RMweb Gold big jim Posted February 21, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 21, 2018 The link is on page 2 but here it is again http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/69543-big-jims-roundy-roundy-shed-layout-trains-running-again/?p=983753 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamespetts Posted February 21, 2018 Author Share Posted February 21, 2018 My apologies for missing that: thank you for re-posting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold teaky Posted February 22, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 22, 2018 Thank you all for your replies. Big Jim - I cannot immediately seem to find your shed thread - have you a link? It would be interesting to see your configuration. I should note that the people who make this shed include all the insulation and electrical connexions as part of the price. Would three large windows on the long wall (with curtains and/or blinds) be suitable, do people think? I cannot advise on the number of windows but earlier posts regarding preventing strong sunlight hitting the layout very sensible. I don't imagine that the choice of curtains or blinds is critical but you will need to make sure there are no gaps, e.g. you wouldn't want to draw the curtains and go on holiday only to find on your return that there was a gap which resulted in a faded stripe across your favourite building or loco. For this reason I'd be looking at blinds I think. Have you considered solid shutters? They might also add to the security. Another thing to think about is that if the interior of the shed is in a pale colour then the amount of light bounced around will be considerable which might reduce the number of windows required. Do the shed suppliers have any examples you could view in order to gauge light levels? Please note that I have no specific experience of sheds but I'm hoping my thoughts will help you crystalise what you want. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 Regarding windows, how about boarding off those which are not required, so at a later date reversal would be an easy option Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davetheroad Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 Regarding windows why have any at all, especially in the door? If you need light on your modelling bench equip the shed with daylight temperature lighting plus a couple of extra lamps for the bench. My place has a combination of long fluorescent tubes and moveable fittings, 8 in all. You will need to provide ventilation of course but no windows makes security easier. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ianLMS Posted February 22, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 22, 2018 I would have 2 or 3 small windows, but would possibly tint them, fit bars on the inside, use blinds, and if you go away on holidays frequently, shutters on the outside. Adequate ventilation is another consideration, especially when you start to use glue and paint - definitely if an airbrush is being employed!! Either a good extraction system or opening windows, however opening windows create additional security concerns so an alarm would be another must. Adequate LED lighting would help if its too dark. The daylight downlighters I just fitted in my kitchen for £5 each off Ebay are excellent, very bright, super-slim (12mm deep) and very easy to fit if you have a false ceiling which would also help with insulatation. You can position them above your workbench and layout for little cost and they use hardly any energy, or put out heat. Insurance companies will provide cover for outbuildings, but they will want to know it has adequate security to protect the contents - ie suitable locks on doors and windows. I would also fit a hard wired smoke alarm and have a fire extinguisher near the entrance. How is the room going to be heated? I assume those new super efficient electric heaters which you could set on tickover when u aren't in the room? large temperature fluctuations probably don't help the layout either so keeping it stable might help as well. You are giving me lots to think about for a similar idea I have in my garden and I do like the look of the building you have selected. I too ruled out the loft even though I would have around 25 x 20 usable feet due to the complexity of the work needed and cost. However, I might be able to have a 30 x 8 ft building in the back garden if I can convince SWMBO'd the benefit it would have!! Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 A consideration about windowless outbuildings, or one with windows covered up. I have a well-insulated, sectional wooden building as a music studio (okay, I play the drums...) which, to improve sound proofing, is windowless. Obviously with the lights out it is completely dark inside. In the event of a power cut, and to prevent me breaking my neck whilst stumbling over cymbal stands etc., I have a rechargeable light constantly plugged in which has a sensor and comes on if it loses power. Just a precaution worth thinking about should you go down that route. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 Regarding windows why have any at all, especially in the door? If you need light on your modelling bench equip the shed with daylight temperature lighting plus a couple of extra lamps for the bench. My place has a combination of long fluorescent tubes and moveable fittings, 8 in all. You will need to provide ventilation of course but no windows makes security easier. Back to the shipping container idea. Bernard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davetheroad Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 Back to the shipping container idea. Bernard Not wide enough? If I was going to build a new layout the minimum width would be 2.7 metres clear, enough for 0.9m baseboards down the sides and a 0.9m operating well, trouble is you realise you need to win the lottery to afford a house with a big enough garden Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Hayter Posted February 22, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 22, 2018 Regarding windows, how about boarding off those which are not required, so at a later date reversal would be an easy option Or applying a French twist to the idea; add wooden shutters to the outside. When closed virtually no light gets in. You can open the windows for ventilation but leave the shutters closed if you want to restrict the light coming in. They latch from the inside and so provide another layer of security (in fact our house insurance is significantly reduced because we have shutters fitted. And if you ever come to sell up, open them up and make the shed (sorry pied a terre) look attractive. One question that has not been asked - unless I missed it - which direction will the windows face? If to the North then you really should not have a big problem with light - probably still wise to take some precautions however. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamespetts Posted February 22, 2018 Author Share Posted February 22, 2018 Thank you all for your thoughts. The windows all face north, apart from the window by the door, which faces west (but is likely to be shaded by the house most of the time). I do not want to have a windowless shed - that would be very depressing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted February 23, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 23, 2018 Some years ago in 2015, shortly after I moved into my present house, I considered completing a railway layout that I had started, with assistance from my father, back in the early 1990s when I was a young lad but which had never been completed. I posted a thread about it on this forum, the upshot of which was that the attic in which I was thinking of completing such a layout did not seem suitable and in any event that it would probably be better to start from scratch than try to revive an old layout now in poor condition; at the time, having recently moved house, I did not think that the amount of effort and money required would be feasible, and I had worked out that I would not have been able to do what I wanted to do in the space available in the loft (4.1m x 3.1m) so I left the matter there and have not done any railway modelling since. However, I have of late been overtaken by an urge to try railway modelling again. I still live in the same house, none of whose main rooms are available for railway modelling purposes. I should like to build a new layout, and have worked out that I can fit what I consider to be an interesting design into a 4m x 3m space (and probably a slightly more interesting design into a 4.1m x. 3.1m space - I had not found my records of the exact measurements of the loft when I was preparing the plans). Loft I have spent some considerable time researching building regulation issues relating to lofts. The regulations themselves are drawn very vaguely and thus appear to leave a great deal of room for differing interpretations; the most authoritative guidance on how they are likely in practice to be interpreted by local authorities that I have been able to find is here. According to that website, As I understand the regulations, the critical issue is not so much how people actually use the room, but rather whether the characteristics of the room are consistent with it being used as a "residential room" (sometimes called "habitable room"). Thus, if I have understood the regulations correctly, there would be no (legal) issue with me building and using a model railway in a loft that is not a "residential room", but if I were to change the loft so that it becomes like a residential room (e.g., by adding insulation to the inside of the roof), Building Regulations compliance would be required. As should be apparent from the pictures on my earlier thread, the loft already has lighting and flooring. Compliance with the Regulations would be impractical in my situation: I do not wish to make the sort of major changes to the main part of the house (installation of fixed stairs and consequent changes to the landing, removing the original, period Edwardian wooden doors and replacing them with modern fire doors, etc.) that would be required for Building Regulations compliance. Thus, if I am to use the loft, it will have to be used largely as it is, with limited insulation from outside temperature differences, wiring only for lighting, cross braces of wood in the main walking space, and no natural light or ventilation. I could have a built-in loft ladder fitted (I currently have to get a portable ladder from the garden to access the attic), and possibly also a Velux window without invoking the Building Regulations (at least, the people who sell a combination of fixed ladders and Velux windows implicitly seem to think so). I should have to work around the cross-members, use a portable electric heater in the winter, endure the heat in the summer, and use a long extension cord from the sockets on the landing to power the layout (and heater in winter). Has anyone here any experience of using an unconverted loft to house a model railway and whether it is merely sub-optimal or whether it is irredeemably unsuitable? seems to have put a model railway in an unconverted loft which looks very similar to mine (although he did insulate the roof with stapled on foil and paint the brickwork, as well as adding power sockets - query whether this would invoke the Building Regulations), and there seem to be layouts in unconverted lofts. Shed The only other possibility is to have a substantial shed built at the bottom of the garden. That would give me a similar space to the loft (possibly slightly (~20cm in width) more as there would be no chimney breast) and would not have the cross-member, insulation and ventilation issues of the attic, as well as not needing to climb a ladder to reach it. Having looked into the matter, given the size of shed/outhouse that I could fit into my garden, planning permission would not be required, and Building Regulations would not apply either (provided that the building meet certain relatively easy to accommodate criteria). However, my garden is small, and I have recently had work done to it, some of which would have to be undone to accommodate an outhouse. Also, these sheds seem to be fantastically expensive (my research so far suggests £10-£20,000 for a shed of similar dimensions to the loft space). Prefabricated sheds seem to be a little cheaper, but I have no as of right rear access to my property, and one cannot (presumably) drag a concrete shed through the hallway, dining room and kitchen of a small terraced house. Rear access is physically possible, but the land to the rear, which comprises an access drive for a set of three modern terraced houses built in the middle of a triangle of land bounded on each side by back gardens of much older terraces, is privately owned by a local property developer who seems to let the property to tenants on leases short enough not to show up on the Land Registry. I could seek permission for access for a lorry to unload a prefabricated shed, but I am not sure what, if any, response that I might get to such a request, or even whether the owner's address as found on the Land Registry is up to date. Also, security in a shed is a concern: burglars would have difficulty getting into the main house, let alone the attic, but a shed is a much easier target, especially as they tend to be less substantially built. I could not sensibly drag all the various items of rolling stock from house to shed and shed to house every time that I wanted to go and use a model railway. Has anyone here any experience of shed building for model railway purposes and in particular any insights into the issues that I outline above? I should be very grateful for any insight. Shed costing, say, £15k is not going to be any more expensive than getting the loft up to a decent standard for use as space for a layout. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamespetts Posted February 23, 2018 Author Share Posted February 23, 2018 Shed costing, say, £15k is not going to be any more expensive than getting the loft up to a decent standard for use as space for a layout. Perhaps - but it will be much less disruptive to my house which I like to keep in as close to its original condition as possible, and allow for much more linear space. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 You are correct that cost is one element in the factor of where you build your layout. The other factor in going up into the loft is the impact it has on the other rooms in the house, so it may well cost the same going into the loft, but may have a negative impact on a bedroom(s) and in the worst case have a negative impact of the desirability of the property on the open market. When we moved my layout was to be banished out of the house into a garden shed, I started to price up a shed at the same time getting plans and pricing a rear house extension. It soon became clear that I could build a permanent structure for about the same price as building a habitable shed. However if the space was fully integrated with the extension and its position within the property rearranged, both the visual look of the property would benefit as well as being able to improve the aspect of the kitchen family room, it was at the expense of a slightly smaller railway room, but the railway room benefited with better security, heating and access from inside the property. In short each situation will throw up its own benefits and disadvantages, and may result in a different choice after weighing up all the pro's and con's each time 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold bourneagain Posted February 23, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 23, 2018 The one consideration that hasn`t yet been mentioned is the energy costs of the heating of your detached shed, that is, if you are planning to use it during the winter months. What form of heating are you planning to use, electric, natural or calor-gas, oil or even a wood burning stove? These running costs must be factored in, as it’s fairly obvious that the larger the building the greater these running costs will be. My railway room is situated in a detached 5m x 5m double garage, the walls, ceiling and doors have all been insulated. As it`s not possible to have this building connected to my gas central heating system, which would be the cheapest form of heating, the heat is provided by a 2.55kw automatic storage heater on a 7 hour cheap rate charge. This heater just about provides an adequate background heat throughout most of the day during the winter months Oct – March, except on the occasional days when the outside temperature is particular low and I will resort to switching on a small convector heater late in the afternoon to boost the temperature, as I can no longer work efficiently in the cold. The average running costs for just this one storage heater equates to £150 per year + additional costs when I switch on the small convector heater. And I do shop around to get the best energy deals. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamespetts Posted February 23, 2018 Author Share Posted February 23, 2018 I was planning to use electricity to heat the shed in winter, using one of those combined heaters/air conditioners mounted on the wall. The shed is insulated, so it should at least be not too inefficient. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buhar Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 An electric underfloor heating mat might be an idea. I understand the running costs are quite reasonable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londoner Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 Hi James, I found your topic very interesting as I had a similar dilemma two or three years ago when planning a layout of my own. I ruled out my loft because, although a reasonable size, it has a low ceiling and is obstructed with bracing timbers. I’ve got a reasonable size garden and access from the street on both sides, so decided on a shed in the garden. We didn’t want it to spoil the view looking into the garden, so I chose to place it to one side. I wanted a 40’ x 12’ shed, but to be able to locate it unobtrusively, without damaging one of our 450 year old oaks, ended up with 20’ x 10’ shed with the idea of adding a 20’ x 8’ shed end to end and knocked through, at a later date. I bought a Tiger Sheds Workshop for about £1800, ready mix concrete for a 3’- 4’ base and £350 for the hire of a concrete pump to get the stuff from the truck in the road to the site in the garden. Fortunately, we have side access which eased delivery and the pumping. I chose the worshop, as opposed to an actual shed, for security reasons, (its got no windows). I’ve fitted beefed up door hinges, (bolted and not screwed). I insulated the shed with 100mm Celotex on the walls and ceiling and 25mm Celotex, (or was it 50mm), on the floor, covered with Wickes interlocking flooring. This has worked well, the shed costing very little to heat and it’s really cool in summer. However, ants love the Celotex and I’ve had some trouble of getting rid of them and keeping them out. Three ultrasonic insect repellents seem to have finally succeeded. I provided a power supply to a six way consumer unit in the shed with a four mil buried, armoured cable. I have a split consumer unit in the house, and used a spare MCB on the non RCD protected side. As is essential, the shed consumer unit is RCD protected, as required by the current BS7671, this is very important. Perversely, Building Regs Part P also mandates requirements for the electrics. I’ve installed a couple of rings with sockets around the floor, one ring for services and one for the model supply. As alluded to by one of your respondent posters, my dedication to the project has waxed and waned. I’ve completed a permanently installed baseboard and started on the model, but I haven’t added the second shed yet. I’ve added a couple of photos I took of the shed last summer. 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londoner Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 Addendum to my earlier post: the concrete cost £700 and the pump hire £350. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamespetts Posted February 24, 2018 Author Share Posted February 24, 2018 Gosh, you did all the work on that yourself? That is quite impressive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gismorail Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 Just catch up with this thread and know how you feel about what is best. I didn't have the option of the loft so a shed was the only way for me but I was of the opinion that the cost would be worth in the long run. you can follow my build if you go to A New Home needs a good shed ! Hope it helps Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ianLMS Posted February 26, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 26, 2018 Addendum to my earlier post: the concrete cost £700 and the pump hire £350. there's no button for "I have a serious case of modellers envy!!!" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damo666 Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 Back to the shipping container idea. Bernard Whilst I don't believe the OP is currently looking at this option, for anyone who may be, please be very aware of Condensation within the container. I briefly looked into this last year and felt the downside of damage outweighed the convenience of an instant and waterproof 'shed'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 Whilst I don't believe the OP is currently looking at this option, for anyone who may be, please be very aware of Condensation within the container. I briefly looked into this last year and felt the downside of damage outweighed the convenience of an instant and waterproof 'shed'. But, as explained , easy and cheap to fix. Bernard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junctionmad Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 I’m buildng my shed in cavity wall block , 6” cavity , pumped bead insulation , insulated floor , cheaper then the equivalent in good quality pressure treated larch. 10m by 3.5m Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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