice) and glued C&L chairs to the wood with no failures at all.

If, as Simon says, you make your own Vees and blades, it cuts the costs down to well below the cost of a Peco point.

 

I think Phil at Intentio had some sort of offer on his sleepers recently.

As for C&L I can't comment about delivery/ordering as I haven't run out of anything since the change of ownership, but the quality of the rail and chairs is excellent.

 

I also purchased MEK on-line in a litre bottle which is a lot cheaper than buying the branded 'Butanone' and works exactly the same.

 

 

Here is a picture of my hand built, showing the necessity of using hand built track.

All built to O-MF and works very well indeed, I'm glad to say.

 

 

 

Enjoy your foray into 7mm, I was modelling in 4mm mainly, and went to 7mm a few years ago and haven't looked back.

 

Jinty

 

 

 

[dpgibbons]

David - you imply that butanone will securely attach C&L plastic chairs to wooden sleepers - can you confirm that's what you used please?

[Jintyman]

David - you imply that butanone will securely attach C&L plastic chairs to wooden sleepers - can you confirm that's what you used please?

 

 

Hi dpgibbons,

 

I can confirm that I've used both Butanone (branded) from C&L and I've also used MEK (from Ebay) on my plastic chairs to ply sleepers and it is a solid joint.

 

Jinty